University response to NIU

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snow92686

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Hey guys this was the response to NIU sent out by my university's president...
We are all stunned by the shootings yesterday at Northern Illinois University
west of Chicago. Sadly, it is only the latest in a horrific string of mass
murders in academic settings. While we are shocked, we also find ourselves once
again asking the question, "Are we prepared?"

Let me begin by updating you on some things that have occurred here at "said university" since
the Virginia Tech incident last April.

In January, we conducted the first test of our emergency text messaging system
for students, faculty and staff. The test, performed in conjunction with Mobile
Campus, showed that our text message reached 86 percent of its intended
audience of more than 40,000 people within 50 minutes. The test, believed to be
the largest of its kind to date, helped us identify some glitches and fix them.
We expect the next test, which we expect to conduct this summer, to reach
recipients with roughly 20 minutes. The list of people signed up to receive
text messages now tops 50,000, most of them students.

In the event of a major campus emergency, text messaging would be accompanied
by postings on the "said university" home page that would be updated regularly with the latest
announcements, and e-mails would be sent out at the same time to all students,
faculty and staff advising them of the situation. In addition, we have rolled
out what some refer to as a "reverse 911" system that allows us to send a
recorded message to telephones across campus notifying faculty and staff of any
emergency. We are in the process of gathering information needed to extend that
ability to cell phones, one of the fastest ways to reach students, as many of
you know. All of this would be accompanied by news media alerts.

In addition, the "said university" Police Department in December became the
first university law enforcement agency in the country to accomplish the
"Triple Crown" -- accreditation by the International Association of Campus Law
Enforcement Administrators (IACLEA), the Commission on Accreditation for Law
Enforcement Agencies (CALEA) and the Commission for Florida Law Enforcement
Accreditation (CFA). This recognition speaks to the tremendous professionalism
of "said university"PD and the quality of its officers.

As a reminder, "said university"PD,trains regularly for a variety of possible emergency
situations, including just such a scenario: a gunman on campus. "said university"PD conducts
exercises in conjunction with the "city" Police Department and the "county"
Sheriff's Office and has a thorough and extensive response plan.

As details of the Northern Illinois tragedy are beginning to emerge, some have
suggested that perhaps the days of free and open college campuses should be a
thing of the past.

I couldn't disagree more.

The openness universities enjoy is the very embodiment of academic values. Even
if we could feasibly place gates at campus entrances and send students through
metal detectors, I would argue that building such a police state would serve
only to create an atmosphere of fear and closed thinking.

Instead, we must continue to strike that delicate balance between safety and
openness. I believe we all agree that this is the very bedrock of our society,
one well worth preserving.

For now, please keep in your thoughts and prayers the victims of the NIU
shooting and their friends and families.
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...
The openness universities enjoy is the very embodiment of academic values.
Click to expand...
Like the ability the ccw on campus right... O wait we're not allowed:barf:
 
I actually appreciate his mindset about the openness of the campus. He just needs to take an extra giant leap for mankind. That is, he needs to introduce a system involving students ultimately being responsible for their own safety. This system should of course include means for students to defend themselves realistically in a classroom shooting situation. I feel like I'm going backward in time because this concept is not novel.
 
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"Sir, in the interest of keeping a free and open campus, it is our opinion that allowing qualified, responsible, trained and licensed students and faculty to carry concealed weapons will go a long way in augmenting the capabilities of our security force. In mass shootings, the only ones which have resulted in minimal numbers of casualties are the ones which have been interrupted by force, and we cannot ensure that an armed guard is within seconds of every classroom. Please allow us the means with which to defend ourselves, our students, and our school's reputation."

Now make a few copies with signature lines, and see how big a petition you can get rolling.
 
I do think allowing ccw on campus for those with licenses would likely reduce the number of incidents. If a person is willing to commit sucide or allow themselves to be shot, then it won't stop those folks. These are the crazies in our society. Armed students may minimize the bloodshed but not eliminate it.

I still expect some strengthening of the "mental illness" requirement when purchasing a firearm. It will open doors that should not be opened from my perspective.
 
22 wrote,
I do think allowing ccw on campus for those with licenses would likely reduce the number of incidents. If a person is willing to commit sucide or allow themselves to be shot, then it won't stop those folks. These are the crazies in our society. Armed students may minimize the bloodshed but not eliminate it.
Click to expand...

In many cases, the bloodshed would be completely eliminated. These cowards are targeting "gun free zones". They don't want to do anything with 10 people armed in a 100 person class. A known CCW policy could eliminate the entire school from a crazed shooter's list of targets. Of course, it would be impossible to prove a negative.
 
Armed students may minimize the bloodshed but not eliminate it.

I'd call that a solid start on the problem. Most of the faculty and students at NIU are lock step with Suburban Cook County and (of course) IL is non issue. They can't get their head around the idea of self defense as a concept.
 
