To Christian Gun Owners: Why do you disagree with the Amish position?

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It is my belief that the Old Testament is a guide to running a society. The New Testament is a guide for your personal life.

Many that believe Jesus was a pacifist tend to forget about him driving the vendors out of the temple. He did not advocate standing by while evil was being committed. Rather by his actions he advocated that evil should be dealt with swiftly and sternly. So yes, I disagree with the Amish beliefs. Even though I disagree with them, I will defend to the death their right to believe as they wish. Even if they will not do the same for me.
 
Personally I respect a genuine nonviolent position, if honestly held and held to it is an act of great courage.
I however am a pagan, I intend to leave the world the way I entered- Kicking and screaming
 
I believe God put us on Earth to serve many functions (and each may be in different ways.) And one of those functions may be to eliminate Evil if we have th oppotunity (and I do believe in Evil vs. "bad").

Even though I disagree with them, I will defend to the death their right to believe as they wish. Even if they will not do the same for me.
Ditto, and will also add that were the majority of people able to live their lives as morally (not necessarily with ALL their beliefs, just the morality/honesty) as the Amish/Mennonites do, the world would be a better place.
 
Thanks for the compliments, all.

Christ spoke of having "legions of angels" at His command, and did not tell his followers to get rid of swords He knew they had.

Luke 22

35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.
 
Bible believing. Seminary educated. CCW for 15 years now. I agree with just about everything that was quoted in the first post with the exception of:

Hopefully the attacker will have at least had a glimpse of the love of Christ in our nonviolent response.

When Jesus Christ came for the first time, there was an expectation that he would establish His kingdom as promised in the Old Testament. It did not happen because the fullness of the Gentiles had yet to be realized. The Kingdom of God is not being built on violence, but on faith in Jesus Christ. the time will come when it is no longer being built, but will be established. The preparations for that are being made right now.

Turn the other cheek is a very specific reference to personal insult. In the most literal sense, we are to forgive insult that does not really do injury. After this, it gets a little grey, with no specific passage giving explicit direction. However, as I have already seen quoted, we are to be good stewards of what God has given us.

I thank God for the money he brings into our family's life, and the food he gives us, but I still work for that. Why would I not work to protect my family? To not provide for their protection in every way available to me would be like refusing to have a fire extinguisher on hand, or take my child to the doctor for a disease.

I could write an entire sermon on this, but I will try to keep it brief with three observations. First, a quote from Daniel regarding how the Lord keeps me. Nebuchadnezzar, king of Bablylon is speaking first here.

and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17 "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18 "But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."
(Dan 3: 15b-18 NASB)

Pacifist or not, the saints of God have the confidence that He will preserve them regardless of whether or not they lose their life here on earth. This is what we are seeing in the Amish right now.

Second thought. People, mostly non-Christians, but also a lot of Christians, view Jesus as some kind of hippy like do-gooder who was wimpy and just wanted us all to love one another. His attributes of love and patience are often mistaken for weakness. What many people do not realize is that He is the Lord Sabaoth - Lord of Hosts - or as I used to tell my Mennonite Sunday School class, the biggest baddest general of the biggest baddest army in all of creation. When He returns it is not going to be with a smile on His face, and He will wipe out evil once and for all (in a very specific and planned out way). You can read about it in Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Joel, Matthew, and many other places besides.

I am sure there are those who will take issue with me, and I say to them, that God's plan is not dependent on anything that I or anyone else believes. He knows what He is going to do, and I am confident in His ability to do it in my life and in that of the entire world. But until He arrives to take me home, I will carry my Bible in one hand and my gun in the other.
 
Not attempting to defend yourself reminds me of the parable (or story) of the man who is in a building during a flood and refuses to leave because he believes god will save him. As the first floor fills up with water a boat comes and they offer to rescue him. He says don't worry about me, God will save me. The second floor floods so he moves to the roof. A helicopter comes and offers to rescue him and he says don't worry about me, God will save me. Eventually the roof floods and he dies and goes to heaven. He asks God, why didn't you save me? I have been your loyal servant all my life and I have had complete faith in you. To which God replies, I sent you a boat and a helicopter, what do expect me to do?

