Test I will Never Do Again

[BSA1]

I demand 100% reliability from all of my self-defense and hunting firearms. My criteria for a firearm that I use for self-defense must fire 500 rounds without any malfunctions caused by the gun. Any malfunction that I cannot identify the cause as either being ammo or magazine results in me starting the testing all over.

I have a Ruger P-89 that started having failure to fires. I determined the cause to be a weak mainspring so as a precaution I replaced all of the springs. I conducted my 500 round test with a twist. This time I decided to shoot 500 rounds without cleaning the gun. My ammo was 115 gr. cast lead bullets powered by W-231 and Winchester primer.

The test procedure was simple. I just loaded all of the magazines up at home, went to the range and shot all of ammo. I then put the gun back in it’s box and returned it back to the shelf to be forgotten about until next time I remembered it.

Between 4/28/14 and 6/10/16 I shot 610 rounds without any malfunctions of any kind. I never cleaned, disassembled or did any maintenance to the gun. Around the 540 round mark the slide became slow to close when I reloaded a full magazine. However with the last four magazines the slide closed forcefully.

The final result was I had a very dirty, dry gun that was hard to clean. The barrel was heavily leaded and the interior was hard caked with fouling. There was no soft lube or oil left. My original idea was to see if I could shoot 2,000 rounds of cast bullets through it without cleaning but I lost interest in the test. I have other guns and projects on the table and since the gun passed 500 rounds with flying colors I call it good.

My conclusion about the test is;

This gun is very reliable.

As I do not let my self-defense guns get this dirty and neglected the test was basically so I can say I did it.

I will never do another test like this again. It is too much of a pain plus too much use of time, solvent, patches, scraping the hard cake fouling and lead out of the gun.

 

[shootniron]

Chore Boy copper scrubbers are your friend for lead fouling...better than a Lewis Lead Remover.

Oh yeah, powder coating is, too. If you had been shooting powder coated bullets, there would have been no lead to scrape out.

 

[Zebraranger]

Yep, the Ruger P series are very stout and reliable. Even thou I don't shoot it anymore as much as some of my other guns, my P90 has always worked flawlessly.

 

[BSA1]

Chore Boy copper scrubbers are your friend for lead fouling...better than a Lewis Lead Remover.

Oh yeah, powder coating is, too. If you had been shooting powder coated bullets, there would have been no lead to scrape out.

The whole point of the exercise was to pack the gun full of crud, lead and lack of lube and oil until it quit working hence lead bullets. I originally intended to shoot more rounds through it to try to get it to quit working but I have moved on to other guns and projects.

To be honest based on the results I consider the test to be rather pointless but it makes for a good conversation.

Real world use is I never left my semi-autos get this dirty and I use jacketed bullets for self-defense.

Interestingly enough my single-action revolvers I use for CAS are much more tolerant of this kind of testing. They have a .008" barrel / cylinder gap and easily go 600 rounds without cleaning. Maintenance is only a occasional drop of oil on the cylinder base pin.

The gun is clean now (at least clean enough for me); Tetra gun grease on the rails and small drops of Mobil One oil on the pivot points. For grins and giggles this coming winter I might take it out of the box in it's present condition, take it outside and leave it the sub-zero weather for a few days along with a loaded magazine. I might mist the gun with a light coat of water just to help freeze it up. Then just pick the gun up and shoot it. It will probably be more of a test of the ammunition than the gun itself.

 

[ATLDave]

Wow. A load that comprehensively fouls a pistol in 500 rounds is not a load I'm interested in!

 

[TOTC]

Between 4/28/14 and 6/10/16 I shot 610 rounds without any malfunctions of any kind. I never cleaned, disassembled or did any maintenance to the gun. Around the 540 round mark the slide became slow to close when I reloaded a full magazine. However with the last four magazines the slide closed forcefully.
[/I
Why the two plus years to fire 610 rounds?

 

[Shaq]

I have similar reliability requirements for a defensive gun with one difference: I handload quality ammo, but I don't consider it a gun-related malfunction unless it's factory ammo. After handloading for 40 years, I've learned that there are many causes for malfunctions with handloaded ammo & pinpointing the exact cause may be difficult or impossible. I'd consider a semi-auto pistol reliable if it fires a combination of factory & handloaded ammo - around 300-500 rounds without any malfunctions. I have an HKUSP 45 that is 100% reliable with factory ammo (no malfunctions in 1,600 rounds) but it doesn't like certain bullet styles that are only avavilable as bullets for handloading. I've also noted that some handloaded rounds won't completely drop into the chamber which may be a bit tighter than other pistols I have.

I also don't load cast lead for autos; it gunks up the action in places that are difficult to clean. I prefer jacketed or plated for autos.

 

[BSA1]

Why the two plus years to fire 610 rounds?

