SWAT Team overview.

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Blackfork

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From www.theagitator.com

Another One

The hits keep on comin':
Mary Silva, a 68-year-old retiree, said deputies got the wrong house when they burst into her Winton Way apartment at 6:30 a.m. on the day of the raids.

Silva said she was sleeping when she heard loud banging at her front door and a voice calling "Open up!"

Before she could answer, Silva said, deputies broke through her front door and threw a smoke bomb onto her carpet. As Silva stood in her nightgown, about 10 officers surrounded her with weapons drawn, she said.

They shouted, "Where is he? Where is he?"

Silva told deputies she lives alone. She said they responded, "Shut up! Don't move!"

The team was looking for 24-year-old Reginaldo Ramirez, who lives next door to Silva.

But the search warrant deputies gave Silva lists an entirely different address -- not Silva's house or the house next door. Silva said deputies gave her the search warrant several hours after the initial raid.

Pazin said deputies may have transposed numbers in the address on the warrant, but that law enforcement acted in good faith when they entered Silva's house.

Ramirez, who is the half-brother of Silva's grandson, listed Silva's address as his own when he was arrested Nov. 17, Pazin said.

Pazin said Ramirez could have listed Silva's address as his own during previous run-ins with the law and that the address could have been listed in law enforcement records in connection with Ramirez.

Silva said Ramirez has never lived at or visited her house.

If deputies made a mistake when they served the search warrant, Pazin said, the sheriff's department will pay to repair the damage to Silva's apartment, which includes a burn mark on the carpet and a fist-sized hole in the wall next to the front door.
Imagine if Ms. Silva had a gun, and was prepared to use it. Well, you can imagine exactly what would happen. Police would shirk responsibility for conducting a poorly investigated, poorly executed raid. How do I know? Because that's precisely what they did this time.
"Let's point the finger where the blame really belongs, at the individual who's using (Silva's) residence to conceal where he's really living," Pazin said. "It's unfortunate (Ramirez) was using some type of elderly relative to hide his true residence."No. That's what criminals do. They're nasty people. Police, on the other hand, are accountable to us. The least we can demand of them is that they do the necessary legwork before barging into our homes. Parzin's men failed the people they serve in that regard. They took the word of a criminal. They did no corroborating investigation to see that the address he listed was indeed where he lived, or to see if other, innocent people may live there. Not only that, but they then transposed the numbers on the search warrant. They erred. Big time. They ought to cop to it. That is precisely where the "finger of blame" ought to be pointed.
Silva said since the raid she can't stop shaking and is plagued by dreams about people knocking on her front door.

"I've never seen such nasty people in all my life," she said. "You don't talk to an old lady like that. At least show some respect."
May seem strange to her, but given what happened in Atlanta this week, she's ought to consider herself lucky.


Radley Balko | permalink | (0) track it | (0)



Context for Kathryn Johnston

When people like Kathryn Johnston or Cory Maye understandably mistake raiding police officers for criminal intruders, police and prosecutors are rather unforgiving, particularly if the warrant was "legal." People like Maye and Johnston are supposed to show remarkable poise and judgment, despite the fact that armed men are breaking into their homes..

When police make mistakes, however, they're nearly always forgiven. Because we're supposed to understand how an officer in such a volatile situation might misjudge an everyday object for a gun, or shoot a completely innocent, unarmed man -- all perfectly understandable, given the volatile, confrontational circumstances surrounding SWAT raids. Such deaths -- while tragic -- are mere collateral damage. We have to keep fighting the war on drugs. And we have to protect our police officers by allowing them to break down doors while people are sleeping. The deaths of a few innocent people are the price we pay for the privilege of having the government tell us what we are and aren't allowed to put into our bodies.

It's an abhorrent double standard. Below, I've listed some cases that illustrate it. The cases below tend to be below-the-radar cases. The list doesn't include higher-profile deaths like those of Clayton Helriggle, Mario Paz, Alberto Sepulveda, or Donald Scott, among others, because most people who've been reading this site for a while already know about them (if you're interested, I'd encourage you to Google those names).

