The Open Carry Debate

[Tirod]

Characterize her as badly as you want, she has a right to express HER opinion, too. If she went to a Denny's to have a nice quiet meal, and armed men came in displaying firearms, she has every right to voice her opinion.

I've gotten as much from a number of them myself, right down to complaining about wearing a goatee, very short and trimmed. Face it, older women are expressive about what they like and don't like, and they can be in your face.

Get over it. Won't ever change.

It does point out that who we think might be sitting on the fence aren't. Just because a large group avoid expressing their opinion on the subject doesn't mean they would "vote for freedom." The will likely support their lawmakers who vote to suppress someone's rights because it doesn't look unAmerican, it looks like common sense to them.

Exactly why we DO have CCW in so many states. The public simply doesn't want to be confronted with the idea that other citizens may be violent and that self protection is necessary. That would imply that a cop won't be there in time, or worse. It disturbs their sense of a well ordered peace and people who are all being nice to each other.

Shake the foundations of that world view and they consistently vote and support to deny your rights to protect yourself. If there has been a constant trend in firearms use, it's been to keep the guns out of sight and mind as we become more "civilized." It's not the Old West, you know, why DO you have to carry a gun right out there in public, at Denny's, and disturb everyone around you with your arrogance!

To paraphrase her potential mindset.

What, of course, would be the icing on the cake are three Open Carry rifle toters with magazines inserted and fingers on triggers walking into that same Denny's while she's complaining to the manager.

Do YOU as a CCW or off Duty LEO have the responsibility to confront them? If they don't have the barrel pointed at YOU, is it lethal force? Are YOU going to escalate the confrontation by drawing, pointing a loaded gun, and yelling at an armed group to lay down their guns?

Who said they will? Having two or three semi auto rifles pointed back isn't a good thing.

I would SERIOUSLY question the thinking of anyone who went out of their way to confront a group of guys carrying rifles OC by drawing on them. The bravado of saying that would be one particularly recommended response seems more internet commando talk.

How it that going to deescalate things?

More so, what happens if the manager quickly comes to THEIR rescue, saying it's HIS store, YOU butt out? Do we not have business owners who do support RKBA, and who might cooperate?

I believe the point of the discussion over Open Carry is to exercise some common sense about the whole thing and act in a LESS confrontational manner so that gun carriers are seen as peaceable citizens, not someone likely to go off just because some dudes walked in with guns and ordered the short stack special.

Nice to see people going out of their way to "out" their behavior patterns. We get to choose which would best represent the favored response. Provoking a gunfight isn't it.

 

[LT.Diver]

I, personally, can find no upside to openly carrying. I don't want to frighten the (deleted), I don't want potential bad guys to know my capabilities, and I don't want to answer any questions from the local Barney Fifes.
I am a daily gun carrier. In cool weather I carry whatever I like. In warm weather I put an Airlite J-Frame in my pocket. No hassles, no questions, no stares, no frightened Democrats, no issues at all.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Tirod: Do YOU as a CCW or off Duty LEO have the responsibility to confront them?

Not for the purposes of addressing their behavior.

If they don't have the barrel pointed at YOU, is it lethal force?

Quite possibly a threat of imminent deadly force. It's matter of A, O, J, and P, as evidenced by the exigencies of the situation.

Are YOU going to escalate the confrontation by drawing, pointing a loaded gun, and yelling at an armed group to lay down their guns?

Absolutely not!

I would SERIOUSLY question the thinking of anyone who went out of their way to confront a group of guys carrying rifles OC by drawing on them.

When one or more persons enters an establishment with guns--whether handguns, rifles, or shotguns--in hand, the concealed carrier is at a distinct disadvantage. Drawing is a high risk, low return gambit. But if there is reason to believe that a crime of extreme violence is imminent, it may be necessary, and the opportunity may present itself.

I believe the point of the discussion over Open Carry is to exercise some common sense about the whole thing and act in a LESS confrontational manner so that gun carriers are seen as peaceable citizens, not someone likely to go off just because some dudes walked in with guns and ordered the short stack special.

