The Open Carry Debate

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HoosierQ

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The open carry debate is heating up.

It has long been my contention that there are a legion of people out there in the "middle of the road" or "straddling the fence" that don't care much one way or another about guns. I have also contended that the majority of those same people, when confronted with a choice at the ballot box to restrict freedom or to support or expand freedom, will opt to support or expand freedom. While they may not care about guns, they may have some fundamental belief in the right to self defense, and may well have interests that require some freedom to pursue (HAM radio, civil aviation).

These horrific mass murders, while shocking and gut wrenching, remain rather distant events...CNN news feeds. Most people will never encounter such a thing. These things do affect opinion but I think not so greatly.

I am very concerned that these open carry demonstrations, legal though they may be, could change the position of these middle roaders...voters we need. Now I am not talking about a gentleman here or there who shows up at the farm store or the Walmart with a holstered gun. A head or two turns, perhaps. I am talking about this business where a bunch of people plan an event and all turn up at the sandwich shop during the lunch rush with a bunch of slung AK-47s, AR-15s, and presumably some Winchesters too.

This kind of thing, in my opinion, does not serve our interest well. This sort of thing is something that takes it off CNN and puts it right there in front of these fence sitters whose votes we need so badly. No, it isn't illegal. No, nobody is getting hurt. But I think it has the tendency to paint an unflattering picture of the gun community. I find it especially pointless in the context of the expansion now of CC to all 50 states.
 
Every "civil rights" movement has those who quietly work to change perception, and those who are publicly confrontational. In many cases those displays of alternative thinking were catalytic and brought the issue to the voting public.

In most cases the middle of the roaders don't support the issue. Period. The don't participate, they have no dog in the fight. It means nothing to them if someone else has a problem with appearance, sexual choice, ethical beliefs, whatever. Just don't disturb their day.

Go to an extreme and they will support restricting everyone's rights in that area to gain security for themselves. It's NO loss to them, they don't participate and could care less. In the history of all free societies, as the small percentage keep on making evil choices, the rulemakers keep restricting them because people in social groups always demand that something be done to fix the problem. They never want to impose anything on themselves, they will always support imposing something on others who seem to be the problem.

If there is an issue with the Open Carry demonstrations, it's that the participants have no clue about social dynamics, they apparently are only considering their personal rights. Their attempt to "sell" the public that it's "OK" is simultaneously being undermined by the few who take similar guns and then shoot innocent people in an act of rage. There is a serious lack of public relations skills and it's not working out well.

It didn't work out well when the alternative sexual lifestyle groups paradely openly in public demonstrating and acting out their preferences. It didn't work out well for the Westboro group protesting against those choices and pointing out their view innocent soldiers were dying because of it.

What the public sees at one of the Open Carry demonstrations are all the hallmark indicators of a mass shooting. It remains a matter of time until a small group appear at the wrong place and time to confront an off duty LEO or CCW who mistakes their activity. And Joe Middle of the Road will likely point out that if you live by the gun, you die by the gun, just desserts.

Whatever it takes, just as long as it doesn't bother him and his family.
 
I agree with the OP. I live in northern Virginia, and from what I can see, the general feeling around here is mildly antigun. However, thanks to the rest of the state, open carry is legal and concealed-carry permits are easy to get. That may not last much longer as Virginia is gradually turning Blue. The open-carry demonstrations that we see in northern Virginia are like pouring gasoline on a fire -- they tend to make the soccer moms more aware of guns, and thus more opposed to them. For the life of me, I can't understand what the open-carry demonstrators are thinking. Their "desensitization" logic may work in areas of the country that already strongly pro-gun, but in the environment that we have here, it's definitely counterproductive.
 
These displays at restaurants and such appear to upset a lot of people because face it, guns can be dangerous in the wrong hands and the average non-gun person has no idea of the mental stability of those brazingly asserting their rights. Look at how many national chains now ask that open carry folks not do so at their establishments. Sure we, the hard core gunnies can bitch to each other about it, but there probably are more people, including gun owners that do not like these displays. The only exception I would agree with are the mass demonstrations at state capitols when anti-gun legislation is attempting passage into law. It serves as a reminder that the militia (all of us citizens) have the right to be armed to prevent tyranny.
 
I agree with the OP. I live in northern Virginia, and from what I can see, the general feeling around here is mildly antigun. However, thanks to the rest of the state, open carry is legal and concealed-carry permits are easy to get. That may not last much longer as Virginia is gradually turning Blue. The open-carry demonstrations that we see in northern Virginia are like pouring gasoline on a fire -- they tend to make the soccer moms more aware of guns, and thus more opposed to them. For the life of me, I can't understand what the open-carry demonstrators are thinking. Their "desensitization" logic may work in areas of the country that already strongly pro-gun, but in the environment that we have here, it's definitely counterproductive.
Do you live in the same Northern Virginia I do?