Seems to me that mankind learned long ago that when something doesn't work you try something different. Obviously, gun free criminal empowerment zones as established on school property isn't working so why do these people keep trying to roll the square wheel?
 
Well it pains me to think of innocent loss of life. I am a very strong gun supporter as I am lobbying in my country to relax some of the policies regarding rifes (semi and bolts). However, I will never support a policy that allows ccw on campus. I am sorry but we need to come up plan B.
 
Firepower wrote,
Well it pains me to think of innocent loss of life. I am a very strong gun supporter as I am lobbying in my country to relax some of the policies regarding rifes (semi and bolts). However, I will never support a policy that allows ccw on campus. I am sorry but we need to come up plan B.
Click to expand...

By you not providing a Plan B, do you think the current "gun free zone" plan is better than a CCW policy?

This may help you to find a plan B. Imagine you're in a packed classroom of a few hundred students. You're seated somewhere in the middle. As usual, there are only two exits in the rear. A deranged shooter gets up front and commences target practice on you and your classmates. You are not yet hit. It's apparent to you that you won't be getting out of the classroom within the next minute. How would you respond? In an ideal world, how would like to respond? Would you be upset if carrying a handgun to fire back would get you expelled and placed in jail? If so, to whom would you direct your anger?
 
Well it pains me to think of innocent loss of life. I am a very strong gun supporter as I am lobbying in my country to relax some of the policies regarding rifes (semi and bolts). However, I will never support a policy that allows ccw on campus. I am sorry but we need to come up plan B.
Click to expand...
How come? Can you show me where concealed carry permit holders have caused any problems? I fail to see what good it does to disallow the good guys from having their guns while you know full well that the bad guys will never follow the rules.
 
The benefits of CCW permits allowed on campus are pretty good...

Major:

1) Deterrence - criminal (campus theft/rape) or nutjob likely to seek easier target.
2) Rapid armed response if needed.

The cons?

1) VERY small likelihood of negligent discharge. Rules definitely need to be "concealed is concealed," etc...

Any of you guys contacting your school folks yet? Talking to your friends about a grass roots effort doing the same? In a coupla days, can you do a few posters on bulletin boards?

Or should I just shut up about this?
 
To defend those who think ccw on campuses is a bad idea, I can tell you that there are definitely some schools where it might do more harm than good, however, since I have only been to this university I can tell you that it is an open campus, IOW it basically is the city. There are city streets going through campus, there are no boundaries whatsoever, and it is basically set up as part of the city. There are over 50,000 students plus faculty and some lecture halls hold 1000 people. So, in this case, since no boundary is made to keep the campus as its own entity, how can we make it governed seperately (from the city). So this is why I believe ccw should be allowed on my campus... I'm sure there are lots of other good arguements too, but this is my reason for ccw on campus.
 
snow wrote,
To defend those who think ccw on campuses is a bad idea, I can tell you that there are definitely some schools where it might do more harm than good
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We can always come up with "that school" where CCW would be problematic. However, I respectfully submit that such an argument is easy to submit when you're at home comfy in front of your computer and not one of the poor kids (targets) in the shooting range.

Here's an experiment to get a tiny feeling of what it's like to be a target. Go to your local handgun range during less busy hours. Get a room with nobody in it. Shut the door. (Of course, somebody could still come in at any time.) Push a target out to the 15 yard line. Cross the firing line, walk down to the 15 yard line, touch the target and come back. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time even crossing the firing line.
 
I'm not sure just how much these nut jobs are concerned about the "gun free" aspect of their targets. It is a very target rich environment that they know will get a lot of press. I think that is the primary driving force in choosing their target area.

Some of the targets should have the ability to shoot back.
 
Firepower! said:
Well it pains me to think of innocent loss of life. I am a very strong gun supporter as I am lobbying in my country to relax some of the policies regarding rifes (semi and bolts). However, I will never support a policy that allows ccw on campus. I am sorry but we need to come up plan B.
Click to expand...

What would this plan B you speak of entail, and why wouldn't CCW on campuses be a good idea?

I can think of two "plan B" type options, and neither of which work very well. The first would be to have metal detectors at the entrance to every building, search every car that comes onto campus via roads, fence the rest of the campus and patrol the fence to make sure no one gets in other than via an approved entrance point... Of course, this idea is silly. First, it assumes that a college would actually accept that kind of security, and second it assumes that they would pay for it. Oh, and do you think this level of security would be better than that at airports? We all know the TSA consistently fails to find things they should when they are tested... What makes you think security at a college campus would be any better?

The second "plan B" option would be to simply stationed multiple armed security personnel inside every classroom, and inside every common area where a shooting might take place. It would have to be multiple armed guards, because if there were only one a shooter could just take them out first, because it wouldn't be too hard to notice a guy in a security uniform standing around... We also end up with the "do you think the university is going to go for lots of guys with guns everywhere?" and "do you think the university is actually going to pay for that if they do go for it?" problems.