Here, a brief list of cases to put the Ms. Johnston's death into its proper context. Let's start in Georgia:

# Xavier Bennett: In 1991, police in Dekalb County conduct a 2:30am no-knock raid on the home of Bobby Bowman, a man they suspect of possessing cocaine. They were right. He did, though only enough to identify him as a user, not a dealer. What they didn't expect is that his 8-year-old stepson Xavier Bennett would be inside, too. When Bowman, who says he thought he was being invaded, met police with a gun, the boy was killed in the crossfire. No disciplinary actions were taken against the police.

So police conduct a dangerous no-knock on a home where a child's inside. The child dies. Police blame the father of the child for (1) possessing cocaine, and (2) not realizing the raiding party was police.


# Deputy John Whitehead. In 2006, police in Macon conduct a 1:30 am raid on a suspected drug house. Residents of the house say they were startled from sleep, believed they were being robbed, and shot to defend themselves. In the process, the shoot and kill Dep. Whitehead. Once the resident realize they're being raided by police and not gang members, they surrender immediately. Prosecutors charge all five residents with murder, including two who had nothing to do with the shooting, one who wasn't even home at the time of the raid. Two face the death penalty. The sheriff later says of the raid, "It just went wrong."

So if you mistake midnight-raiding police for intruders and there are drugs in your home, your mistake means the death penalty. If your roommates possess drugs and mistake raiding police for intruders and shoot and kill an officer, you're looking at a murder charge.

Source: Phillip Ramati and Joe Kovac Jr., "'It just went wrong,' sheriff says of slaying," Macon Telegraph, April 5, 2006.

Cheryl Lynn Noel. In January 2005, police in Baltimore conduct an early-morning, no-knock raid on the the Noel home after finding marijuana seeds and traces of cocaine in the family trash. Noel, who's step-daughter had been murdered years earlier, retrieves a legally registered handgun when she hears the sound of home invaders rushing up her steps. A SWAT officer kicks open her door, and Noel, in her nightgown, is clutching the gun, not pointed, when he enters. The SWAT officer, wearing a bulletproof vest and helmet, and carrying a bulletproof ballistics shield, hits Noel twice from the doorway, then shoots her a third time from point-blank range. She dies.

Noel had no criminal record (her husband did, but his offense took place 35 years ago). She conducted Bible-study classes on her lunch breaks. Twenty months after the raid, and probably not coincidentally just weeks after the Noel family filed a civil rights suit, the Baltimore County Police Department awarded the officer who shot and killed Noel a medal for "bravery, courage, and valor" in shooting her.

So if you're a woman whose daughter has been murdered, and you mistake raiding police for criminal intruders, your punishment is death, and the officer who shoots you not only isn't disciplined, he's given an award.

Sources: Joseph M. Giordano, "Woman is shot, killed by police in drug raid," Dundalk Eagle, January 27, 2005; Joseph M. Giordano, "Petition reflects anguish," Dundalk Eagle, March 31, 2005; my own reporting.

# Tony Martinez. On December 20, 2001, police in Travis County, Texas storm a mobile home on a no-knock drug warrant. Nineteen-year-old Tony Martinez, nephew of the man named in the warrant, is asleep on the couch at the time of the raid. Martinez was never suspected of any crime. When Martinez rises from the couch as police break into the home, deputy Derek Hill shoots Martinez in the chest, killing him. Martinez is unarmed.

A grand jury later declines to indict Hill in the shooting, and he continues his employment wit the police department. The same Travis County paramilitary unit would later erroneously raid a woman's home after mistaking ragweed for marijuana plants.

So if police conduct a no-knock raid and mistakenly kill a completely innocent, unarmed person, it's no one's fault, because these raids are naturally dangerous and volatile, and it's easy to see how mistaken identity might happen.