I OC all the time in Loudoun, Fairfax, and PWC. Nobody cares, and the ones that notice either give me a thumbs up or ask simple questions, in which case I provide them with some of Eds Open Carry cards.: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...pen-Carry-Flyers-amp-Information-Cards-STICKY

While the OC of rifles can be a bit forced (and I only OC a long gun when I'm taking my bike to the range) the OC of handguns is extremely common all around Virginia, including NOVA.

Arlington and Alexandria are not the only parts that make up Northern Virginia, and there is a reason they are called the DC suburbs. The rest of NOVA is perfectly fine with OC.
 
Come on Sam, I like this one.

Open carry is my favorite debate right after "save up a little more and buy the thing I like."
 
I don't know how it is in most States, but here all a business has to do is quietly ask that an OC'r leave the premises. If they refuse and start standing on their "rights", just have them charged with trespass and let them explain to a judge why they can invade private property. (Private in the sense it isn't city, county, State or Federally owned.)
 
No debate; terms.....

To me, there is no debate. :rolleyes:
Your area or city either permits open carry of firearms or they don't. If you comply with the laws or statues then you don't need to worry about it.
If a merchant or restaurant asks you to leave or has a "no guns" SOP, then leave. If they don't agree with your 2A views or respect your open carry rights then don't give them your $$$. Or if you can respect their point of view & be civil, put your firearms away then return to the business.
It's not complicated.
BTW: carrying rifles or shotguns isn't really "open carry". I don't know how you'd conceal a AR or shotgun in a business. :confused:
Handguns, yes, but really those weapons are either concealed or packed in holsters. "Open carry" isn't that big a deal if you are discreet or behaving in a normal civil way.
Stomping up & down the street shouting at people(like a few recent videos displayed) isn't good or productive for gun rights. :mad:

I'll close by saying a + step would be to encourage sworn LE officers & sheriffs be aware of new carry/gun laws. The "no one told me" or "I don't care." excuses aren't going to cut it in 2014. :mad:
 
Well...there is a debate. The problem is who is debating the matter.

While there was a news story here and there when WI and IL got CC passed, the buzz never really developed.

These open carry demonstrations (and I am not speaking marches and things that are carried out in the form of a demonstration at state houses and what) are stirring up people that probably otherwise would, as I noted, vote for freedom as their default. What I am seeing is a bit of an outcry about this...much more so that I saw with CC.

I offer that in my opinion, this is not a bad fight. It is, IMO, the wrong fight and may infact injur us rather than help. In fact, I am hard pressed to see how it could possibly help at all, and nearly as hard pressed to see how it would be a wash. I think frankly it's only likely result will be to harm.
 
I am hard pressed to see how it could possibly help at all,
I think you'll find, when you read through them, that that is the predominate majority opinion coming out of all those other threads I linked to.
 
Arlington and Alexandria are not the only parts that make up Northern Virginia, and there is a reason they are called the DC suburbs. The rest of NOVA is perfectly fine with OC.

I disagree. I live in the town of Vienna, and the sentiment around here and in places such as Falls Church, McLean, Fairfax City, etc., is decidedly antigun. For proof, just look at all the local antigun politicians that keep getting elected and re-elected. We even had an NRA-endorsed Delegate, Jeannemarie Devolites (wife of ex-Rep. Tom Davis), that did a 180 degree turn and became antigun when she ran for the State Senate. These people know where the votes are. (She was finally beaten by someone who was even more antigun.)

Obviously, attitudes are somewhat different in the exurbs such as Loudoun and Prince William. But the yuppies are moving out there in droves, too.
 
Posted by scaatylobo: And if I witness the idiotic OC person actually holding his weapon in the manner that was shown by those 2 asshats = I would either leave ASAP,or draw and demand they take their finger OFF the trigger and place that weapon on the ground.
Yes, it would be wise to leave, ASAP, if safely possible.

But if it is not, I'm not sure about drawing and telling someone what to do; the tome for discussion is probably over. Far too risky.

So the question is, how does one distinguish between some really stupid demonstrators and armed gunmen coming in to kill people?
 
So the question is, how does one distinguish between some really stupid demonstrators and armed gunmen coming in to kill people?

