The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

[Skribs]

Actually Jath, organs jostled by the TWC are generally elastic enough to not be permanently damaged by the shockwave produced by handgun-caliber rounds. That is why I was saying the whole "TWC profile = proof" thing is invalid. That shockwave is what can cause a psychological stop...or it can just hurt them (possibly anger them more) or it can be ignored completely. That is why I am saying that a comparison of PWC would be better when talking about handgun ammunition.

If you are point-blank, a 5-7 will have the velocity to produce an adequate TWC. A ways away, that wanes, and you essentially have a faster-moving .22. I would use a FiveseveN if they made one that fit what I want in a gun (DAO, no manual safety); my decision to not use one has nothing to do with the caliber. I do agree that in this case, the TWC is important, although still not as reliable as PWC.
A .357 magnum has a bigger TWC but the same PWC as 9mm for a lot more recoil and generally less capacity. For a reliable stop, the 9mm wins by offering quicker follow-up shots.
My Mom can make accurate shots with a 9mm, but not with a .45. Therefore, for her, the 9mm will do more damage. She can hit COM with the 9 (placement) but not very well with a .45. If you can hit accurately with the .45, it is better for COM shots, but equal for headshots.

 

[Jath]

Everything you just said I agree with except 1 thing. .357 PWC is not the same as 9mm PWC.
ALL of the data I've seen has shown it to be similar to the .45 PWC. It's recoil is similar to the .45 as well, which many people believe is more manageable than the .40's recoil. Plus you have the increased mag capacity over the .45.

if you go here: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

You'll see if you analyze the data carefully that the .357 is more effective in real life situations as well. More single shot stops than the .45, higher kill percent than the .45, fewer shots before incapacitation, and several other things. The only thing the .45 statistically has over the .357 is accuracy, and I'm almost certain that its because people who have been shooting much longer use .45 more often.

 

[Ducman69]

I can understand the skepticism about TWC in the gut, but in the chest you're liable to hit the lungs. With smaller calibers your magazine capacity is drastically increased (compared to say 45), and certainly there is no "one shot one kill" limit and you could dump an entire magazine in short order. Since placement is key, the probability of a critical organ/nervous system hit will increase with each shot. So I don't think it matters too greatly as long as the round isn't so weak that its imparting little energy even to critical areas.

And heck, while I've read that +P+ hollowpoint 9mm can reduce the longevity of your gun fired frequently, you can plink all day with the lesser standard jacketed rounds with minimal difference in the perceived kick of the weapon, while for defensive use having a round that approaches 357 magnum power.

 

[Jath]

I'm a big fan of .357 sig. Too many gun shops don't bother with it cause it's not "popular enough". It's got nothing to do with its effectiveness.

I really want a .357 barrel for my FNX 40

 

[303tom]

Looks like the .22 pretty much beat them all, save the center fire rifle & the shoot gun.

 

[Jath]

the data on the .22 is wrong. They are either under reported, or something else weird is going on. The dude who put the data together even said that the data in that particular section was weird.

If I were you, I'd just pay attention to the area with the 4 major pistol calibers, and the bigger calibers after that.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

Many police officers can hold their own in a combat situation 4 to 1 with a 9mm, even if the bad guys have rifles and shotguns

If you think that the average officer, with his service pistol, is a match for 4 assailants with rifles then you are delusional.

 

[Jath]

the average officer, no.

Many officers, yes.

Even the average officer is at least a 2 vs 1 officer in a gun fight.

And I'm talking about shorter ranges too. Longer range, the person with the rifle is going to win every time.

 

[Frozen North]

I think you assume that most police officers train extensively with their pistol.

You know what they say about assuming things.

I know police officers that can't shoot well at all, and don't care to fix the problem.

 

[Kachok]

Pain is subjective, but rapid blood loss will drop any PCP junkie, that is why I don't depend on hydrostatic shock, hit blood bearing organs or CS with a bullet that will leave a large enough PWC to alllow rapid blood loss and you have one very dead bad guy.

 

[Skribs]

I think Jath has seen one too many episodes of CSI: Miami. I know a lot of military people who weren't infantry, and their attitude was "why do I need a gun? If the base gets stormed, I'll hand my gun to the nearest grunt and hide under a desk." These folks were military. Just because cops are issued guns doesn't mean they're really well trained. SWAT, on the other hand, do train more extensively.

Jath, those "1-shot-stop" lists are always different. It depends on how you look at the data. Most of them will exclude shots for various reasons. Situations where 1 shot would have stopped, but the shooter double-tapped are excluded. Situations where the perp would have given up anyway, but still took one shot are included. Check this out http://greent.com/40Page/general/oss.htm. Specifically, look at the example of the problem. Out of 10 cases listed, only 3 meet the criteria of the study, and so are listed as 1-shot stops (1 of the 3 the attacker still killed the shooter, but stopped 2 seconds later). There's a number of other issues listed there, I just wanted to highlight that.

