Thanks for buying, storing and selling ammo, AR-15's, etc

[MaterDei]

So you're saying that the people who have sold all of their inventory for a profit are dumb and the folks with inventory still sitting on their shelves are the good business men?

You are also saying that the people who have happy and loyal customers who will buy from them over and over without fear of being fleeced are dumb?

OK, you have the right to say so but that doesn't make it true. Likewise, the gougers have a right to gouge, that doesn't mean it's smart.

Successful businesses provide a service, not just a product. They serve their customers and they serve their communities. They develop a local customer base who will speak well of them to others and frequent them in good times and bad.

I'm not saying that the CTDs and Alamo Ammos of the world are doing anything immoral or unethical. What they are doing is dumb.

 

[jrdolall]

I spent 30 years in the commodity business and we lived off of supply and demand. Beef, vegetables, corn, soybeans are supply and demand.

If there is bad weather in California that freezes the lettuce crop what should the guy in Florida who is growing lettuce do? He has normal supply and good quality so he should keep his prices at a comfortable margin and have every customer in the eastern half of the country happy? HELL NO! You raise your price to whatever the market is and you put that money in the bank because next year the market will be crappy and all those customers you made happy will leave you for a dime and go back to the supplier that couldn't cover them in tight times. 1 out of 50 of the customers that you pick up will appreciate it enough to stay with you when their old supplier has a better price next year.
This is how the commodity business works every year in every business I have been associated with. Guns and ammo have become a "commodity" for right now because of the panic. Somewhere in the supply chain there are companies making a killing. I have talked to some firearm manufacturers that said their prices have not changed in two years. The LGS says his prices are up because he is paying more. I don't know any distributors but one of these segments is making a bunch of money right now.
Everyone dogging out certain online retailers for having high prices and praising the other guys for not raising prices is looking through rose colored glasses. For every gun person that hates CTD for being high priced there will be two new gun owners that appreciate CTD for actually having ammo.
I can see some of this as funny because I have been a shooter for many years and I have plenty of guns and ammo to lst me a while. I have found plenty of deals in the pst 4 months but I have not been able to walk in Academy and buy all I want at one time. I feel bad for people who can't find what they want for range ammo and I feel bad for people that don't know enough to understand that $.20 a round for .22 is outrageous.

As for the people buying and selling ammo right now I am perfectly okay with that. I bet everyone on here has bought something with the intent to make a profit at some point. A year ago bought a 1981 Datsun for $3900 and sold it one week later for $6500 after washing and waxing it. When the guy offered to pay $6000 I haggled and got the $6500 so should I have told him "No, I will sell it to you at $4500 because that's a fair profit"? The guy had it painted and is still driving it around town

 

[HOOfan_1]

So you're saying that the people who have sold all of their inventory for a profit are dumb and the folks with inventory still sitting on their shelves are the good business men?

It was kind of contradictory afterall....

"thank you to everyone who went out and bought everything you could"

"also thank you to all the shops which jacked up their prices enough, so that many people wouldn't go out and buy everything they could"

 

[Teachu2]

So you're saying that the people who have sold all of their inventory for a profit are dumb and the folks with inventory still sitting on their shelves are the good business men?

You are also saying that the people who have happy and loyal customers who will buy from them over and over without fear of being fleeced are dumb?

OK, you have the right to say so but that doesn't make it true. Likewise, the gougers have a right to gouge, that doesn't mean it's smart.

Successful businesses provide a service, not just a product. They serve their customers and they serve their communities. They develop a local customer base who will speak well of them to others and frequent them in good times and bad.

I'm not saying that the CTDs and Alamo Ammos of the world are doing anything immoral or unethical. What they are doing is dumb.

I'm saying most small businesses cannot survive for extended periods of time without selling product, and can't sell what they don't have. Selling all your inventory at a small profit is great IF you have an endless supply. In times of scarcity with long delays of very limited resupply, it's suicidal.

Suppose you own a LGS, and you have 100 pistols and 10000 boxes of ammo in stock. A panic starts, and you sell 20 pistols and 1000 boxes of ammo the first day of it. You start calling suppliers to increase your inventory, and every one says "maybe next year". Your rent is $2k per month, you have 6 employees, and your life savings is invested in inventory. Leave your prices alone, and your shelves will be bare in 9 days. Then what?

 

[joeschmoe]

The irony of people assigning good and evil moral attributes to retail prices, but also complain the anti's arguments are all emotional. Prices are not good/evil. If you don't like, don't buy it. There is no moral superiority in having empty shelves. Emotional arguments prove you lack factual arguments.

You should have bought what you needed before the panic or understand that this is temporary. When prices come back down and availability returns then you can take this lesson and stock up. Another added benefit of the temporary price spike/shortage is illustrating for those who called others "hoarders" instead of being prepared themselves. Stock up when the getting is good. Plan for shortages, don't just cry about it and blame others.