Sources: Clair Osborn, "Survivors sue Travis county over fatal raid," Austin American-Statesman, May 10, 2003, p. B1; Claire Osborn, "Deputy not indicted in drug raid death," Austin American-Statesman, April 4, 2002.

# Edwin Delamora. On February 15, 2001, the same task force that would later mistakenly shoot and kill Tony Martinez raids the Del Valle, Texas mobile home of Edwin Delamora, who lives with his wife and two children. As two deputies beat down his door with a battering ram, Delamora fires through the door, fearing he is under attack. His wife is on the phone with 911 at the time he fires. One bullet from his gun strikes and kills sheriff's deputy Keith Ruiz.

Delamora had no previous criminal record, and his defense says the raid on his home was influenced by an anonymous informant who turned out to be the brother of two sheriff's deputies. Information about the informant's relationship with the police was suppressed at trial.

Delamora was eventually convicted of capital murder, and sentenced to life in prison. Police found less than an ounce of methamphetamine and one ounce of marijuana in his home. Prosecutors declined to seek the death penalty because of substantial doubt about whether or not Delamora knew the people outside his door were police. That decision sparked heavy criticism from Texas Attorney General John Cornyn (now a U.S. Senator), who moved for a law requiring the death penalty to be an option in any capital murder case.

Time magazine would later report that people in the community were suspicious of the narcotics task force, describing the team's general attitude as "those task-force guys were Rambo wannabes."

So if men are attempting to break into your home, and you mistake them for criminal intruders -- bolstered by the fact that your wife calls 911 -- you get no deference for the volatility or confrontational nature of SWAT raids. Mistake a cop for an intruder when firing your gun, and you're going to jail for a long, long time. And God help you if there's some dope in your house, too. When a member of the same SWAT team later mistakes and unarmed, innocent man for a deadly threat, and consequently shoots and kills him, the police officer won't even be disciplined, much less sent to jail.

Sources: John Cloud, "Guarding Death's Door," Time, July 14, 2003; Jordan Smith, "Another Drug War Casualty," Austin Chronicle, July 19, 2002; "Delamora attorney says key facts were withheld," Austin American-Statesman, July 29, 2002, p. A1; "Cornyn: Death penalty must be option when officer killed," Associated Press, July 25, 2002.

# Meredith "Buddy" Sutherland. On October 4, 2002, police raid a home in Windsor, Pennsylvania on suspicion of drug activity. Once inside, police go from room to room in the dark home. Trooper Gregory Broaddus enters a bedroom where Meredith "Buddy" Sutherland, Jr. is sleeping. Sutherland doesn't live in the house, but is visiting a friend. Officer Broaddus mistakenly believes Sutherland to be clutching a weapon when he enters the room, and fires, striking Sutherland. Sutherland has no weapon, and would never be charged with a crime. He spent 11 days in a coma, and nearly three weeks in the hospital.

Other occupants of the home were eventually charged with drug crimes. Sutherland sued in June 2004 for redress for his injuries. The state attorney general in turn asked that the suit be dismissed, arguing that the officer in question had qualified immunity, and that, incredulously, Sutherland himself was responsible for his own injuries.

So if you are an innocent person visiting a friend whose roommates are involved in drug activity, if a police officer mistakes something you're holding as you're lying in your bed for a gun, it's your fault for, I guess, lying there so guilty-looking, and your punishment is eleven days in a coma.

Sources: Elizabeth Evans, "Man sues over drug-raid injury; SWAT-type team hit Windsor home," York Dispatch, June 9, 2004. Elizabeth Evans, "Shooting victim home; Family of man wounded in raid considers lawsuit," York Dispatch, October 23, 2002.

# James Hoskins. In February 2004, Middletown, Pennsylvania police storm the home of James Hoskins on a drug warrant. They are looking for Hoskins' brother Jim, whom they eventually arrest for possessing "a small amount of marijuana, a glass pipe, and about $622," according to the Philadelphia Inquirer.

