Transporting Primers/Powder when Moving
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RMH
Member
They don't have any authority. That information came from US Department of Transportation regulation and printed in SAAMI documents.
CQB45ACP
Member
True that. Now I get to play Federal Bureaucrat as I did for three decades...
Various laws and Federal government regulatory policy derive from and some cases refer by name to the work of specific Voluntary Consensus-Based Standards Organizations. Underwriters Laboratory is an example.
I’m going out on a limb and saying most Federal regulation starts from such organizations and then becomes required. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Transportation regs at issue here actually began life at SAAMI.
That I knew. But those kind of regs rarely apply to private citizens. Mostly industry.
As it relates to the OP, I couldn't find much related to what private citizen can or can't do. If you cross a state line maybe, if you are in business, definitely. At the end of the day I wouldn't blink an eye.
CQB45ACP
Member
I think you hit the nail mostly on the head, but speaking for myself only, I would still blink an eye when dealing with large quantities of hazmat.
twarr1
Member
This regulation, like the majority of federal regulations, has its origin at the UN.
Specifically, the “United Nations Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods.” The US Department of Transportation, in cooperation with industry, developed the rules to comply with the UN documents. This covers interstate and international transportation. (As a side note, the retirement of the old ORD-D labels was also mandated by the UN)
Additionally, the NFPA created ‘NFPA 495 Explosive Materials Code’ which also aligns with DOT regulations and in turn, the UN mandate. Most, if not all states, and the majority of local jurisdictions, incorporate NFPA 495 by reference. Which means “the law is what NFPA 495 says”.
SAAMI simply quotes and officially supports DOT and NFPA.
Bottom line, DOT Regulations and NFPA 495 IS law, and it DOES apply to private citizens in regards to transporting and storing dangerous goods.
In addition, most (if not all) insurance companies will categorically deny claims involving violation of these rules.
[Excerpt from NFPA 495]
11-5 Small Arms Primers
11-5.1 Small arms primers shall be transported or stored in containers approved by the US Department of Transportation.
11-5.2 Transportation of small arms primers shall comply with US Department of Transportation Regulations.
11-5.3 No more than 25,000 small arms primers may be transported in a private vehicle.
11-5.4 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be stored in residences.
11-5.5 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be displayed in commercial establishments.
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CQB45ACP
Member
Interesting info as to private parties being covered.
Fortunately however, the UN can’t mandate anything. Individual countries must enter into/agree to/sign/ratify whatever type of treaty or other mechanisms before the country has to implement. And for the USA, even then the process just begins.
Various existing US federal statutes (such as the Administrative Procedures Act) govern development of regulations by any US federal agency even if some treaty exists. (And we’re not going to enter into a treaty that hasn’t already been cleared through the agencies and Congress.). So, if any of this came from the UN, it was already agreed to.
If a treaty, the Senate must ratify as provided in the Constitution. But more simply, Congress can simply refuse to authorize/appropriate funds for implementation in whole or in part.
When I relocated to Arkansas during 2018, I chose to move my guns, ammunition, and components myself. I thought that was all just too much of a temptation to risk giving it to someone else.
The guns were disassembled and transported in locked gun cases; two or three at a time (no point looking like a gun runner).
I built four (4) magazines out of 1 inch nominal timber, each capable of carrying six (6) one-pound containers of powder. I used these across several trips to transport powder separately from primers and separately from primed brass and other components.
Worked out very well.
The guns were disassembled and transported in locked gun cases; two or three at a time (no point looking like a gun runner).
I built four (4) magazines out of 1 inch nominal timber, each capable of carrying six (6) one-pound containers of powder. I used these across several trips to transport powder separately from primers and separately from primed brass and other components.
Worked out very well.
CQB45ACP
Member
That’s a good strategy in my view—bite sized pieces.
Soonerpesek
Member
Is a commercial establishment an LGS or Sporting Goods Store…?
If it is, pre covid, my local LGS, Scheel’s, Bass Pro and Cabela’s had s helluva lot more than 10 bricks on display….!
CQB45ACP
Member
That’s true for sure in the good ole days.
twarr1
Member
Next article;
[Excerpt from NFPA 495]
11-5.6 Commercial stocks of small arms primers shall be stored as follows:
(a) Quantities not exceeding 750,000 may be stored in a building if not more than 100,000 are stored in any one pile and piles are at least 15 ft (4.6 m) apart.
Maybe the big stores claim their shelves are “commercial stock”. Idk. My LGS’s keep powders in separate rooms of wood construction.
CQB45ACP
Member
That’s rather frightening actually (and written at a time of plenty obviously).
Just one thing regarding terminology…is a “pile of primers” a specific amount defined by another standards setting organization? Or is it like a gaggle of geese, pod of whales, or clutch of chickens?
twarr1
Member
I’m guessing a “pile” of primers is 100,000. Lol.
NFPA adoption is local authority,
I am going to ask for a citation in how these DOT regulations apply to private citizens.
Thank You.
CQB45ACP
Member
Excellent! But do we actually want to know (in case it’s bad news)?
I have moved many times over the years, almost always with a company paying to pack and ship me. Movers will not move Guns, Ammo or even Alcohol or Matches, if they know about it and if anything happens and you hid that stuff, could void insurance.
I pack it up and drive it myself as pointed out by others. Best to avoid doing anything that will get you pulled over for a traffic violation if at all possible. Especailly when I have moved and had to drive through places like New York City and New Jersey.
Bob
I pack it up and drive it myself as pointed out by others. Best to avoid doing anything that will get you pulled over for a traffic violation if at all possible. Especailly when I have moved and had to drive through places like New York City and New Jersey.
Bob
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Maybe not.
But how often to we really move enough quantity to trigger the regs? If they apply.
twarr1
Member
I may be getting too far off topic, but here’s a link to all US jurisdictions that reference NFPA 495
https://codefinder.nfpa.org/?country=United States of America&nfpanumber=495
https://codefinder.nfpa.org/?country=United States of America&nfpanumber=495
kalielkslayer
Member
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Had to evacuate due to wildfires each of the last 2 years.
Those limits were exceeded.
Best decision I made was not unpacking everything after the 1st evacuation, 2nd one went so much smoother.
Those limits were exceeded.
Best decision I made was not unpacking everything after the 1st evacuation, 2nd one went so much smoother.
CQB45ACP
Member
Even PG&E wouldn’t have caused that big of a fire!
twarr1
Member
In some jurisdictions violation is a misdemeanor.
It’s unnecessarily complicated. Some areas incorporate a code that in turn references another code or regulation. I personally use NFPA 495 because it explicitly aligns with DOT, even though it’s not applicable state wide in Texas. Ymmv.
Im not going to spend hours researching intentionally convoluted regulations. 10k in my home seems a little low, but wth, I have other buildings I can, and do, store primers in.
25,000 in a pov on the other hand, seems like quite a lot, but I wouldn’t hesitate to transport them if I needed to.
Yep Got a ticket in New Mexico once. LEO told me if I would have had my shoes on he might have considered my speeding a little different. True story.
I just pack my powder and primers in totes and continue on with my business. Firearms hitch a ride wrapped in gun socks and blankets...
CQB45ACP
Member
But officer, I can’t wear my shoes I have 25000 primers stored in them.
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