The Lead Free Ammo Movement

[Beagle-zebub]

For sure, lead oxides and other compounds of lead are dangerous. Plain old lead is pretty benign stuff.

And Mr. Byrne, let me just say that I'm a huge Talking Heads fan.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Those of us who have inhabited and rehabilitated large, dark and ancient Victorian and Edwardian homes are here to tell you that long before lead was banned in paint, the lead content was dramatically reduced. And before it was reduced, the lead content was so high, the paint SHONE. It's hard to describe what those old paint jobs looked like unless you've seen a locked room in a Victorian home, painted with that stuff, which stuff went up to as much as 50% lead, and I seriously kid you not. It was beautiful -- but not a great idea from a health standpoint. Ironically, that really old stuff didn't tend to flake off as easily as the reduced lead paint used in the middle twentieth century. The really old stuff, you'd strip or burn off, and of course you didn't sand it or inhale it, or eat it. It was huge in lead content, and yet, unless you made your kids eat it to get benefits and claims (yes, this actually did happen in the last couple of decades), it was pretty inert. Like fishing weights. Or wheel weights. Or bullets.

 

[swagner89]

in my area there is one indoor range that requires TMJ ammo to protect the health of participants. of course, they are the only ones that carry it, and charge $17 for a box of 20. tell me that's not cost prohibitive. seems like ploy to get you to pay more. i would like to know, are shooters getting sick from shooting too much? who decided that this was a problem? are there any real studies or did someone just make this crap up?

 

[Coronach]

I also agree that the cost can be prohibitive, although I do believe that if lead-free ammunition became more popular it would encourage manufacturers to find a solution to this problem.

This "problem" is physics. As was said, lead is heavy and cheap. In order to be effective for bullets, a material has to be comparatively heavy for a given unit of volume. The only really inexpensive material that does this is lead. Sure, you can develop other materials that do the same thing (heck, they can do the same thing better, e.g. depleted uranium), but since lead is a common element and is basically mined out of the ground with a minimum of processing, you're not going to find a way to manufacture a substitute material as economically. You're running into the laws of physics and economics. Sure, you can find a way to work with other materials and get the costs down via economies of scale, but it's not going to be as cheap as digging a hole in the ground and using refining techniques that predate the Roman empire.

What may make alternatives economically viable is the fact that known lead reserves are becoming depleted. This would not be a case of other methods being made more economical, but rather one of the original method becoming more expensive.

Mike

 

[jon_in_wv]

The owner of a local indoor gun range claimed he contracted lead poisoning from poor ventilation in his shop. The range was downstairs from his shop. I don't know if its true or not but he seemed honest enough.

 

[HeavenlySword]

Tungsten is much more expensive to buy and work, and is extremely toxic & carcinogenic.

DU or depletealloy is far safer, and plus at the energies military weapons are at, is self sharpening (gets pointier as it fractures). Even better, it ignites upon impact.

DU IS legal for civilians to own, in small quantities.

If you have the equipment to smelt & machine them in an noble gas atmosphere, you could make API munitions... at a cost of ~200 $ per KG if you bought commercially.

 

[BHP FAN]

I have enough lead to cast for the rest of my life.Especially if I quit casting 405 gr. .45-70,and get that .375gr. Saeco mold I've been looking at.

 

[HeavenlySword]

*insert rant about how DU will go through UN disarmament troops's plate armor like a hot knife through butter & then explode when they come to take over, and therefore is better than lead which merely reveals your location*

just kidding.

More constructively, to throttlejockey:

Lead is mildly sweet, so children will eat it if they do not know it is poisonous.

 

[HeavenlySword]

most little kids tend to stick random things into thier mouths...

they dont know its toxic, all they know is that it tastes mildly sweet.

 

[jon_in_wv]

maybe they should have used unsweetened bakers lead.

 

[ScottyB]

FWIW, I've shot Magtech TMJ w/non-toxic primers and SBR Greenmatch (non-toxic, frangible) through my P99 and they worked great (admittedly small sample size, but I digress...).

From now on I'll only shoot lead free. It's more expensive, but worth it to me.

 

[lonegunman]

Anti-gun troll???

Actually nearly all of the "research" on the dangers of lead bullets has been debunked as crap. The lead in meat thing was completely disproved last winter after anti-hunters in North Dakota tried to ban hunters from donating meat to food banks.

As far as the dangers of lead in ducks and water fowl. The numbers of ducks that research was based on were low and no doubt tens of thousands of prefectly healthy ducks had to be ignored to make it as dangerous as they proclaimed.

The next thing after lead will be to ban tungsten from ammunition because it is used in armor piercing ammunition. Then to ban copper, then ban steel because it causes rust. Ban bismuth because it is dangerous to who knows what.


