These cartridges would not fire.
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Pat Riot
Contributing Member
I agree.
@aaaaa what is this “Brand X” ammo that gave you problems?
What other ammo do you have for testing?
The problems I first noticed with my 442 were with my own hand loads during the ammo shortage of Covid (The Silliness). Plus I lived in CA at the time so high ammo prices for the rest of the U.S. were much higher in CA due to price gouging and a captive audience.
Anyway, I found the thread where I got a lot of great help from the good folks right here on THR.
This was my adventure:
J Frame Spring Questions
Howdy, Last week I discovered that my ever reliable S&W 442 needed some work. I started getting light primer strikes 1 or 2 times with every cylinder of ammo I fired. The ammo had CCI. primers, but it had never had a problem with them before and I refuse to load ammo to match a light hammer...
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They might look light because they strike was light, or because they simply didn't go bang. AFAIK, the deep dimple you see in fired cases is caused after the initial FP strike, when the fired case/primer slams back into the firing pin. I agree with the recommendations to try some factory ammo by well-known ammo manufacturers.
OP
OP
aaaaa
Member
Taking Brand X, Winchester white box, plus a box of PMC and a box of NORMA. Taking both 442s and the Bond derringer.
No cylinder end shake.
Not sure will S&W do warranty on second hand gun?
Will reveal Brand X after I determine if it is the gun or the ammo, probably will also contact them about it.
No cylinder end shake.
Not sure will S&W do warranty on second hand gun?
Will reveal Brand X after I determine if it is the gun or the ammo, probably will also contact them about it.
Dave DeLaurant
Member
I'm in the "something's probably wrong with the primer" caucus. My guess would be overly-hard primer cups.
One time I tried magnum small rifle primers (CCI 450) in some handloads and found the somewhat lightly-sprung striker of my CZ 527 barely dented the things -- only about one in three went off on the first attempt.
Military primers are also frequently manufactured with harder cups to reduce slamfires. Perhaps these guys were using a batch of surplus military production primers?
One time I tried magnum small rifle primers (CCI 450) in some handloads and found the somewhat lightly-sprung striker of my CZ 527 barely dented the things -- only about one in three went off on the first attempt.
Military primers are also frequently manufactured with harder cups to reduce slamfires. Perhaps these guys were using a batch of surplus military production primers?
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HB
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There is certainly an issue with the gun. I would get some stock springs back in the gun and clean the firing pin/transfer bar area.
OP
OP
aaaaa
Member
I've been told Winchester is not the best.
As far as hard primers, I suspect the Bond derringer will work.
I am not sure I should run the no fire cartridges through my other 442. Maybe go straight to the Bond derringer, then try fresh Brand X in the 442-1 and 442-1 along with the other brands. Not a lot of time so probably two cylinders each gun each ammo. That is a lot.
As far as hard primers, I suspect the Bond derringer will work.
I am not sure I should run the no fire cartridges through my other 442. Maybe go straight to the Bond derringer, then try fresh Brand X in the 442-1 and 442-1 along with the other brands. Not a lot of time so probably two cylinders each gun each ammo. That is a lot.
trackskippy
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Not saying its not the case here, but for the past couple of years, Ive been using small rifle primers exclusively in all my small pistol cases, and haven't had one issue due to it. Take that back, when you size/deprime them, they sometimes need two passes to clear the primer from the pocket for some reason. Other than that, they work great.
The way the availability of primers has been the past couple of years, it just made more sense to me to just buy the SRP's and use them for both rifle and pistol, at least for my "blasting" ammo.
Wasn't hard to find. I'd ask them about the primer - it's interesting that they have two offerings using your bullet, and one of them specifically lists that they're made with CCI primers. CCI primers tend to be hard, which, depending on your gun, could be an issue, but I'm wondering about the primers used in the other option - if this is the option you got, I wonder if they use something even harder than CCI.
trackskippy
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I havent had any trouble with Winchester pistol primers. I used to use them pretty much exclusively before the COVID debacle. Their primers are brass colored vs things like CCI. That way, if I dropped one on the floor while priming cases, and found it later, I knew it was a pistol primer and not a rifle primer. Turned out, that's not an issue with the small rifle anyway.
You can try the ones that didn't go off in the other gun. You never know. Most of the time when I get one that doesn't go off, they normally don't go off on the second try, but some do.