I think you have missed the point. If the demonstrated intent of the "dudes" is to "make a statement" (which they will do, regardless of their "intent"), there is nothing to be done. But is that what is unfolding?

We get to choose which would best represent the favored response. Provoking a gunfight isn't it.

More accurately, we have to decide--as quickly as possible.

Do the "dudes" present an imminent threat of deadly force? Did they come in to demonstrate, or to threaten,, or to start shooting regardless? How does one tell,when their guns are in hand? Can one responsibly afford to wait? Did the guy in the colorado theater come in to express his support of the Second Amendment? Would it have been prudent to wait to find out? How about Luby's?

If the evidence indicates that their intent is deadly, the best thing to do is get out--if that is possible. But it may not be possible.

 

[buck460XVR]

I would SERIOUSLY question the thinking of anyone who went out of their way to confront a group of guys carrying rifles OC by drawing on them. The bravado of saying that would be one particularly recommended response seems more internet commando talk.

I agree....and unless they present a valid threat, drawing on them makes you the aggressor. Similar to drawing on a CWC because he accidentally exposed his weapon. As I said before, this is not about open carry, but responsible gun ownership. Drawing your weapon on folks that do not present a legitimate threat is not responsible gun ownership either. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by buck460XVR: Drawing your weapon on folks that do not present a legitimate threat is not responsible gun ownership either.

That's quite an understatement! More than that, it constitutes a very serious crime, in all jurisdictions.

The question is, would someone in an eating establishment, quick shop, or bank that is entered by several people holding unslung rifles or shotguns in their hands have reason to believe that they faced an imminent threat of death or serous bodily harm, or would they somehow be able to divine that the nut cases were harmless, misguided people who were just trying to gain support for the open carry of firearms?

"Demonstrators" handling their firearms in public in that manner and entering an occupied structure would assume a very high risk of being shot by the proprietor, police officers, or other citizens.

Keep in mind that the persons present would decide on the basis of what they knew then, not what we know now.

And they would be judged on the same basis.

 

[burk]

I, personally, can find no upside to openly carrying. I don't want to frighten the sheeple, I don't want potential bad guys to know my capabilities, and I don't want to answer any questions from the local Barney Fifes.
I am a daily gun carrier. In cool weather I carry whatever I like. In warm weather I put an Airlite J-Frame in my pocket. No hassles, no questions, no stares, no frightened Democrats, no issues at all.

Exactly, just like I'm not into my neighbors or Facebook friends knowing every gun I have. And no I'm not talking about someone who discretely OC's a pistol in a rural area. I see no tactical advantage to open carry, and lot's of disadvantages, and this open carry "because I can crowd" has done more damage to gun rights in the last six months than Bloomberg did in the last six years. There is nothing wrong with common sense people, offending people wether they are ignorant or not is not a strategy. :banghead:

And frankly I believe we were turning the tide of public opinion until these people started showing up in the Chipoltes of the world.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by burk: I see no tactical advantage to open carry, and lot's of disadvantages, ...

There are advantages and disadvantages, which are mostly situationally dependent. We have a new thread on the subject in ST&T, "Considerations Regarding the Concealed and Open Carry of Firearms".

...this open carry "because I can crowd" has done more damage to gun rights in the last six months than Bloomberg did in the last six years.

It's hard to argue wit that.

 

[buck460XVR]

I, personally, can find no upside to openly carrying. I don't want to frighten the (deleted), I don't want potential bad guys to know my capabilities, and I don't want to answer any questions from the local Barney Fifes.

Then you have never had the opportunity to open carry someplace where folks don't take a second glance. Open carry means you are not restricted to a specific holster or clothing to hider your weapon appropriately, but yet allow it to be drawn. Open carry can mean more comfortable carry and easier access. Open carry is not encroaching on others space, their comfort or their safety if it is done responsibly and with respect.......same as with concealed carry or when one open carries while hunting. Open carry is a convenient way to carry your weapon when it is being used for casual purposes more than for SD. Believe me.....Not everyone in every situation goes berserk simply at the sight of a firearm. Not everyone feels the need to draw their SD weapon just because they see someone else with a gun. If a woman wears a topless bathing suit to a Church picnic, she will get noticed and be confronted. If she takes off her top in Sturgis during bike week, she better be or have something exceptional, otherwise folks won't know she's there.