Recovery from a couple of major surgeries, too many honey-do jobs, box stuck in the back of the shelf so it was easy to forget about, other guns and too little time to shoot them.

At Christmas I brought a 6 pouch nylon magazine holder for a friend as a gift to him. I liked it so well I started buying them myself to organize my magazines. One of the nicest features of them it them come in different colors which makes it very easy to sort them by manufacturer. I came across the magazines for the forgotten about Ruger and decided
to conclude the test.

I also don't load cast lead for autos; it gunks up the action in places that are difficult to clean. I prefer jacketed or plated for autos.

I shoot 98% cast lead bullets in all of my handguns. I don't have much use for jacketed bullets. I just don't neglect them the way I did the Ruger. They are much easier to clean while the fouling is still soft.

 

[Warp]

My current EDC pistol has seen almost 600 rounds in the last two days. I will probably shoot another couple or few hundred through it tomorrow. I haven't cleaned or lubed or anything. I expect no issues whatsoever. Jacketed bullets, factory ammo, not-a-Ruger, though. And short period of time, I personally wouldn't have leave a gun to sit for that long after hundreds of rounds through it without at least a quick field strip wipe and some new lube.

 

[loose noose]

I've shot upwards of 600 rounds thru my Springfield .40 XD up at Front Sight, in Pahrump, Nevada without so much as a misfeed, failure to fire, or eject. I shot mostly Federal, and PMC ammo thru it. Naturally we had to induce a jam, as well as two other malfunctions, but quite frankly when shooting, it was pure pleasure. This was over a four day shoot, without any cleaning, other than a wipe down with a silicon cloth during the evening. It is definitely a reliable weapon.

 

[Warp]

To update my previous post I took my EDC pistol to 850 rounds with no cleaning or lube of any kind. Shooting it there was zero indication of this and it worked just as well as if it was just carefully cleaned and lubed a minute prior. I'm sure it could have gone longer, too, but I cleaned it last night.

But that was a Glock so 850 rounds no lube no cleaning and still working perfectly is, well, still boring.

 

[Tallball]

My Buck Mark is mildly annoying to field strip, so I just don't. I just clean it off as well as I can without disassembly (which isn't much) and put it away. It is just a range toy and plinker, so it really doesn't matter. I am estimating 2,000 rounds plus now with no problems. When it starts malfunctioning I will field strip it again. Until then I will just keep on doing what I'm doing.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Well I guess everybody has their own standards.
My carry guns are always clean and lubed, so I don't really get the point of the test.
I only shoot plated rounds in my two carry guns. When I do shoot them, which isn't often. I have a range gun that mimics the EDC guns. That's what I drill with.
BTW, hope ur doing well.
SG

 

[mgmorden]

I'm guessing it's the lead but 610 rounds is nothing. Heck I don't even CONSIDER cleaning a gun until I've hit ~500 rounds and many of mine go 1,000+ between cleanings. I haven't shot any regular lead loads in a while but I quite commonly shoot molycoated pistol bullets (Bayou, Blue Bullets, etc).

 

[Shaq]

I've shot upwards of 600 rounds thru my Springfield .40 XD up at Front Sight, in Pahrump, Nevada without so much as a misfeed, failure to fire, or eject. I shot mostly Federal, and PMC ammo thru it. Naturally we had to induce a jam, as well as two other malfunctions, but quite frankly when shooting, it was pure pleasure. This was over a four day shoot, without any cleaning, other than a wipe down with a silicon cloth during the evening. It is definitely a reliable weapon.

An XD, Glock or other similar pistol with looser tolerances will fire many rounds without cleaning. The firing residue has places to escape. But a tightly-fitted custom 1911 like a Wilson won't. Even a run-of-the-mill 1911 has lots of metal-to-metal friction (compared to a modern polymer-framed pistol & will malfunction when it gets too dirty.

 

[splattergun]

I have never run more than about 150 rounds through mine without a cleaning, but should I ever choose to go several hundred rounds through my P89 without cleaning, I am pleased to know that it is capable of doing so. Love my RUger PXX

 

[Overkill870]

As others have said 610 rounds is not that much. I moved away from lead bullets because I hate scrubbing lead out of my bores. I use plated or jacketed for a little more and it's worth it.

 

[rugerdude29]

I have run upwards of 500 rounds through my DW 1911 since it was last cleaned with no issues at all. Admittedly, the ammo used was probably about 50-50 lead and jacketed, but all handloaded. I sure wouldn't have expected the kind of buildup that you describe in only 600 rounds.

 

[BSA1]

Well I guess everybody has their own standards.
My carry guns are always clean and lubed, so I don't really get the point of the test.

Mainly confidence in the reliability of the gun. If it well continue to function after this abuse then it gives me a lot of confidence in it when it is clean and properly oiled / lubricated.