I'm very surprised to hear that the .357 has a wound channel similar to a .45. The PWC is what is crushed by the bullet, and is based on the bullet's diameter (and expansion). Which design of bullet is used will make a difference (i.e. JHP vs. FMJ), but the fact remains that the .357 bullet is only 0.001" wider than a 9mm bullet. Granted, expansion varies within the caliber, as seen here (look at the Expansion column), but there's no getting around the fact that the bullets are the same size.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I would use a FiveseveN if they made one that fit what I want in a gun (DAO, no manual safety); my decision to not use one has nothing to do with the caliber.

That was how they made the first FiveseveN, if you can find one.

 

[Skribs]

Eh, I only buy guns NIB for personal reasons.

 

[GLOOB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLOOB View Post

Not the simple. Kinetic energy is transformed into TWC, sound, heat, and deformation of the bullet, itself, on impact. It's mathematically possible for a bigger bullet to do more actual damage with less energy.

Now, when you consider two projectiles that will produce identical permanent wound cavities, but one has a larger TWC, then I agree. It is probably better in some situations. Although it might actually be worse for some weird hit on bone, or whatnot.

When someone measures the energy of a round, they don't weigh the powder. That explosive energy is what is lost in heat, noise, etc. etc. They measure the velocity of the round, and calculate that with its known mass. That is how much energy the round has.

Yes, I'm fully aware of this.

As for deformation of the bullet, there is no energy lost there. a little law called conservation of energy ensures that.

I can't even begin to find any logic or proper use of scientific principles, here.

Let me try to put it into perspective. If you take a hollow point 9mm bullet, it might have about twice the kinetic energy of a punch. (As measured by the velocity and mass of just the arm, not the whole body, behind it.) Now take that hollowpoint bullet and put it into a press that will flatten/expand the bullet when you punch it. How much will it expand? I'd personally guess the expansion of a hollowpoint bullet represents a significant portion of the available energy in a low power pistol round.

Yes, there is a MINOR amount of energy turned into heat and sound at the target, but that is nominal in a soft target,

Who says it's minor? The amount of energy in a pistol round is minor to begin with. The differences between a 45ACP and .357 magnum, are even more minor.

and In fact, sound waves can cause tissue damage as well.

But if you're hearing it, those sound waves did not cause damage. The sound you hear is the energy that escaped and was transformed into noise.

Now, I'll grant that the biggest source of lost energy might well be exactly what we're discussing. That's the TWC. Until the TWC is strong enough to cause damage, much of it is simply wasted energy. This is why higher KE isn't the bottom line when it comes to pistol damage.

 

[Jath]

You are comparing non-infantry military to police. That's like comparing an office clerk to a security guard that used to be a cop. I was in the military, and most of those guys don't train with their weapons, if they even ever see them. They call em Pogues. The people in the office doing paperwork, dental assistants, secretaries. They go to basic training, and that's pretty much the last time they see a gun. Cops, and when I say cops, I mean patrol cops, train with their weapons. Some train a lot more than others. Some cops are lazy fat slobs, but there are plenty who take their jobs seriously.

Mr Skribs, the PWC does not equal the diameter of the bullet. It just doesn't. When a bullet strikes flesh, it turns the flesh it hits into projectiles as well. That widens the PWC considerably. Not to mention that faster rounds will expand faster and wider.

If you want to compare PWCs we can do that... Go find some pictures. Quit saying the same thing over and over without any proof.

 

[Brad5192]

1. Shot placement

2. Bullet design

3. State of mind

 

[Skribs]

I'm comparing humans to humans. Military and cops are both trained and issued weapons, but that doesn't mean they keep up on training. There are numerous examples of police officers failing to hit their target and others who just have no clue.

Quit saying the same thing over and over without any proof.

That's funny, especially considering how many people in this thread have been asking you to cite sources that explain why the TWC is important in the first place.

Mr Skribs, the PWC does not equal the diameter of the bullet. It just doesn't. When a bullet strikes flesh, it turns the flesh it hits into projectiles as well. That widens the PWC considerably. Not to mention that faster rounds will expand faster and wider.

I've never read of chunks of flesh being turned into a permanent wound channel, so I'd like to see your source on that. Bullets like 7.62x51mm will leave separated tissue in the PWC because their TWC is powerful enough. Faster rounds will expand more reliably, doesn't necessarily mean wider. How wide they can expand is based on the design of the bullet. How fast they expand is based on bullet design and speed, but the difference in speed won't mean much in a decently designed SD round.

The "bloodshot" effect from rifle rounds isn't from torn flesh, but from the shockwave traveling through the liquid in tissues. It's the blood itself that's causing the damage.