From his bed, Hoskins hears the loud thud of police breaking into his home. Naked and unarmed, he gets up to investigate. As he approaches the door, a Middletown detective pushes his way into Hoskins' bedroom. Hoskins and his girlfriend say the detective never identified himself. The detective fires, and later explains that he mistook the t-shirt Hoskins was using to cover his genitals for a gun. The bullet enters Hoskins' abdomen, and rips through his stomach, small intestine, and colon. It eventually lodges in his leg, which must later be amputated.

It isn't until weeks later, after he emerges from a coma, that Hoskins learns the man who shot him is a police officer, and not a criminal intruder. Remarkably, the Middletown Township police department saw no need to conduct an internal investigation of the shooting until prodded by the district attorney. The officer who shot Hoskins would never be disciplined.

So if a police officer mistakes a t-shirt for a gun and shoots an innocent man, we should give him the benefit of the doubt, given the volatile and confrontational nature of SWAT raids.

Sources: Larry King, "Man shot in apartment by police hopes for justice," Philadelphia Inquirer, April 7, 2004; "Pennsylvania Police Fail To Investigate Shooting of Unarmed Man," Associated Press, September 3, 2004; Laurie Mason and Harry Yanoshak, "Cop cleared in shooting of unarmed man," Bucks County Courier Times, April 23, 2004; Larry King, "Middletown settles police shooting; A Bristol Twp. Man had sued after a Feb. raid targeting his brother left him without his left leg," Philadelphia Inquirer, January 16, 2005, p. B8.


There are more examples, of course. Far, far too many more. See here.

Radley Balko | permalink | (0) track it | (0)


More Thoughts on Johnston, Raids

Defenders of the police tactics used in this case take a rather open-and-shut, legalistic approach to all of this. That is, if the warrant was legal, the police had the right to be at the home. And if the police had the right to be at the home, Johnston -- or anyone else in a similar position -- has no right to defend their home from them.

Of course, the mere legality of the warrant might have little to do with whether or not the warrant was correct. For example, a drug dealer might conduct a couple transactions from the porch of your house while you aren't home. Not much you can do about that. Or -- here's a possibility -- if you could win the trust of a frail, 92-year-old woman, her house would make great cover for a small-time dope peddler, wouldn't it?

The apologists say that if the warrant is legal, and the police have the right to be there, you're pretty much screwed. If the police storm in and you -- not being a drug dealer and consequently having no reason to think the police might break into your home -- mistake them for criminal intruders and meet them with a gun, you are at fault. I guess your crime is living in an area where drug dealers could use your porch while you aren't home, or being a too trusting, frail, old woman. Sorry about your luck.

On the other hand, if the police break into your home and they mistake the blue cup, TV remote, the t-shirt you're holding to cover your genitals because they broke in while you were sleeping naked, or the glint off your wristwatch for a gun -- and subsequently shoot you (all of these scenarios have actually happened), well, then no one is to blame. Because, you see, SWAT raids are inherently dangerous and volatile, and it's perfectly understandable how police might mistake an innocent person holding a t-shirt for a violent drug dealer with gun.

Do you see the double standard, here? If the warrant is legit, they are allowed to make mistakes. You aren't.

This discrepancy grows all the more absurd when you consider that they have extensive training, you don't. They have also spent hours preparing for the raid. You were startled from your sleep, and have just seconds to make a life-or-death decision. To top it all off, many times they've just deployed a flashbang grenade that is designed to confuse and disorient you.

What's the solution? It isn't to encourage people to start shooting raiding cops to kill. That kind of talk is foolish, and needs to stop. But it isn't to encourage to people to refrain from defending their homes, either. Both of those suggestions will lead to more people dying -- both police and citizens.

The solution is actually pretty simple: Stop invading people's homes for nonviolent offenses.

Radley Balko | permalink | (0) track it | (0)

This is HEAVILY edited down due to posting constraints.

There is a big difference in LEO-bashing and letting the chips fall as they may.
 
