SWAT Team overview.

[pcosmar]

I followed this from the begining, and said that it semed wrong. Threads were closed for Cop bashing. I was flamed, as were others.
I am not against the police, I'm against the policy.
This whole thing had a stink on it from the begining, I could smell it form the other end of the country. Maybe this will start people thinking,questioning and changeing the policy that leads to these tragedies. Maybe some good can come of this poor womans death.
I hope so.

 

[F4GIB]

Threads were closed for Cop bashing. I was flamed, as were others.

Sometimes, more often than police-oriented moderators want to believe, the POLICE deserve to be bashed. And bashed hard. This is one of those incidents.

"We don't lie, we don't enjoy abusing our power, we don't shoot for the joy of it, and we don't go with the boys that do. Ya, Ya, Ya."' Oh, sure.

The latest news:

The confidential informant on whose word Atlanta police raided the house of an 88-year-old woman is now saying he never purchased drugs from her house and was told by police to lie and say he did.

Are the mods going to allow discussion of this? It will inevitably make the POLICE look bad, very bad. Perhaps they should look bad.

 

[Skywarp]

They should.

But it's hard to blame the guys who went in. They did as was told.


The judge should be removed and puton trial for at least manslaughter for approving a warrant based on as it turns out, shoddy police work, and the commanding officer should go up for attempted murder, manslaughter and breaking and entry.


heads need to roll more than administrative leave and resignation. Set an example. Lets see some real repercussions for a dead woman and abuse of the legal system.

 

[molonlabe]

I am beginning to think the small amount of pot was planted, but the larger issue here is to write your congressman to have this paramilitary bull stopped. It may prevent the day that they crash into our homes looking for your semi auto whatever. I have been jumped on, insulted and flamed by my concern about the militarization of the police by the swat apologist, to the point that I left TFL. It’s interesting that these threads have been kept open over there. Maybe the rank an file are fed up with this insanity. I can only hope.

 

[ilbob]

One can only hope that a few dozen of those responsible for this atrocity end up behind bars. But if history means anything, it is likely no one actually responsible will get any more than a slap on the wrist.

 

[junyo]

As a separate issue, and because I see it being brought up again and again, I respectfully disagree with the widely held view that these intrusions are attributable to the War On Drugs. Forgive me for the cross-post.

SWAT teams didn't magically come into existence when the government decided to crack down on drugs. They had existed long before then, starting in CA as paramilitary units as a response to incidences of domestic terrorism. A few big cities needed them on rare occasions, but they were on TV, and cool, and everybody wanted them. They were a status symbol. The problem is, they were an expensive status symbol, with nothing to do most places. Then the War on Drugs came along and justified their continued existence and expansion, and proliferation. But do you honestly think that had drugs been legalized/decriminalized that this wouldn't have occurred? There would have been a War on Something Else, there's always something else.

The problem is once the government creates a program that program will never shrink. It'll grow and morph and find new missions, reasons to expand, and authorities to assume. They're not just using SWAT teams for drugs; they're becoming the default tool of law enforcement. Got a person threatening suicide? Call the SWAT team. Guy holed up in his house? Call the SWAT team. Do you think that if drugs were made legal tomorrow they'd put these guys in uniforms and send them out on patrol? Please. They'd just rename "writing a speeding ticket" to "performing a high risk traffic stop" and run you off the road with an armored Suburban as 5 SMG wielding officers jumped off the running boards and stuck the muzzles through the window and the sixth busted out the passenger window and tossed a flashbang into your wife's lap. SWAT teams would replace crossing guards, "protecting our most valuable assets" with black clad fire teams at intersections ready to deploy spike strips at a moments notice from their sniper/spotter overwatch at the first sign of any inbound Huffy's. Do you think a politician would be dumb enough to go on record saying that the town should maybe get rid of the local SWAT team and recover the not insignificant annual cost? I can see his opponents ad now... "Joe Smith hates cops and wants your kids to die. That's why he wants to cut desperately needed police resources. And that why his opponent is endorsed by the local police union."

You want to find the source of a problem, to paraphrase a LE term "follow the incentives". These tactics are used, and will continue because there's zero downside and a massive upside to them. When it works, you're the star of the department, get instantaneous feedback on success or failure without the tedium of day to day traditional policework, and can almost guarantee lucrative post SWAT employment consulting or training because of the creed the job gives you. If you're wrong, in all but the most grievious cases you're insulated from prosecution, liability, heck even professional scorn.

 

[pcosmar]

junyo
Growing up in the late 60s andearly 70s, I had never heard of SWAT. that is a later development. The war on drugs was well on it's way.
At 16 walking to get a pizza with a friend, a Detective jumped out and put a gun to my head. and cocked it. He and another un-uniformed officer started asking us where the drugs were.
A superior came along, and told them that we had nothing to do with it and He had seen us comeing down the street. He sent them off down the street.
Later we heard that it was a Botched Drug Raid. This was before SWAT, but the same mentality.
I still remember the sound of a revolver being cocked behind my ear.