If you look here, you will see that bullets which do not have enough power to have a strong enough TWC have PWCs as wide as the bullet. Those which do have a strong enough TWC or which have yawing/fragmenting bullets are the ones that have the ballooned PWCs. So that leads me to believe that your assessment is incorrect.

 

[303tom]

It is all well & good .22 to .500 mag. You don`t get up after even one round from this girl, I don`t care what kind of drugs your on.

 

[45_auto]

Temporary wound cavity is an effective measure of stopping power. ... Plus it has more immediate effects on the target.

Everybody knows this. That's why they use .357 pistols on dangerous game in African safaris. Since the TWC of the .357 is larger than that caused by a rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott, .460 Weatherby Magnum, .470 Nitro Express, or .500 Nitro Express using a Barnes or Hornady solid bullet, the .357 has more "stopping power".

 

[Kachok]

LOL, that is what I have been trying to tell him since the begining, he does not listen. You simply cannot debate people that refuse to face reality. Larger caliber with heavier bullets always have a high potential for wounding for a given level of energy, I don't see and safari big game hunters wanting to trade their 375 H&H for a 7mm Ultra Mag. Or any brown bear guides willing to trade their 44 or 454 revolvers for an AR carbine.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I don't see and safari big game hunters wanting to trade their 375 H&H for a 7mm Ultra Mag.

Depends on the game, doesn't it? .375 is not preferred for leopard, but .270 (with soft-points) would be just fine.

On the other hand, .375 is probably ideal for lion, with expanding bullets preferred over more penetrative solids. Similarly, expanding rounds are generally preferred for any African game--including Cape buffalo--because of their ability to deliver more "shock" to the animal.

The sole exception is elephant, where solid bullets are always preferred, because of the unique challenge the elephat's anatomy presents to penetration.

So, yes, ability to get to the vitals is always a requirement in hunting--but a bit of shock can get you a dropped animal instead of a running (or charging!) one.

(Kevin Robertson's The Perfect Shot is a good reference; he discusses preferred calibers and bullets for many African game species.)

 

[Jath]

Everybody knows this. That's why they use .357 pistols on dangerous game in African safaris. Since the TWC of the .357 is larger than that caused by a rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott, .460 Weatherby Magnum, .470 Nitro Express, or .500 Nitro Express using a Barnes or Hornady solid bullet, the .357 has more "stopping power".

Ok, you're saying that all of these have the same energy, and the reason that the bigger ones are better is because they are bigger right? And you're claiming that .357 has the biggest temporary wound cavity as well right?

Well lets look at the rounds individually and see if you're right:

.357 Magnum: 130 gr (8.4 g) JHP 1,410 ft/s (430 m/s) 574 ft·lbf (778 J)

.458 Winchester Magnum: 300 gr (19 g) HP 2,606 ft/s (794 m/s) 4,525 ft·lbf (6,135 J)

.458 Lott: 300 gr (19 g) Barnes X 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s) 4,855 ft·lbf (6,582 J)

.460 Weatherby Magnum: 500 gr (32 g) FMJ 2,600 ft/s (790 m/s) 7,504 ft·lbf (10,174 J)

.470 Nitro Express: 500 gr (32 g) SP,FMJ 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) 5,140 ft·lbf (6,970 J)

.500 Nitro Express: 570 gr (37 g) (factory load, cordite) 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) 5,850 ft·lbf (7,930 J)

Now, Since they don't have all these rounds tested on brass fetcher, lets just go ahead and take a couple of them they have tested, and compare the Temporary wound cavity shall we? If you're right, we should see a massive .357 TWC and a slightly smaller .500 nitro TWC... because the TWC does not have any relation to the permanent wound cavity at all... of course.

Oh wait a second.... That doesn't make any sense.... you said that the TWC on the .500 would be smaller? According to this, it seems that the TWC is close to 4 times larger in volume than the .357 mag? That can't be?

OMG, could it be... a larger round traveling faster has more energy? Is it possible.... A higher energy round actually made a bigger TWC? NO WAY!

I don't know what you guys think I'm trying to say here. You clearly think I'm trying to state that energy and only energy each and every time is more important. I'm not. You also seem to think that I'm trying to say that TWC is the only important factor to the effectiveness of a bullet. Also not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that Temporary cavity being larger generally results in the Permanent cavity also being larger. This is Generally true. a .357 magnum has as large a permanent wound cavity as a .45, if not larger in some cases. I will site that picture that everyone keeps posting:



As you can see, if you actually look at the picture that is... The .357 has a similar sized wound track as the .45 in the largest section. The .357 has a larger wound track in other places though. This is not because the bullet was bigger or smaller, but because the energy transferred into the tissue was used effectively. People here keep saying that a pistol can't stretch tissue far enough to overcome its elastic strength. Well that is a false statement with the .357 mag. It can and does overcome that elasticity.