No one is promoting the brandishing of long guns in public places as responsible and intelligent gun ownership. No where has anyone said that walking around with your finger on the trigger is safe and responsible gun ownership. But just as most of us don't want others to have the impression that all gun owners are Sandy Hook mass murderers, those folks that OC responsibly don't want to be identified with the mall ninjas scarin' the little old ladies at Starbucks/Chipotle. It's bad enough that antis can't see the difference, but when it's fellow gun owners?

 

[Mainsail]

Then you have never had the opportunity to open carry someplace where folks don't take a second glance. Open carry means you are not restricted to a specific holster or clothing to hider your weapon appropriately, but yet allow it to be drawn. Open carry can mean more comfortable carry and easier access. Open carry is not encroaching on others space, their comfort or their safety if it is done responsibly and with respect.......same as with concealed carry or when one open carries while hunting. Open carry is a convenient way to carry your weapon when it is being used for casual purposes more than for SD. Believe me.....Not everyone in every situation goes berserk simply at the sight of a firearm. Not everyone feels the need to draw their SD weapon just because they see someone else with a gun. If a woman wears a topless bathing suit to a Church picnic, she will get noticed and be confronted. If she takes off her top in Sturgis during bike week, she better be or have something exceptional, otherwise folks won't know she's there.

No one is promoting the brandishing of long guns in public places as responsible and intelligent gun ownership. No where has anyone said that walking around with your finger on the trigger is safe and responsible gun ownership. But just as most of us don't want others to have the impression that all gun owners are Sandy Hook mass murderers, those folks that OC responsibly don't want to be identified with the mall ninjas scarin' the little old ladies at Starbucks/Chipotle. It's bad enough that antis can't see the difference, but when it's fellow gun owners?

HUGE +1

I've had dozens of positive encounters in close quarters (stores, restaurants, etc), one angry person, and one debater. Twice I've had unknown people shout encouragement out the window of a passing car as I walked down the street. I've been thanked more times than I kept count of, although I'm not sure for what in particular they were thanking me. The only reliably negative encounters were with police officers- I emphasize were because it doesn't happen to me any more.

Yet, every time the topic comes up, someone who doesn't open carry regularly or has never openly carried a handgun will come in and state factually that they wouldn't do it because it scares people. I think that means it scares them, and they're projecting their own nervousness with *others* carrying.

Responsible open carry is as unlike what those Texas yahoos do as responsible concealed carry is unlike what muggers and rapists do.

...and I don't want to answer any questions from the local Barney Fifes

We don't have those here- mostly good officers with only a few who want to stray off the base. Now that they know OC is lawful they aren't going to be detaining anyone to ask questions if the only observable action is/was open carry. Open carry is lawful and it is illegal for the police to detain a person for lawful behavior- even if some ninny called.

 

[scaatylobo]

PLEASE,read and understand

I was an LEO for 26 years,and in MY state [ that is what MY judgement is based upon ] it is a THREAT WITH A GUN [ deadly physical force ] to walk into anyplace [ other than your home ] with a firearm in a "present arms" manner.

Holding a long gun in your hands,AND in a manner that shows me [ yes I taught firearms ] that you intend to USE that firearm = equals THREAT of deadly physical force.

Same firearm SLUNG BEHIND YOUR SHOULDER = no threat.

I truly wonder at what point any who oppose my view,would actually see a threat by that ARMED MAN holding that rifle / shotgun.

Imagine for a moment that the same OC ,came into that same store / theater etc = with a handgun in hand !.

I see BOTH as the same threat level.

I have had the pleasure [ ? ] of taking more than a few down at gunpoint [ yes they were armed too ] and even though retired,I KNOW A THREAT WHEN I SEE ONE.


btw = guns do NOT in any manner scare me,they are HARMLESS.

Its the person that is CARRYING one that I find as a threat.

And if any here are EVER challenged to "DROP THAT GUN" ,I would pray they understand that they are perceived as a threat and very likely to be shot if they do not comply.

rant over,my 00.02cents are in.