Emotional distress lawsuits on the horizon.


I should unload my HD guns and wait for my house to get raided. My neighbor did get busted for smoking pot 15 years back.


Ohh yeah, new car, flat screen, and a donation for THR on the horizon.
 
RE:68 year old woman

I live not too far from there, & Winton is a somewhat troubled, unincorporated portion of the county. Transposed the house numbers?
Damn, I'm dyslexic, but 10 guys on the team got it wrong?
Alot of people in Merced Co., CA are a little less than pleased with Sheriff Mark Pazin for that kind of thing & the preferential treatment his brother has recieved from the local constabulary for DUI.
We're workin' on it.
Hud
 
I'm a bit confused...

about the source of the confusion... it seems the police spoke (points for the literary reference) is a bit also....

Was it a transposition of house numbers?
Pazin said deputies may have transposed numbers in the address on the warrant, but that law enforcement acted in good faith when they entered Silva's house.

Or was it that Ramirez put down a false address?
Pazin said Ramirez could have listed Silva's address as his own during previous run-ins with the law and that the address could have been listed in law enforcement records in connection with Ramirez.

It would be a big coincidence indeed if the transposed numbers resulted in an different address connected to the one guy they were looking for.....

migoi
 
Last edited:
Any transposition of numbers, or someone giving the wrong address is irrelevent.
Who did the (non) investigation. Who confirmed that that imformation was correct.
Who signed the warrant. In order to issue a search warrant, there needs to be a clear and compelling reason to Violate The Constitutional Rights of a Citizen. It is a Violation of rights.
Every time it is wrong, the judge should be held accountable.

Warrants are being writen too easily.
 
Well, I guess I'll have to start chastizing the postmaster for the letter carrier that delivers mail to me that is addressed to someone else at a different address :). I hope that is the worst that ever happens.
Regards, Hud
 
It seems that this is becoming a common occurence. I always see these shows about high tech LE gear and new highspeed low drag tactics. Yet nobody ever seems to check the house or make sure the dude they are looking for is acutally there.

Seems that this would save us taxpayers a lot of money.

Anyways IBTL.
 
but that law enforcement acted in good faith when they entered Silva's house.
She should be thankful they were "acting in good faith" and didn't gun her down like a certain 92-year old woman who was defending herself from a home invasion. :fire:
 
no knock and such

time to do away with "no knock" warrants-no excuses, rationalizations, or pleadings that the "public safety" requires them. just say no. warrants in general need to be tightened up-can't be issuing them off a postit pad. and, we can do with far fewer swat teams and much less of the "swat" mentality so prevalent in law enforcement today. you give people a monopoly on anything-guns(leo), drugs(doctors), law(lawyers), car insurance(insurance corps.), and you will will be screwed. those who advocate for all this regulating and control are nothing less than the enemies of human dignity, not the supporters of security and sanity they purport to be.
 
I wish we had better data as to how many such raids are performed, so we'd have some notion about how many screwups are made.

Two things seem to stand out, however, from such information as is available: The Establishment goes into CYA mode, and is hostile against innocent people. And, the Establishment policies vary from use only in a fully justifiable situation to over-use of SWAT teams where other means are rational.

Untill the public at large puts pressure on elected officials, policies won't change. This includes redress for any wrongful actions as well as a helpful attitude, immediately, toward those who were at that "wrong address".

Instead of venting here at THR, it would be better to start talking to your own elected officals: In advance of "Oops! Wrong address."

Art
 
GTSteve03 wrote:

She should be thankful they were "acting in good faith" and didn't gun her down like a certain 92-year old woman who was defending herself from a home invasion.

i wouldn't call that a home invasion. it was a lawful search warrant. there is a big difference.