 

[silicosys4]

CTD made the decision to change their targeted demographic to panic buyers. There won't be panic buying forever, then what? Hope that enough new shooters are coming in that won't remember the winter of 2013? No, they will be just another supplier in a big market full of inventory, but they will have that much worse a reputation. CTD will be remembered by many and avoided. Making SLIGHTLY more money in the short term at the expense of losing your loyal customer base and ruining your reputation to chase a temporary market demographic is Not a solid, long term, sustainable policy.

 

[JohnBT]

"CTD made the decision to change their targeted demographic to panic buyers. There won't be panic buying forever, then what?"

Then they go back to selling a box for a dime less than the competition and everybody buys it.

 

[Warp]

You are still out of business when you raise the prices so high nobody will buy anything. And will never come back.

Which retailer are you claiming will go out of business due to their prices being too high?

What would you like to wager on this happening?

 

[Sam1911]

Good grief. Boys, play nice with each other or this becomes just another closed "gouging" thread. Surely we have enough of those?

 

[Torian]

I do think investors have a more favorable long-term view on growth in the firearms industry after the last few months.

They saw how much money gun owners were willing to pour into the guns and ammo when their rights were threatened.

Money talks.

 

[lionking]

Well on a side note I just went to gunbroker and put in Colt 6920 and PTR91 and there are pages of them with hardly anyone bidding and the only bids are to pre-panic prices. Looks like the scare inflated prices might be over on firearms but unfortunately ammo is slower to drop. Just like you can get a deal on a auto but there isn't any dealing for fuel. Unlike fuel though where fuel is a need, ammo isn't and if people just stopped buying for a while prices would drop.

 

[Agsalaska]

Good grief. Boys, play nice with each other or this becomes just another closed "gouging" thread. Surely we have enough of those?

Sorry Sam. I can't help myself. It is so frustrating to me that so many people who probably consider themselves conservative have so much trouble with this. I will let it go.


It was still an excellent OP. The OP nailed it.

 

[Warp]

Well on a side note I just went to gunbroker and put in Colt 6920 and PTR91 and there are pages of them with hardly anyone bidding and the only bids are to pre-panic prices. Looks like the scare inflated prices might be over on firearms but unfortunately ammo is slower to drop. Just like you can get a deal on a auto but there isn't any dealing for fuel. Unlike fuel though where fuel is a need, ammo isn't and if people just stopped buying for a while prices would drop.

Search completed listings to get the best idea of what items are actually selling for.

 

[justice06rr]

You said they can't get product. How do empty shelves lead to repeat customers? You repeatedly can't get ammo there?

Walmart has empty shelves, and you can bet people will still buy there. Same with Dick's. They do get ammo but it gets bought within the first couple of hours.

I'm sure that Walmart is a special case because they sell other things besides ammo, but people know that they have not jacked up prices so they will shop there again when supply comes back later on.

 

[blue32]

The OP can claim whatever he wants about what is good for the industry. But as a shooter and reloader without an income to support these current market prices, this is going to push me out of the shooting fraternity sooner or later.

I used to spend a couple hundred every month on reloading supplies. I've spent maybe $150 over the past three months. Its not that I dislike capitalism but there are definitely tradeoffs. Sure, the market is pushing wealthy shooters into the marketplace but its also pushing modest income shooters like myself out.

Here's the impact for me and thousands of established shooters:
1. shooting less
2. spending less on ammo
3. spending less on cleaning supplies, associated firearm costs
4. definitely not buying anymore guns
5. if this continues to July, I will not be re-upping my range membership - sorry LGS but you lose.

I would like to know if the high price buys net more than the stable market purchasers over the same time period. What remains to be seen is if the current high dollar purchasers will continue to be loyal at these prices. If they do, the more power to those well off. If they do not, then, the shooting market as a whole might have some butt kissing to do to get some of the regular shooters back to the marketplace when prices stabilize.

 

[foxs]

Ok i look at everything as a business owner stand point. If i were to raise my prices so high that my shelves are stocked full and nobody is buying anything then its not good. i see nobody really understands the business rule of 80/20. <---- Business rely on this rule.
Done with this subject.......

 

[Sam1911]

Ok i look at everything as a business owner stand point. If i were to raise my prices so high that my shelves are stocked full and nobody is buying anything then its not good. i see nobody really understands the business rule of 80/20. <---- Business rely on this rule.
Done with this subject.......

Conversely, if you set your prices so low that your shelves are quickly EMPTY, that's very bad as well.

The smartest plan is to hit the price point that sees ALMOST, but not quite, every unit sold each supply cycle. That would tell you you're hitting your local market's perfect balance. You're making the most you can on each sale, which is the point of a business. You're moving 99% of the inventory you get in which means you have optimal cash flow. And yet you still have something on the shelf for folks to see, which keeps them coming back even in the lean times.

Even if your prices aren't rock bottom, having a unit or two of whatever it is available (at a price) for whomever is really in need is better than being the low-ball guy who's shelves are bare 20 minutes after opening each day.