 

[larryh1108]

But just as most of us don't want others to have the impression that all gun owners are Sandy Hook mass murderers, those folks that OC responsibly don't want to be identified with the mall ninjas scarin' the little old ladies at Starbucks/Chipotle. It's bad enough that antis can't see the difference, but when it's fellow gun owners?

Very well put and sums up my thoughts, exactly.

 

[Mainsail]

I was an LEO for 26 years,and in MY state [ that is what MY judgement is based upon ] it is a THREAT WITH A GUN [ deadly physical force ] to walk into anyplace [ other than your home ] with a firearm in a "present arms" manner.

If said yahoos were walking around like that they would be breaking the law in Washington.

Look, I don't want to side with them, but let's keep it reality based. They don't walk around in the pose you (all) see in the picture. They walk around with the rifle slung on their back in a non-threatening manner. They posed for the picture like you see them. If you walked into the restaurant and saw them like that, you'd also undoubtedly see the fellow clown with the camera taking their picture.

If any gun carrier were to walk in and see two clowns posing for a camera and feels the need to draw on them, they have no business carrying a firearm in public. If you are that situationally UNaware you are a danger to the public.

 

[krupparms]

I believe Buck & Mainsail summed it up very well! Good job +1!

 

[TennJed]

I am for open carry if you carry it in a holster. The comfort argument goes out the window without it. There are more comfortable ways to sit in a Waffle House booth than with a rifle slung across your back.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

I am for open carry if you carry it in a holster. The comfort argument goes out the window without it. There are more comfortable ways to sit in a Waffle House booth than with a rifle slung across your back.

Unless you live in a state that does not permit the open carry of handguns.

 

[TennJed]

Unless you live in a state that does not permit the open carry of handguns.

Then it would be wise to not do something stupid to hurt the possibility of getting open carrying of handguns legal in that state. Like carrying rifles in Chipotle with sole purpose of drawing attention

 

[Praxidike]

I think it's inappropriate to carry long guns slung around your back into a certain stetting in certain areas especially when you already know that it's not the common thing to do there. To me, all theses open carry fools are simple seeking attention and looking to argue much like those idiots (IMHO) on you tube who walk around with a gun in one and and a camera in the other waiting for a L.E. to show up so that he can pick a verbal fight.

I'm in VA as well in the Liberal Hampton Roads area. I've seen a people on separate occasions carry a holstered handgun while shopping in Walmart or while riding a motorcycle and no one seemed to care. Now in a group of people walked around Walmart with shot guns, AKs, and ARs, then I'd be a different story. To me it's a matter of respect.

 

[Praxidike]

Then it would be wise to not do something stupid to hurt the possibility of getting open carrying of handguns legal in that state. Like carrying rifles in Chipotle with sole purpose of drawing attention

Exactly... They're feeding right into the antigunners hands when they do that. They're fitting into the negative stereotype aka the mold that they created for all gun owners.

 

[Tirod]

We're getting down to some separate issues, and the overall phrase "open carry" covers a lot.

A pistol in a holster? Done all the time, and every uniformed officer who carries is the biggest example we see on an almost daily basis. Open carry in that manner is something most people don't react to precisely because we are so used to it.

But, apparently, the Chipotle dudes aren't doing that. They are slinging across their back in a non threatening manner. Much the same as the country grocery store during hunting season, where someone might have literally walked in to buy lunch. The context of the situation delivers the answer - most of the time, we know the time of year, at least, where we are, urban or rural, etc. Seeing 500 guys with M4's slung across their back would be a lot more palatable if you also were told it happens in a chow hall deployed overseas. Context is important.

And having a photographer present to document them there would add to the interpretation. As opposed to a single individual stepping thru a broken window at a school, gun at port arms, magazine inserted, finger on trigger (it's still bad discipline.)

So, for all the hype we may be inserting into the situation, what is really happening are some guys shuffling in with guns ON THEIR BACK, and wandering down an aisle to take a picture. All in one small area of Texas where carrying a pistol openly isn't allowed.

We sure are taking a lot of umbrage out of three guys in a nation of 280 million. A couple of photos on Facebook and everybody rushes to see if there's already a thread on it so they can write about "those idiots" and what damage is being done.