Sometimes if you get a primer that didn't seat fully, it can take some of the power from the firing pin strike as it can or will try to finish seating the primer with the strike and that takes away from it. I think its more of an issue with the revolvers than the autos, and Ive seen the same thing go on with my 22 revolvers when their chambers start to get dirty and if Im not careful seating the rounds into the chambers.
OP
OP
aaaaa
Member
What is the problem with CCI primers? That is what I got. Now I have to check the .44 Special and ,.41 Magnums I bought to see if those are CCI.
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aaaaa
Member
how does that work?
trackskippy
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Theres nothing wrong with CCI. They are mostly what I use these days, and have always worked fine for me, both rifle and pistol.
With autoloading rifles, they are what you want, as things like Winchester and Federal can be a tad sensitive and more prone to slamfiring.
With autoloading rifles, they are what you want, as things like Winchester and Federal can be a tad sensitive and more prone to slamfiring.
OP
OP
aaaaa
Member
Also, anyone know if the pencil test for firing pin is even applicable to revolvers. I look on You Tube and all the vids are for semiautos.
Not normally a "problem", other than they're known to be relatively hard. Your 442 might have issues with CCI primers, or it might've been tweaked enough to have issues. Being small to begin with, J-frames are mechanically disadvantaged when it comes to hammer speed and firing pin power unless the factory compensates with a heavier spring (which is why the trigger pull of a J-frame often feels relatively heavy). If you've got a service-sized revolver, try your new ammo in it. As mentioned, I'd also try it in your 442-1, and try some Federal and/or Winchester ammo in the 442-2
trackskippy
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I just tried the pencil thing with my 642 and a 2" model 10. The pencil cleared the barrel on the 642 by a foot or so, with the model 10, it hit the ceiling and left a dot.
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Don't make it more confusing when it's easy to test.
Buy a box of name brand ammo (not factory reloads) Try name brand ammo. If they work then it's the ammo
If not buy a new mainspring, replace and try that>
Buy a box of name brand ammo (not factory reloads) Try name brand ammo. If they work then it's the ammo
If not buy a new mainspring, replace and try that>
OP
OP
aaaaa
Member
So the 442-1 that did not try the Brand X yet, shot the pencil out first try, though only cleared the barrel by an inch or two. That is with a new unsharpened pencil, lead side to the firing pin and eraser up. For the 442-2 it did not clear the barrel and I tried it about 6-8 times and finally the pencil cleared the barrel, but not by as much as the 442-1.I just tried the pencil thing with my 642 and a 2" model 10. The pencil cleared the barrel on the 642 by a foot or so, with the model 10, it hit the ceiling and left a dot.
Guess I need to take a pencil to the gun shop every time I shop a gun.
Jim Watson
Member
Smith puts in strong mainsprings to fire hard primers. Customers put in weak springs and call it a "trigger job." The shady guy who got a tv show around his store and shop specialized in a soft spring trigger job.
Unless you want to dedicate the gun to Federal ammo and primers, a fresh full power mainspring would be a cheap treatment, maybe a cure.
I've only ever done it with eraser down. Don't know if it matters, but I'd see if there's a difference. Maybe also try it both ways (eraser up & down) in your .44/.41 mags as a "control" to be sure your pencil is ok (I'm a scientist by training, and we tend to be "control" freaks
)
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
If you read my last post in the thread I posted earlier you will see what I wrote about CCI primers. Seat them well and they work great. They’re pretty much my favorite primer.
Years ago someone did a study of CCI, Winchester and Federal primers. Their test proclaimed the metal cup material of all 3 brands to be similar but CCI a bit stiffer. Their supposition was that the primer ignition formulas were different. CCI was supposedly less sensitive, Winchester was “medium” sensitive and Federal “most” sensitive of the 3.
I don’t know if that is true or not. All I know is if I have a gun that will not set off CCI primers the gun is worthless to me until it does.
Lightly-sprung "Gamer" guns are tuned for a light DA trigger pull, and are often referred to as "Federal-only" guns, referring to their requirement for fully-seated Federal primers. My gamer guns weren't quite Federal-only (though I only used Federal as extra insurance), but they definitely wouldn't light off CCI primers. Any factory actions I have has no issues with CCI primers.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Yeah, I know. I used to shoot cowboy action. Some of those boys had guns that just barely set off Federal primers.