In reference to the Atlanta PD warrant that resulted in the unfortunate killing of a 92 year old woman, remember that it was a lawfully issued warrant and that they served said warrant on the correct house. the "acting in good faith" is not even an issue in that case. it was a 100% legitimate warrant.

add that to the fact that the 92 year old woman shot 3 officers before they returned fire, i'd say while that was unfortunate, the officers who served this warrant should be exonerated for their actions. they didn't do anything illegal. the person who should be scrutinzed is the case agent (investigator who wrote the affidavit to get the search warrant) and the judge who signed it.

the guys who went and served the warrant aren't to blame. put yourself in their shoes. if someone has already shot at your co-workers and is continuing to shoot, are you going to take into consideration the age or gender of the shooter? probably not. they had to make a split second decision. they made it. and in my opinion, they were justified based upon the circumstances they were put in.
 
This post clearly denigrates police conduct. Why hasn't it been closed yet.
Posts that call to task law enforcement are routinely closed on this board. Why is this one not closed yet.
 
Two things seem to stand out, however, from such information as is available: The Establishment goes into CYA mode, and is hostile against innocent people. And, the Establishment policies vary from use only in a fully justifiable situation to over-use of SWAT teams where other means are rational.

Agreed, but its puzzeling that very few investigations are done my IA or anyone for that matter.

This post clearly denigrates police conduct. Why hasn't it been closed yet.
Posts that call to task law enforcement are routinely closed on this board. Why is this one not closed yet.

Why is discussing the actions of LE officers taboo or trying to become taboo? Hindsight is the job of the public.
 
SpreadfireArms,
You are right, You can't blame the guys who walked into it. They will have to deal with the murder of an old lady themselves.
What is upsetting is the complete lack of investigation, and that a warrant was issued in the first place.
These NO Knock raids are so wrong in there existance, I can't find words, save, Unconstitutional. But that has never stoped them before.
 
When's Oleg going to do some anti-"no-knock" warrent art work.

It would fit in well with his theme of 'abuse of power' and governments intoxicated with their self-appointed powers.

Current US SWAT procedures seem very similar to KGB actions, Gestapo, etc. Proper due process has been tossed out the window.

SoCalShooter: that thought occured to me too ;)
 
pcosmar wrote:

You are right, You can't blame the guys who walked into it. They will have to deal with the murder of an old lady themselves.

there was no murder. you are using inflammatory language. if you ask me, those officers fired in self defense. this lady was shooting a gun at them. what are you going to do if someone is shooting a gun at you? are you going to think that you "murdered" someone if they are shooting at you? i doubt it. listen to yourself. that's completely asinine. those officers fired after being fired upon. guess what? that's self defense.

What is upsetting is the complete lack of investigation, and that a warrant was issued in the first place.

i wouldn't say that. there needs to be an investigation before you get emotionally involved and getting "upset." as of now, the warrant appears lawful. the cops did a controlled buy at the location and served a lawful warrant on the premises after the buy was completed (and most likely documented on video). doesn't seem upsetting to me.

These NO Knock raids are so wrong in there existance, I can't find words, save, Unconstitutional. But that has never stoped them before.

i'm sure you are against no-knock warrants because nobody has ever told YOU to go serve a high risk warrant. the judge has the ultimate say if the warrant can be "no-knock." as such, the supervisory agent must ultimately use that at his discretion. a warrant can be endorsed as "no-knock" but the officers have the discretion to still knock and announce.

no-knock warrants are used for officer safety. if you have to knock and announce your presence, don't you suspect a bad guy can just go arm himself and shoot it out with you instead? that is why no-knock warrants exist and will continue to exist.

i think for those of us who have sat at a bad guy's door waiting to serve a high risk warrant, we understand the use and validity of no-knock warrants.

dave pro2a wrote:

Current US SWAT procedures seem very similar to KGB actions, Gestapo, etc. Proper due process has been tossed out the window.

due process is where the judge signs the warrant, otherwise, the cops could sign their own warrants. and please provide specific source cites that prove your statement that US SWAT procedures seem similar to actions of the KGB and Gestapo? i'd sure like to see those. or are you just merely conjecturing?
 