I have yet to see this getting any traction on the national media. Are there TV vans arranging to be at the next demonstration?

It's really a local Texas policy issue, and - give them some credit - they have raised it to the national level, at least on the internet forums. Despise their tactic as much as we want, they aren't doing exactly what we think they are - wandering around in public with guns locked and loaded pieing the corners or flicking their eyes restlessly in Condition Red. I don't see them going all gecko45 with this, do you?

Just shuffle in, pose, leave.

The responses, tho, range all the way to "DROP YOUR WEAPONS OR I'M GONNA SHOOT!"

Seems the reality is that a lot of internet posters are the ones overreacting. None of these incidents have even got the old matrons to complain to management, unlike Denny's.

My question is: are Texans getting gamed by anti gunners by making this issue a non starter for political reform? Previously, I got the impression that most gun guys in Texas would like to see the law changed, even if they didn't plan to exercise the right. Just seemed dumb to have CCW but not OC in Texas, for crying out loud, it's a national focal point of old Westerns to have open carry there.

Now, I read a lot of guys completely alienated and unsupportive. Is that what gun carriers in Texas want, leave a restrictive law on the books?

Frankly, it's a Texas issue, and should be left only to them to decide.

 

[gamestalker]

Having been an Arizona or New Mexico resident for most of my life, I am very comfortable and accustomed to oc-ing. These two states have had no permit OC for as long as I can remember, or for as long as I've been carrying, which is about 45 years. It's a daily experience to see other's oc-ing also.

And I think once a few begin carrying OC, the general public will begin to relax with the sight of guns on the hips of good law abiding citizens, especially if they happen to see someone they know to be a respected individual OC-ing.

GS

 

[Praxidike]

We're getting down to some separate issues, and the overall phrase "open carry" covers a lot.

A pistol in a holster? Done all the time, and every uniformed officer who carries is the biggest example we see on an almost daily basis. Open carry in that manner is something most people don't react to precisely because we are so used to it.

But, apparently, the Chipotle dudes aren't doing that. They are slinging across their back in a non threatening manner. Much the same as the country grocery store during hunting season, where someone might have literally walked in to buy lunch. The context of the situation delivers the answer - most of the time, we know the time of year, at least, where we are, urban or rural, etc. Seeing 500 guys with M4's slung across their back would be a lot more palatable if you also were told it happens in a chow hall deployed overseas. Context is important.

And having a photographer present to document them there would add to the interpretation. As opposed to a single individual stepping thru a broken window at a school, gun at port arms, magazine inserted, finger on trigger (it's still bad discipline.)

So, for all the hype we may be inserting into the situation, what is really happening are some guys shuffling in with guns ON THEIR BACK, and wandering down an aisle to take a picture. All in one small area of Texas where carrying a pistol openly isn't allowed.

We sure are taking a lot of umbrage out of three guys in a nation of 280 million. A couple of photos on Facebook and everybody rushes to see if there's already a thread on it so they can write about "those idiots" and what damage is being done.

I have yet to see this getting any traction on the national media. Are there TV vans arranging to be at the next demonstration?

It's really a local Texas policy issue, and - give them some credit - they have raised it to the national level, at least on the internet forums. Despise their tactic as much as we want, they aren't doing exactly what we think they are - wandering around in public with guns locked and loaded pieing the corners or flicking their eyes restlessly in Condition Red. I don't see them going all gecko45 with this, do you?

Just shuffle in, pose, leave.

The responses, tho, range all the way to "DROP YOUR WEAPONS OR I'M GONNA SHOOT!"

Seems the reality is that a lot of internet posters are the ones overreacting. None of these incidents have even got the old matrons to complain to management, unlike Denny's.

My question is: are Texans getting gamed by anti gunners by making this issue a non starter for political reform? Previously, I got the impression that most gun guys in Texas would like to see the law changed, even if they didn't plan to exercise the right. Just seemed dumb to have CCW but not OC in Texas, for crying out loud, it's a national focal point of old Westerns to have open carry there.

Now, I read a lot of guys completely alienated and unsupportive. Is that what gun carriers in Texas want, leave a restrictive law on the books?