 

[Master Blaster]

Mr. Spreadfirearms,

you dont have a dog in this fight do ya????

Well Lookie here:

WWW.spreadfirearms.com

We can obtain lower-cost "Law Enforcement Only" machine guns for law enforcement agency use, FET Exempt. We are always interested in trading in your police deparment's old weapons for new weapons. Feel free to contact us and let us show you how we can outfit your law enforcement agency with brand new equipment by trading out your old equipment, using little or no money at all. We can do this with any law enforcement agency in the United States. Law Enforcement Agency references provided upon request.

Now if the SWAT teams went away........
I rest my case.

 

[junyo]

Growing up in the late 60s andearly 70s, I had never heard of SWAT.

The development of SWAT is generally credited to the Los Angeles Police Department, in particular to then-inspector Daryl Gates, in 1967...A report issued by the Los Angeles Police Department, following the so-called SLA Shoot-out in 1974, offers one of the few firsthand accounts by the department regarding SWAT history, operations, and organization... On page 100 of the report, the Department cites four trends which prompted the development of SWAT. This includes riots which in the 1960s forced police departments into tactical situations for which they were ill-prepared, the emergence of snipers as a challenge to civil order, the appearance of the political assassin, and the threat of urban guerrilla warfare by militant groups.


Nothing to do with the War on Drugs, mainly because while already illegal, there was no War on Drugs. It was about domestic terrorism at the time.


The term itself [War On Drugs], however, was coined in 1971 by Richard Nixon to describe a new set of initiatives designed to enhance drug prohibition...Nixon's modern-day War on Drugs began in 1969. He characterized the abuse of illicit substances as "America's public enemy number one." In an attempt to make good on his campaign promise to be tough on crime, the Nixon administration created and pushed through the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) of 1970. This legislation is the foundation on which the modern drug war exists. Responsibility for enforcement of this new law was given to the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, and then in 1973 to the newly formed Drug Enforcement Administration.

A plain clothes detective putting a pistol (how quaint!) to your head is isn't what we're talking about. That is what it is. But what we're talking about is uniformed squads of light infantry on America's streets. That detective is unlikely to open up on you with a SMG, run over your cat with his APC, or burn your house down with a poorly thrown grenade.

 

[molonlabe]

Master Blaster
To use a LE term "follow the incentive"

I was wondering in light of all that has been revealed excuses are still being made.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

Masterblaster wrote:

Mr. Spreadfirearms,

you dont have a dog in this fight do ya????

Not really, I never did. but it really doesn't matter what i think because most of you guys already have your opinion formed as i have already formed mine.

there doesn't need to be SWAT teams, there doesn't need to be a war on drugs, there is no need for no-knock warrants, etc. that is beat to death. many people on here have a strong anti-LE sentiment. me justifying it will do nothing. and by the way, i am not glued to my internet 24/7. i have to sleep and attend to other things in my life. i am not glued to THR.

We can obtain lower-cost "Law Enforcement Only" machine guns for law enforcement agency use, FET Exempt. We are always interested in trading in your police deparment's old weapons for new weapons. Feel free to contact us and let us show you how we can outfit your law enforcement agency with brand new equipment by trading out your old equipment, using little or no money at all. We can do this with any law enforcement agency in the United States. Law Enforcement Agency references provided upon request.

if SWAT teams went away, guess what, alot of departments still have a need for weapons. in fact, many of them had automatic weapons before they had SWAT teams. this is evidenced by the fact that many had automatic weapons that are civilian "transferable," meaning, they were made domestically and registered prior to May 1986. however, they haven't had a SWAT team until the mid 90's. that means they still have a need for firearms, regardless of if they have a SWAT team or not.

as i have specified before, i make more money on non-LE sales than i do LE sales. that is a simple fact. go ask every FFL out there and they'll tell you the same. LE sales are competitive and almost always go to the lowest bidder. they have their own armorers to service the weapons so you'll probably never get any "service after the sale" income. and, many manufactuers now have their own direct sales agents that compete with you, so really, LE sales aren't a big chunk of my income.

now, if you are claiming that i am pro-LE, guess what, you're right. there's nothing to hide there. if you are saying that because i am pro-LE i am blind to all of the facts, then that is where you're wrong. i've said that if the search warrant affidavit was written with illegal intent, meaning, if they fabricated the evidence, then of course the agent who wrote the affidavit (who knowingly fabricated the evidence) should be held responsible. the other cops who simply served the warrant, who had no idea that the affidavit had fabricated evidence, and then got shot at, are not to blame in the Atlanta PD incident.

the problem is, most of the people screaming about how the cops "murdered" an old lady in the Atlanta incident are making opinions without all of the facts. as the facts come in, yes, i change my opinion as i get them.