 

[hardheart]

The problem with every one of these praise threads is that it is all about the business side. Why exactly should I care what businesses stay open in a competitive market? Shut all of them down except for those that meet my needs. Close the brick and mortar if online is cheaper. Drive mom & pop into a home if the big box is cheaper. Offer no quarter, none given or asked. As a consumer, all I care about is maximizing the product or service I receive for my money. I see zero merit in praising the increase in prices, there isn't a single consumer that should ever want that. Capitalism certainly does not work on the idea that consumers should buy at any price and that tastes and preferences, substitute goods, discretionary income, and a myriad host of things just gets ignored. There's a reason the supply and demand curves have inverse slopes, but economic gurus paying a buck a round due to lack of planning, preparation, or foresight would like to brush that under the rug.

They are the ones talking about these items as if they were veblen or giffen goods, with nothing backing that up. Buy low, sell high goes for everyone, including those who don't sell. It is always buy low. Since not every retailer has raised prices, then the 'low' of buy low is still the same. We have some retailers capitalizing on the elasticity demonstrated by some segment of the buyers, but that doesn't mean that chanting the order to 'pay higher prices relative to your income' is any more freedom-loving than saying 'pay only what you are willing to based on your ways and means'.

Anyone who actually thinks the inflated prices are supporting the industry long term might be able to provide some reasons. If manufacturers aren't raising prices, which they apparently aren't since major retailers have not either, then where is the increased revenue for capital investment that is supposed to be growing the industry? Where is the sustained increased demand once the political risk reduces? Where is the demand to meet the increase in production if/when more lines are introduced?

This is just speaking out of both sides of one's mouth. Early on the threads said prices went up because the industry recognizes this as a temporary boost and will not make major infrastructure investments based on these short returns, so demand has temporarily outstripped supply... but now these increased prices happening at levels beyond the manufacturers somehow provides impetus for long term investment from what they perceive as a short term market condition. There will be more of everything at higher prices because this is actually sustainable in the long term, based on three months of sales?

 

[Warp]

Conversely, if you set your prices so low that your shelves are quickly EMPTY, that's very bad as well.

The smartest plan is to hit the price point that sees ALMOST, but not quite, every unit sold each supply cycle. That would tell you you're hitting your local market's perfect balance. You're making the most you can on each sale, which is the point of a business. You're moving 99% of the inventory you get in which means you have optimal cash flow. And yet you still have something on the shelf for folks to see, which keeps them coming back even in the lean times.

Even if your prices aren't rock bottom, having a unit or two of whatever it is available (at a price) for whomever is really in need is better than being the low-ball guy who's shelves are bare 20 minutes after opening each day.

As usual I am in complete agreement with you, Sam, and have been saying the same thing for awhile now.

It amazes me how many people claim that an empty shelf with a 'low price' next to it is best. It's better, to you as a consumer, to have the option to purchase something for a 'high price' than to not have the option at all.

 

[docsleepy]

At the range last week, helped the new family figure out how to put a target up. I was rewarded with 46 .380 cases when they left!

It's great to see so many new people! One of my preachers is looking to get an AR. I have three or four people waiting to learn how to reload, as soon as their presses arrive. Others are buying the classic reloader.

I love going into Walmart and seeing the empty shelves! 1 billion rounds manufactured every month, and there aren't even enough left unsold to restock Walmart!

I don't think ever in the history of the world, has a population armed itself so fully and bought so much ammunition, in such a period of time. There must be more than 5 billion additional rounds in the hands of the American people Since the election.

 

[docsleepy]

Helped zero a new 30 ought six rifle for another fellow in the church. Hit a clay pigeon at 200 yards, 1 shot. I think it'll be a fine deer rifle for this 80-year-old gentleman! Son of a friend of mine, turned 18, now has a pistol caliber semi automatic rifle. He couldn't find any ARs not yet. His dad built beautiful wooden gun safe to house growing collection.

Two of my three kids now have ARs. One of them knows how to reload quite well. I think I'm up to at least 10 people I've taught how to reload. Did a Lee classic loader demo for about 30 people recently. Bet not a single one of them had ever seen a rifle case reloaded before!

And I didn't own a single firearm until November 2008.

 

[HOOfan_1]

It amazes me how many people claim that an empty shelf with a 'low price' next to it is best.

Well like Sam says, you need a balance. People who think "empty shelf with low price" is the way to go are no more incorrect than people who think "jack up the price until it stops flying off the shelf".

There needs to be a balance. Retailers need to hit their profit goals either way. The problem in this panic is, there is no telling what the supply will be. There is no telling when demand will plummit .

In the end, it is the consumer who decides what a fair price is. I don't see the ire over people complaining about prices. The retailer gets to determine their prices, the consumer gets to determine the fairness of their prices. That is true "free market". So retailers raising their prices as supply decreases and demand increases = free market. Consumers complaining about price increases and vowing never to shop at a retailer again = free market.