I only shoot plated rounds in my two carry guns. When I do shoot them, which isn't often. I have a range gun that mimics the EDC guns. That's what I drill with.

Your comment is confusing. Are you saying you don't shoot your carry guns much or just don't shoot plated bullets?

Why don't you shoot your self-defense guns instead of a range gun? If I am going to have problems with my edc I want it to happen on the range.
SG

 

[JTQ]

Why don't you shoot your self-defense guns instead of a range gun? If I am going to have problems with my edc I want it to happen on the range.

Carry Gun, Training Gun http://pistol-training.com/archives/9093

Some comment that you'd have 3 identical guns. All three get reliability tested and then put into service as: 1) A training gun that gets shot a lot. Such as every range session. 2) A carry gun that gets shot every now and then to cycle and refresh carry ammo. 3) A back up gun that is seldom shot, but ready to step in to replace one of the other two if they go down.

 

[BSA1]

I also believe in "Three is Two, Two is One and One is None." However due to my budget I am focusing on "Two is One" with emphasis on customizing and tuning my guns for peak performance.

 

[rudeguy]

What exactly does "tuning and customizing" mean? Does that mean that you are replacing OEM parts with aftermarket? If so, that would explain why you gun functioned so poorly.

Because of this thread, I took my Glock 19 Gen 4 to the range. I needed to test some range ammo anyway, so I packed up my 19 and 650 rounds of Freedom Ammo 115 gr FMJ. I started out with my normal 5 round volleys, then moved up to 10, then 15. I put all 650 rounds through the gun in about an hour. No misfires, no FTF, the only issues were 4 semi BTF rounds. I figure the 4 BTF were more than likely my fault since my grip probably wasn't as tight after 300 rounds.

If your Ruger couldn't manage 500 rounds between cleanings without FTF, then you have an issue. However, you statement that you customize your gun leads me to believe that its much more likely that you installed inferior aftermarket parts and broke your gun. There is zero reason that a quality handgun shouldn't fire 1,000+ rounds without cleaning or issues. Also, your grandiose attitude while stating funds are limited brings me to believe that the issue is most likely related to the work you did and not the gun itself.

I'll run 1,000 rounds through any of my guns in one sitting without thinking twice. If ammo were free, I'd do that every time I went to the range. I also don't customize or tune my guns other than night sights and the occasional $.25 trigger job. I wonder if there is a connection between my guns working so much better than yours and the fact that you "tune and customize" your guns.

PS: Good luck getting 100% reliability out of any machine. I think that one line is probably the most outrageous out of all the silly lines in your thread. There is no such thing as a 100% reliable gun or any kind of machine. They do not exist.

 

[Chuck R.]

An XD, Glock or other similar pistol with looser tolerances will fire many rounds without cleaning. The firing residue has places to escape. But a tightly-fitted custom 1911 like a Wilson won't. Even a run-of-the-mill 1911 has lots of metal-to-metal friction (compared to a modern polymer-framed pistol & will malfunction when it gets too dirty.

I don't know about that. My Les Baer Concept V routinely goes for 1-1500 rds of semi-nasty cast bullet reloads between cleanings. I have my own range out back, and it's the norm for me to shoot a couple times a week, so some of my range guns go a while between cleanings. Not because I'm doing any "torture test", but because I enjoy shooting more than cleaning.

For my carry and HD guns I went so far as to by range copies, just to avoid cleaning them right after practicing.

I've been in classes with a 500+ round count a day, and I honestly can't remember too many guns choking due to being dirty. IMHO it's tough to think of any reasonable SD scenario where a pistol would have to go through more than a couple magazines anyway.

Chuck

 

[BSA1]

Rudeguy,

HUH???

What in the Wide World of Sports are you talking about?

Other than replacing the weak springs with Wolff extra power ones my Ruger P-89 is in stock condition. After 25 years of use Ruger springs wear out. I have never read of Wolff Springs being "inferior parts."

1989+ 25 = 2014. If you will reread my first post I replaced the springs in 2014.

As for your rant about me customizing my Ruger, using inferior parts and breaking my gun I never said anything about customizing the Ruger or using different parts (other than the spring replacement) or having problems with customized guns.

 

[BSA1]

Thanks guy for the replies. Your comments go to show how well made and reliable semi-automatic pistols are today. As commented semi-autos continuing to function for over 610 rounds of dirty lead bullets is the norm nowadays. With jacketed bullets it is not unreasonable to expect a much higher trouble free round count.

For grins and giggles I am thinking about putting a box of my carry ammo outside this winter for a few weeks and then test firing it from my equally cold gun. 30 years ago I kept a revolver in the trunk of my car all winter and come Spring three of the rounds would not fire. I am curious how much ammunition has being improved in 30 years.