This, in a nutshell is PRECISELY why the jackwagons doing their stupid OC for effect demonstrations are doing so much damage to the RKBA movement. Not exactly winning the "hearts and minds" of the undecided, that's for certain.
 
It has long been my contention that there are a legion of people out there in the "middle of the road" or "straddling the fence" that don't care much one way or another about guns.
Not directed toward the OP or anything, but I hear this said reflexively so often, I am starting to wonder if it's actually true. Are there truly vast legions of "undecideds" out there like the pundits try to convince us every election, or are they simply incredibly ambivalent and oblivious people to whom pandering causes more trouble than their tenuous 'support' can possibly be worth? When polls for 'common sense' nonsense draw vast majorities (putting aside obvious fixes like the 95% garbage, theoretical anti-gun measures do have consistent majority support when worded vaguely) that suggests the "silent majority" are actually more incredibly unmotivated than potentially supportive of us.

I'm not saying they are antagonistic and must be defeated; I'm saying that, at best they will ignore us (and maybe convert over on an individual basis), and at worst they will shortsightedly support the anti's for brief periods of social duress. This is not to say we 'give up' on them, but that we calibrate our methods and expectations accordingly; try to calm them back to a lazy lull after traumatic news cycles, and stay out of their way while doing our utmost to present a positive face on the 'gun culture' they occasionally bear witness to on an individual basis.

My point is, that the vast majority of our disdain for the tactics of the other side are directly related to their continual pandering to this group of "non-commitals" by using emotional language and inaccurate/false evidence. But lies and propaganda are how you convince a group of unmotivated and ignorant people most effectively; if we don't do the same, we'll never compete well, so why bother chasing them in the first place? It's better to simply hold off their short-term rage, as we've shown we can certainly do, and leave the real policy making to people on both sides who are actually interested and invested in the outcome. Bringing in sideliners just increases the noise level.

TCB
 
I disagree. I live in the town of Vienna, and the sentiment around here and in places such as Falls Church, McLean, Fairfax City, etc., is decidedly antigun. For proof, just look at all the local antigun politicians that keep getting elected and re-elected. We even had an NRA-endorsed Delegate, Jeannemarie Devolites (wife of ex-Rep. Tom Davis), that did a 180 degree turn and became antigun when she ran for the State Senate. These people know where the votes are. (She was finally beaten by someone who was even more antigun.)

Obviously, attitudes are somewhat different in the exurbs such as Loudoun and Prince William. But the yuppies are moving out there in droves, too.
Come out even further west than Loudoun County and we're still winning this. I OC all the time and see others too, and there is nary a question. I think that most people probably assume LEO so there is not even a second glance. Just today at lunch my buddy (non-shooter) looked over at a group of guys who walked in the restaurant OC'ing and he said "we're safe in here today!"
I have found that is you look and act professionally than nobody pays it any mind. At least, in this part of the state.
 
OptimusPrime wrote:

I think that most people probably assume LEO so there is not even a second glance. ........ I have found that if you look and act professionally than nobody pays it any mind. At least, in this part of the state.

That's just it. These open carriers are acting under the "cover" of the tacit assumption that they are LE. And that assumption is commonplace even in the close-in Virginia suburbs of D.C., because of the many law enforcement agencies that are headquartered here. It seems like half the population has some connection with law enforcement, the military, etc.

Now, the OC demonstrators are making clear that they are ordinary civilians, and not law enforcement. Therefore, the cover of that tacit assumption falls away, and the anxiety of the soccer moms comes to the fore. The OC demonstrators are trying to create a confrontation, and they're getting one.
 
AlexanderA said:
I agree with the OP. I live in northern Virginia, and from what I can see, the general feeling around here is mildly antigun. However, thanks to the rest of the state, open carry is legal and concealed-carry permits are easy to get. That may not last much longer as Virginia is gradually turning Blue. The open-carry demonstrations that we see in northern Virginia are like pouring gasoline on a fire -- they tend to make the soccer moms more aware of guns, and thus more opposed to them. For the life of me, I can't understand what the open-carry demonstrators are thinking. Their "desensitization" logic may work in areas of the country that already strongly pro-gun, but in the environment that we have here, it's definitely counterproductive.

Then there is that incident at the Denny's in Belleville, IL, where several plain-clothes officers scared some people and management asked the officers to leave.

Corporate ended up eating a lot of "crow" over that gaffe.


FRANK - It was just ONE older woman that raised the stink at Denny's. Maybe I should have referred to this moron as an "old crone" instead of a "cow". I live near there and read the reports in the local paper at the time. They reported that it was a SINGLE, OLDER FEMALE customer that made a fuss at the restaurant.
 
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