the problem is, the anti-LE people on this thread are basing their opinion largely on the fact that the old lady was defending herself from a perceived home invasion robbery and that she didn't know it was the police.

news stories have shown the officers wore "POLICE" raid jackets with "POLICE" written on the front and the back, announced themselves, and had a marked police car in the front driveway. that evidence is currently undisputed.

further, there is no evidence to support what the old lady thought was going on. i have asked for evidence of this time and time again and nobody here has been able to give any direct proof.

the problem is, you guys are making serious allegations without proof. you are further attempting to make this a personal beef rather than sticking to the issue. your issue is not with me. i didn't go with Atlanta PD to serve the warrant. i didn't go shoot at the lady. yet you seem to have think that because i happen to sell guns to law enforcement then i somehow feel compelled to blindly support LE. that simply isn't the case. i am pro law enforcement, yes. that doesn't mean i blindly support everything they do. but i do think that the officers who didn't know any of this evidence may have been fabricated are to blame.

discussing the issues is one thing, making personal attacks is quite another. again, this is another example of making an allegation without proof. there is no proof that my personal opinion of this Atlanta PD incident was swayed by the fact that happen to sell guns to cops and non-cops alike. if you would like perhaps you can come to Austin and take a look at my business records and see how many sales of mine have been from law enforcement? just tell me when you'll come by and ill have my records ready for your inspection.

go talk to anyone who's met me in Austin and you'll probably hear im a stand up guy.

DISCLAIMER: I have also never done a police sale to anyone in law enforcement at Atlanta PD.

 

[dave_pro2a]

Spreadfire Arms "the other cops who simply served the warrant, who had no idea that the affidavit had fabricated evidence, and then got shot at, are not to blame"

The blame ought to ALWAYS be placed on the finger that pulls the trigger. It should be shared with the judge who signed the paper, and the detectives that gathered the intial evidence.

It didn't work at Nuremberg, and it shouldn't work here. Each 'agent' (person) has the duty to act justly and morally... doesn't matter if they are a cop or a normal citizen.

If Swat Cops were held personally liable (in civil and criminal court) then I strongly suspect that warrent mistakes and civilian deaths would drastically drop.

BTW: many news articles spoke in depth about the old ladies state of mind. People were cited as saying she expressed concern about the rape that occured in her neighborhood, and the rash of home invasion robberies.

You keep wanting HER first hand account of the incident, seeming to say that we don't have a right to talk about her potential thoughts and motives because she didn't voice them... Unfortunatly no one can interview her, because she was KILLED. All one can do is listen to those who knew her, and who can give accounts of her last few weeks. If she hadn't been KILLED, then yes, we could hear her side of the story first hand. KILL the victim, err, I mean suspect, and shockingly enough the only LIVE testimony you'll get is that of the establishment.

Do you get the picture yet?

Also, she's around 90 years old, if you've ever had to do elder care for YOUR grandmother, then you'll know that sometimes they don't see too well, and don't hear too well. And likely she fired THROUGH the door at 'rampaging' men in blask who were busting into her previously safe and tranquil domicile. I can understand the context she had to deal with, and she has FAR more of my empathy then the police (especially since they are alive and she's dead).

http://www.barrettrifles.com/news/ca_outcome.htm There's a man who's serious about firearm rights. If EVERY manufacturer and dealer adopted the same stance, then the RKBA would be more than assured. Yes, follow the financial incentive. It's your right to sell to the LEO community, but try to take a lesson from Barrett.

 

[jcoiii]

Spreadfire Arms: "it was a search warrant, not a home invasion warrant. you're using inflammatory language to describe a lawful search warrant signed by a judge."

No, I'm not. I am using accurate words to describe the event.

If the LEO community can create propaganda words and phrases that are media friendly (i.e. "no-knock warrent," and "suicide by cop"), then we free citizens can create terms and use words that are based in reality to describe what really happens.

A no-knock warrent is in essence a home invasion warrent. Ripping off doors with violent force, after dark, without announcing that you're a government employee can reasonably be described as a home invasion. Responding with force is not only legitimate, but also prudent.

No-knock warrents are such an effective home invasion tactic that criminals have adopted the strategy and follow it to a T.

(bolding mine)

1. "accurate words" are "search warrant." That is the legal term.

2. Police did not make up the terms "no-knock" or "suicide by cop." The media did. Both are misnomers. "No-knock" refers to a warrant where the officers go into the place without knocking on the door, announcing that they are police, or any other form of announcing police presence. "Suicide by cop" is an oxy moron. The term is "victim precipitated homicide" if you care.

3. The police DID ANNOUNCE THAT THEY WERE POLICE BEFORE ENTERING. They just did not physically knock on the door. By announcing their presence, they were not, in fact, executing a "no-knock" warrant."

 

[Art Eatman]

enuf.