Spreadfire Arms,

I have never been in the position you describe, but I can imagine that no-knock raids serve a great benefit to the law enforcement community. I don't doubt this, and I don't doubt that they have saved LEO lives.

While I think that we should ensure the lives of our LEO's across the nation for the service that they do for us, I respectfully have to disagree with you about their validity as a law enforcement method. I will probably continue to disagree with you, but I would ask you to suggest solutions to the problem. My solution is simply to make them illegal, but I am willing to listen to your solutions that help reduce the innocent lives taken while increasing law enforcement's safety.

To be perfectly honest I don't think making them illegal is the best solution, but I also think that there needs to be alternatives explored. Situations like these tend to bring good-honest folks into doubt about the importance of LEO's in our communities.
 
Why shouldn't they be illegal? We managed to do without them for most of this nations history. There are many laws that we require our law enforcement to follow that has likely caused loss of their lives in this country. You could use the same argument to get rid of warrants all together or to use torture to get information from drug dealers, after all we could save lives and all that. "No knock" warrants are stupid and are exactly the kind of thing we fought the revolution over.
 
Another large part of the problem is the portayal in the media is also hurting the situations badly, the court of public opinion is convened and closed long before the investigation has started or finished to find the wrong doing.

It also seems to me that with a "no-Knock" warrant you had better have damn good info before you act, perhaps the "no knock" warrants lead to hastily gathered operations?
 
SpreadfireArms
Take a deep breath,calm. Though they are not legally liable,due to the warrant, they killed a 92yo woman who was defending herself in her own home. The Constitution of the United States, Says we have a Right to be secure in our homes.
The fault is, that there was NO investagation, the police did NOT know that she lived there. They did not know anything about where they were raiding.
They say they bought drugs there, But they don't know who they bought tem from.(john doe or sam).This was a Rubber Stamp Warrant with NO investigation.
This should never happen in America. Not once,not ever.
 
My solution is simply to make them illegal, but I am willing to listen to your solutions that help reduce the innocent lives taken while increasing law enforcement's safety.

if i had the solution then perhaps i'd win a Nobel prize. unfortunately i, as well as many others, don't have a "perfect" way to execute search warrants to ensure the safety of everyone. that is no different than the US military having to come up with the best strategy to invade a foreign country. yes, even with the most perfect plans, you can't completely reduce all lives lost to zero.

i think the problem with the media, and the pervasive attitude with many THR posters, is that somehow the police want to go to out and kill or hurt innocent people. that simply isn't the case. no-knock warrants are not designed so that the cops can kill someone. they are designed so that lives can be saved loss of life can be minimized.

you have to weigh the advantages vs. disadvantages of a knock-and-announce vs. a no-knock. if you knock and announce, and wait a "reasonable" amount of time for the guy to come to the door to let you in, then, yes, the bad guy can arm himself and this can lead to a shootout, hostage situation, or a barricaded person.

if you "no-knock," you obviously run into the scenario where the people inside don't seem to realize the police are there. never mind the fact that they are wearing "POLICE" markings all over their body, are all primarily dressed the same, have a marked police car outside with its lights flashing, are screaming "POLICE - SEARCH WARRANT!" over and over. yes, even for some, despite all of the objective evidence that says the police are there, they end up killed because they take up arms or for some other reason do not know the police are there.

what makes me wonder, in the original post of this thread, is that in the article quoted, the police shoot several people dead, who take up arms against the police during the execution of a search warrant. since those people were shot dead, how do we know why they picked up a weapon? the person who wrote the original article has assumed that they were picking up a weapon not thinking the police were there. again, it is all an assumption. the author of that article has never had a chance to interview any of the dead persons, because, they are DEAD. we don't know why they armed themselves. yes, it could be against a perceived home invasion. or it could be because they knew the police were there and had every intent of shooting it out with them.
 
"no different than the US military having to come up with the best strategy to invade a foreign country"

Having cops think and act like the military IS the problem.
 
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