Frankly, it's a Texas issue, and should be left only to them to decide.

I disagree. many on the stories on open carriers I hear coming out of Texas have been people showing up with long rifles knowing antigun groups would be having a meeting, or walking into Walmart, malls, grocery stores, etc with cameras following them hoping to get a reaction. I have not head much or looking into the Chipotle case, but still walking into these public places with long guns are having an impact and a negative one at that. It's more than a Texas issue when their actions are a reflection on everyone else AND when there action are affection some company policies in other states. The antigunners have painted a stereotype and some gun owners are playing right into it.

 

[Praxidike]

Having been an Arizona or New Mexico resident for most of my life, I am very comfortable and accustomed to oc-ing. These two states have had no permit OC for as long as I can remember, or for as long as I've been carrying, which is about 45 years. It's a daily experience to see other's oc-ing also.

And I think once a few begin carrying OC, the general public will begin to relax with the sight of guns on the hips of good law abiding citizens, especially if they happen to see someone they know to be a respected individual OC-ing.

GS

I think some gun owners are looking at the situation through rose colored glasses and from their own point of view. The facts are that people aren't warming up to the thought of open carry by a group of people unexpectedly filing into a restaurant with rifles and AR14s. The oppisite is happening thus all the hullabaloo from the NRA, other gun owners, and some businesses. Add that to the fact of all the resent overly publicized shootings in this country.. Some people who have not been around guns are on edge, and actions like this are scaring them more than making them feel more comfortable around these types of firearms.

I know it maybe legal, but why bring a whole bunch of long guns into a public restaurant knowing that it may cause a stir? Why not just carry a holster pistol or drop the long guns at home? What's the point of carrying a shotgun or AR15 into a Starbucks, Denny's, etc?

 

[larryh1108]

Just shuffle in, pose, leave.

Well, with the nation being exposed to shooting after shooting, what should be the appropriate response? If 3 guys plan to take out a McDonalds on video, for their fame and sickness, we wait for them to start shooting while it's being filmed?

If they walk in with their rifles sling on their backs, it's not as alarming as when they reach around, remove the rifle and hold it like they are going to shoot.... and pose for a picture. How cute. Now, after the picture they start shooting. Innocent? Maybe until they start to shoot and don't claim it can't happen. Idiots get ideas to wreak their carnage from youtube videos and sensationalized news broadcasts.

So, it's all harmless until the day someone starts to shoot. Some sicko who wants the most exposure he can get while a buddy films it. How are we supposed to know if it's harmless or if it's a setup to a mass slaughter? The camera means nothing. Keep it on your back and only a few are antsy. "Unholster" it and everyone gets antsy. Hold it at the low ready and expect someone to see enough and arm themselves. Sure, it may be innocent but it could, just as easily, be deadly. How long does someone who is present decide it's fun or it's murderous? It's akin to someone walking in with a holstered gun and then removing it from his holster for a picture. No one should be alarmed? Should we wait until the shots start to ring out? When is it ok to confront them and find out why they are doing what they are doing?

I don't know about you but if 2 buffoons walk in with a rifle in their hands, camera or not, I have my pistol hidden in my hands, ready to fight for my life. I don't buy "cute, harmless fun" as a reason to not be ready to fight for my life. If, in their moment of fun, they sweep the patrons it may be their last, stupid act. I'd feel sorry for the guy who would shoot them but I couldn't blame him. Playing with fire can surely lead you to get burned.

 

[SuperNaut]

AFAIAC there is no open carry debate. Private businesses set the rules on their property.

The last guy to OC an AR15 as a political statement here in gun-loving Utah was soundly mocked by everyone.

 

[scaatylobo]

Larryh1108

THANK YOU, since we see it the same way.

A threatening manner with a firearm in public is s threat,PERIOD.

I can write that deposition in my sleep as to why I saw DPF as required.

AND any and all "cameras" will back up my point.

If at all possible,I would EXIT stage left [ or right ] and call it in.

I am not "on the job" and not required to run toward gunfire as I once did.

Besides I expect I would be with my wife and or friends and want to get them away from any threat.