Whip out the measuring tape and calculate it if you don't believe me.

take the Average diameter of the wound tracks, I recommend at least 10 measurements. Divide that by two to get the average radius. Square it. Multiply by pi (3.1415....) Then multiply that number by the depth of the wound track. That will give you the volume of the Permanent cavity. The .357 in the above picture has a LARGER PERMANENT CAVITY. This is what I have been telling people.

I'm not trying to say one round is a deathray compared to others. I'm not coming up with imaginary physics and math. I'm a college educated person with back ground in physics, chemistry, engineering, biology, and a veteran. So before you go trying to make me sound like a nub who makes this crap up, pulling it out of my butt, do a little research. When I started out in guns, I thought .45 was the only way to go. But I wanted to know the truth.

This isn't a religion, its science. Cling to your larger caliber bullets if you must, if 45 sounds better than 357, then by all means, keep it. But know this, i you think a larger heavier round of the same energy is always better than a lighter faster round, you are mistaken. Sometimes it can be, but not always.

 

[Skribs]

LOL! You thing the .357 SIG is a .357 Magnum? Wow...there is no .357 magnum listed in that picture. I think you're also assuming that the darker coloration means a permanent cavity, and I'm not sure that's entirely the case.

If you assume dark red = PWC and light red = TWC, then the .40 S&W has a smaller TWC and ginormous PWC. But like I said, I'm pretty sure that the coloration means something else.

 

[Jath]

doesn't matter which color means what. both light and dark are bigger on the .357 than the .45

as for sig and mag being the same, I never once said that. I only used this chart to show that the slightly less powerful sig round is still more powerful than the .45

Although in reality, the difference between .357 sig and .357 mag isn't all that great.

They tend to be close enough that their data can almost be intermixed. Some sig rounds are more powerful than a lot of mag rounds.

SIG
60 gr (3.9 g) Special Application Ammunition 2,410 ft/s (730 m/s) 774 ft·lbf (1,049 J)
115 gr (7.5 g) Bonded defense JHP 1,550 ft/s (470 m/s) 614 ft·lbf (832 J)
125 gr (8.1 g) FMJ-FP Match and Bonded defense JHP 1,450 ft/s (440 m/s) 584 ft·lbf (792 J)

MAG
125 gr (8.1 g) Bonded Defense JHP 1,600 ft/s (490 m/s) 710 ft·lbf (960 J)
130 gr (8.4 g) JHP 1,410 ft/s (430 m/s) 574 ft·lbf (778 J)
158 gr (10.2 g) Buffalo Bore Heavy 1,485 ft/s (453 m/s) 774 ft·lbf (1,049 J)

Yes, you can have a mag be more powerful, but the loads cross over to the point that it's almost irrelevant which is which.

 

[Skribs]

Jath, it does matter, because what the color means makes a very big difference. As has been said above, numerous times, that you seem not to understand - the TWC in a handgun round means virtually nothing for causing reliable stops. So if all that is is a TWC, then it doesn't matter. They both penetrate to an appropriate depth, and in those snapshots we do not see the PWC.

You were talking about .357 magnum and then pointed to a picture that only had 9mm, .357 sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP listed.

What I am saying is that Temporary cavity being larger generally results in the Permanent cavity also being larger. This is Generally true. a .357 magnum has as large a permanent wound cavity as a .45, if not larger in some cases. I will site that picture that everyone keeps posting:

I'm not trying to be rude, but it sounds like you're either misinformed or trolling, with how hard you're arguing. You made some pretty pictures (and I will agree, they do show very well how the TWC would look on a torso), but people tried to explain to you that what is important is PWC and not TWC. So you've been defending the pretty pictures that you have made so vehemently, using a lot of erroneous information.

There are a lot of factors when it comes to what a round will do. The penetration and caliber will determine the permanent wound channel. Fragmentation will increase the PWC. Energy only matters in how well you can dump energy, and not muzzle velocity. The quick energy dump is what creates a TWC, as is effects such as tumbling or expansion. However, if there isn't enough velocity when the bullet rapidly decelerates, the shockwave created by the energy dump will not be strong enough to permanently damage tissue.

Think about it - when you slap your tummy, you create a TWC. Depending on whether you have a 6-pack or a keg, stuff may move around a lot more. Your tummy may be red and a little sore, but it moved back into its original position and everything is fine. Yes, it is going to be a harder slap from a bullet, but you're not going to get any permanent damage.

Thus, for handgun calibers, what matters is getting enough penetration (will it hit the vitals) and then the width of the bullet.

I know I'm ignoring placement in that statement, as I'm comparing calibers and making the assumption that both shots were placed in the same spot.