God gave us the greatest nation on earth that legally guarantees us the right to defend ourselves with the best possible equipment for the job. What more can we expect from him? We believe that mutilating the body is a sin, we believe that comitting suicide is a sin, how is throwing away our lives and the lives of others when he gaves us the tools a good idea?

I write this as someone who was raised Jewish, I am currently agnostic or between religions as I like to call it.
 
People, mostly non-Christians, but also a lot of Christians, view Jesus as some kind of hippy like do-gooder who was wimpy and just wanted us all to love one another.
Before I was saved, I had a friend who hated Christians. He always pointed out that "if Jesus were here, he'd be hanging out with the druggies and hookers, man!" Maybe so, if He were here with the same intent that He was here for 2000 years ago. But when He returns, be it next week, next year or another 1000 years from now, He will not be coming to "hang with the druggies and hookers." He'll be coming to judge them.;)
 
When I was growing up, we'd go on trips to the Lancaster area just about every summer, and I think my Dad still goes to the "Rough&Tumble" steam equipment & farming shows. I've studied quite seriously with pacifists, though I still can't claim to be one wholeheartedly. But, here's my question...
If it's OK for an Amish man to hunt, and hunt with a firearm, is it OK for him to shoot a bear that comes charging at him?

If not, OK, I can (try to) accept that. But if it is, why is it NOT OK to shoot a man, even if you must wait until after he's shown murderous intent (fires the first shot, slashes a loved one's throat, etc)?

I've been thinking about this, and pacifism, over the past day or so. Haven't found a satisfactory answer yet.
 
I've been thinking about this, and pacifism, over the past day or so. Haven't found a satisfactory answer yet.

I don't think you're going to find one here Coach. It is sort of like asking a bunch of cats why a dog licks the hand of the man who just kicked him! ;) I do not mean that in a derogatory way at all, but it is a mindset that just isn't present in a bunch of people who own guns for self defense. We can talk about it, write about it, describe it to our heart's content, but I don't think that there are too many, if any, pacifists here on this board in the spirit of the Amish we are discussing. I have many friends who are very close, and we have discussed it many a time, but we have never ever been able to come to a conclusion that is mutually satisfying. I can't understand why they wouldn't stand up and fight, and they can't understand why I would. While it is instilled as an environmental factor, I think there may be some genetic hardwiring that contributes as well. but that is only a theory.
 
I have tremendous respect for the Amish people, their faith, and their way of life. I choose to make choices for my life and family that are different from the Amish in many ways. However, I will not criticize the choices the Amish make according to their faith, conscience, and reading of Scripture.

Michael Courtney
 
Quote:
People, mostly non-Christians, but also a lot of Christians, view Jesus as some kind of hippy like do-gooder who was wimpy and just wanted us all to love one another.
Before I was saved, I had a friend who hated Christians. He always pointed out that "if Jesus were here, he'd be hanging out with the druggies and hookers, man!" Maybe so, if He were here with the same intent that He was here for 2000 years ago. But when He returns, be it next week, next year or another 1000 years from now, He will not be coming to "hang with the druggies and hookers." He'll be coming to judge them.
Yes, He might have been hanging out with them, but not the purpose your friend was thinking. :)
 
I believe personal rights and personal responsibilities are two sides of one coin. The Amish apparently want to have the personal rights without assuming the responsibilities that come with those rights.
 
No, I was thinking of Bible stories where Christ hung out with prostitues and tax collectors for the purpose of offering them salvation just like everyone else. The holier-than-thou types of the time were horrified that he would even associate with those people. However, he did not participate in prostitution/sin nor do I think would he participate in the drug culture mentioned above.

Just my 2 cents. It probably devalues the penny though. :)
 
I am a Christian and a LEO...
Before entering into LE, I had already planned on carrying a handgun when the state sends me my CC permit...
IMHO, the 'turn the other cheek' passage is geared toward personal attackes (i.e. assaults on your character, etc.)...however, the OT is full of passages clearing the man who kills in defense of his family.
An absolute pacifism stance doesn't end all evil. Evil is not overcome by running from it.
(my time here is short or my reply would have been more in-depth)
 
My pastor wrote a pamphlet called "Freedom Through Military Victory" so you can guess my position on pacifism. Everyone has to live their own life though.
 