The problem shooters and hunters and gun owners in general have to deal with is the basic dishonesty of anyone on the other side. The goal of whatever excuse they have is to ban civilian ownership of firearms and ammunition and ban hunting. They will support anything that gets them closer to their goal, regardless of the truth.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Well, I guess Im going to have to learn how to cast all over again going back to 1865 technology and advancing as money permits if they wussify ammo because it got something hard in it.

Hell, they ban iceballs and permit snowballs LOL. Usually school marm asks did you get hit with ice ball or snow ball as prelude to handing out punishment.

 

[BillyBA]

"lead free ammo "?

My only concern to "lead free" is not getting shot ?!
Next thing it will be , "low fat brass with fewer calories" and enviromentally friendly fire arms with extra fiber ??

 

[moooose102]

you know, the stuff came from the ground, so if we shoot it, that is where it ends back up. people get crazy about the dumbest things. personally, i believe it is becase they dont have anything else that really concerns them. life is pretty good in america, and the people who have it really good worry about stuff they shouldnt. hundreds of millions of bullets (and most of them straight lead) have been fired in the last 500+ years, and other than the ones that had a bullet hit them at speed, i really dont think you will find anyone who has suffered from shooting them. casting them, or someone who works in a bullet factory, might be a different thing. but even professional hunters / shooters do not seem to develop anything from it. the residue from the gunpowder is probably at least as dangerous as the lead. but lead is an enviromental "hot topic" so it gets blown all out of proportion.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

mooooooooooose: "personally, i believe it is becase they dont have anything else that really concerns them."

You're onto them. Hippie chicks whose allowances and trust funds finally ran out went to school and became white-haired psych majors and social workers. They've never had to make a living, and anyone who struggles so to do, must be disturbed and be either a victim or an abuser, according to their Hashbury ethos.

 

[Bezoar]

Well sure it seems nice that we should use lead free bullets to save the poor animals. However these demands and "studies" are by organizations that want to disarm us, and to end hunting.
As a side note, youll see PETA is big for lead free everything and no more hunting. They say its evil and inhumane but they were encourageing their more violent supporters for a while out west to make vietnam style booby traps for people to get killed by on popular atv two tracks.

Non lead ammo is mainly bigwith bird and turkey hunting. The problems there are that you need to get a new barrel that can survive the new pressure levels of bismuth or heavy shot loads.
At the same time the new non lead shot come in a very limited selection of shot sizes. And its hard for reloaders to get the correct size shot they need. At the same time, my good family friend admits that the no lead stuff for bird hunting just doesnt have the energy for longer ranges. Strange, they say its a "magnum" power shell, but a federa high brass load from 25 years ago reaches out farther with more power.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Bezoar: "As a side note, youll see PETA is big for lead free everything and no more hunting."

Nine years ago I was dodging does on Route 28 in Montgomery County, Maryland one fine afternoon. Their habitat had been destroyed by Habitat for Humanity, of all things, and I kid you not. So I round a bend and skid off my cruiser on the guts of one deer and plow right into the ass of another one headfirst, total highway evisceration. Headfirst into a deer's ass, on account of no hunting in Montgomery County, Maryland. They seriously discussed airlifting them over to Frederick, and I swear I am not making this up. Choplifted venisen. Man.

Yeah, hunting is inhumane.

 

[RP88]

keep in mind how many things are in your house that - in some way or another - have in them or have made contact with lead.

People act as if hunters go around dumping tons of lead off from their shotguns and whatnot, but it is simply not true.

Maybe they should worry about the hundreds of other things that are way more pollutant than lead is. Car exhaust, factory plumes, fertilizer, washing your car, etc. etc.

 

[AKElroy]

Lead ammo bans are just another one of the leftist ways to make ammo more costly. Its not a "government conspiracy", its more of a neo-liberal scam. Granted, lead is dangerous if you eat old paint chips for an afternoon snack. But numerous studies have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that hunting with lead ammo does not make the meat unsafe to eat as long as the game is properly processed. I use myself as an experiment... I have been shooting for 25 years, indoors, outdoors, and have eaten many pounds of game killed with lead. I have never had lead poisoning, or anything that resembles those symptoms.

Exactly right. Lead may not be the best food to eat, but neither is it asbestos or uranium. I really wish my dad had not let me chew on all those 177 pellets when I was a kid, though---Maybe I would have done better in school!

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Ya know, you try to avoid Hazmats, and then you wake up one morning in 1993 to find in the paper where it says that Rico Fermi and the Boys didn't clean up so well after themselves after all, back when they built the first Atomic Wedgie in 1942.

I've made Geiger Counters rave for decades. It's alright; I tell myself the rads killed all the germs the alcohol missed.

As to lead? Heck, so long as my finger nails don't look like my Dad's oak tree rings, I figure I'm alright.

 

[Hans Esker]

I am with Lonegunman and others:

Subtle Troll is subtle.