"The Lord helps those who help themselves".

If I am the first one to say this, I am appalled...and disappointed.

I do want to clarify something about this statement. This statement cannot be found in the Bible, so it cannot be used as a biblical argument for self-defense. I would think the better way to say it is:

The Lord helps those who depend on and trust in Him.
 
'Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul'

To me that tells me God wants me to use my brain, it is why he made man a tool user.

My understanding of the Amish code is not perfect, and whatever it is, they have the right to believe how they wish. It is my understanding that they never see violence as acceptable. Hence, if there were 2 amish men patching up the roof of the school when an axe murderer arrived, it would be against their religion to jump down and smack him with their hammers.

Yet, I believe that God would want me to step in and intervene with whatever tools I had at my disposal when an evil man is in the middle of committing evil acts. Those tools may be a cell phone, a gun, a car, a fire, whatever. He gave me a mind, I plan on following His wishes and using it.
 
The Lord helps those who depend on and trust in Him.
The Lord helps everybody. As the Good Book says, He sends rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

No, I was thinking of Bible stories where Christ hung out with prostitues and tax collectors for the purpose of offering them salvation just like everyone else. The holier-than-thou types of the time were horrified that he would even associate with those people. However, he did not participate in prostitution/sin nor do I think would he participate in the drug culture mentioned above.
Right, so we agree. I think Christ's interaction with the hookers and druggies is best exemplified by the incident with the Samaritan woman at the well.
 
1. It's supposed to be "thou shalt not murder", not "thou shalt not kill".

You know (and not wanting to hijack a thread) this is a truism that is widely publicized and believed but technically it is not true.

The word in the decalogue is "ratsach". This shows up quite a few times in scripture. The most common transalation (KJV) is "slay" but it is used for insatnces of killing in war, accidental killing and even killing by an animal. It's definitely NOT as restricted as the modern understanding of "murder". I DON'T think it is a blanket prohibition against all killing, since that would make no sense given the plenty of killing allowed and even commanded in scripture, but it's not as tidy as homicide only either.
 
I was wondering about the whole non-violent stance, I can see its good in the short term working, such as Black Civil Rights movement with there peace sit ins and such, or gandhi and south africa.

But has there been any long lasting non-violent group ( generally talking about religion here) that has lived through out the centurys in there own land. I cant think of one group that has lived as a whole being non-violent. Does any one know any? Based off that if true i would say that non-voilence does not work over a long time period. Yes the amish(just saying amish as an example) can be non-violent only becuase violent methods are used to protect them (the US Military and cops), or else i belive they would fade away as any non-violent group would.
 
Yep I probably expressed that poorly. I meant to say that the word in question is not limited in scripture to either the normal definition of murder or the legal definition of homicide - but is used in senses broader than both.

My bad.
 
Not to dare...

Religion things. Where to begin...

Not to poke one's beliefs in what's likely to be an already flaming pot, I'll say simply this: Does Christianity not hold true that life is a gift from God? One that absolutely cannot be given OR taken by anyone but Him? And to protect it by any means necessary?

Someone let me know if I'm off base here. THAT BEING SAID, I sure as hell don't stand to criticize another for his faith. If they want to be passive/nonviolent, or whatever, it's up to them. They just need to know that if I'm within earshot of some knucklehead with plans to depopulate the local Amish educational facility, I'm gonna do violence on their behalf.

Period.
 
I'm sorry, dmallind, I should have thanked you for the interesting vocab lesson.

Texas9 said:
Does Christianity not hold true that life is a gift from God? One that absolutely cannot be given OR taken by anyone but Him? And to protect it by any means necessary?
You may need to clarify the question. If you mean that Christianity doesn't permit the taking of human life, then no. There are circumstances where killing is permitted or even commanded. What are you really asking?
 
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