We also have a lot of ineffective yet easy to put in place solutions that don't do a whole lot, except make people who haven't ever thought of what the 'solution' would actually do feel safe.

So now we're back to square 1, which is allowing CCW on campus. What exactly is so bad about CCW on campus? I can't think of anything except NDs.
 
I simply wont accept that there can not be an other solution to this but ccw students. I do like the idea of guns on campus. Arming students is not an answer. Things can get out of hand. Lets not forget drinking on campuses and that average age is quite young. We also must not forget that a ccw student can be a problem as well. I tend to think of university as a place of learning rather than a place where i must go with one in chamber. The idea of ccw might sound good but believe me when it becomes a necesisty its not as great. I can say that from personal experience since i live in a place where its a must. But i remember my time at DU and MSU and I just cant imagine nor would like fellow students to be ccw.

You may no agree with me, but how would feel sending ur son/daughter to a large univ like msu where students are carrying guns and youn people specially who are matured to control anger etc.

But if you want arm US students on campus-then i guess go ahead and lobby for it, however before that survey countries which struggling with armed students on campuses.

Dont mean to offend anyone, so hope didnt say anything to that efferct.
 
However, I respectfully submit that such an argument is easy to submit when you're at home comfy in front of your computer and not one of the poor kids (targets) in the shooting range.
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agreed, thus the rest of my statement. The unfortunate thing is if a state was to change its view and allow ccw on campus, all it would take would be for something bad to happen at "that" school before the media and every other state is all over it... this is one of the unfortunate things of society, one bad apple can ruin the whole bunch. There is no rational solution to a problem dealing with the actions of irrational people.
 
Firepower said:
I simply wont accept that there can not be an other solution to this but ccw students. I do like the idea of guns on campus. Arming students is not an answer. Things can get out of hand. Lets not forget drinking on campuses and that average age is quite young. We also must not forget that a ccw student can be a problem as well. I tend to think of university as a place of learning rather than a place where i must go with one in chamber. The idea of ccw might sound good but believe me when it becomes a necesisty its not as great. I can say that from personal experience since i live in a place where its a must. But i remember my time at DU and MSU and I just cant imagine nor would like fellow students to be ccw.

You may no agree with me, but how would feel sending ur son/daughter to a large univ like msu where students are carrying guns and youn people specially who are matured to control anger etc.

But if you want arm US students on campus-then i guess go ahead and lobby for it, however before that survey countries which struggling with armed students on campuses.

Dont mean to offend anyone, so hope didnt say anything to that efferct.
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You are making the same generalization gun control advocates make. "Some people are incompetent and immature, so everyone is incompetent and immature." If you trust a CCW permit holder to carry a gun in a crowded movie theater, or a crowded public square, what about schools will make them snap? Is alcohol not present outside of schools? Are young people not present outside of schools? What is it about a school that makes it fundamentally different from everywhere else?

Because it's a "place of learning"? I have news for you: LIFE is a "place of learning." And I'd be willing to bet you'll learn a whole lot more from life than you will from any school.

What incidents have the nine Universities in Utah had? Blood on the streets? OK Corral style shootouts over grades or alcohol? Of course not.

If you are not going to "accept" the notion that something like this is a solution, then I have to ask- why?
 
IIRC ccw is legal on campus in Utah, has been for some time although the schools fought it pretty hard. So far no down side.

You are not arming the kids, you are not handing out jennings to every one in line in the cafeteria, you are allowing those that wish to go through the ccw process the right to carry on campus. Two different scenarios.
 
I simply wont accept that there can not be an other solution to this but ccw students. I do like the idea of guns on campus. Arming students is not an answer. Things can get out of hand. Lets not forget drinking on campuses and that average age is quite young. We also must not forget that a ccw student can be a problem as well. I tend to think of university as a place of learning rather than a place where i must go with one in chamber. The idea of ccw might sound good but believe me when it becomes a necesisty its not as great. I can say that from personal experience since i live in a place where its a must. But i remember my time at DU and MSU and I just cant imagine nor would like fellow students to be ccw.
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No one is suggesting that we give out holsters and handguns with the registration packet for the semester. We're talking about allowing the people on campus that have already went to the trouble to do whatever their state requires them to do to carry a gun nearly everywhere else, also be allowed to carry on campus. You're throwing out a lot of "imagine" but not looking at the data that is already there. Its already legal in some states. Show me where things have gotten out of hand as it does in your imagination. We need to base our legislation off of reality, not imagination. The entire premise that these people could carry guns through the rest of their daily routines (including bars in some states!) but suddenly be unsafe just because they've hit campus really just seems half baked.

I tend to think of university as a place of learning rather than a place where i must go with one in chamber.
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Why does the gun bother you so much? Isn't it just smart to acknowledge that because you set foot onto a certain piece of property that you are't magically safe? It doesn't eat on my mind or consume my thoughts. I slip a handgun in my pocket and don't think of it again anymore than I think about the spare tire riding in the trunk of my car. I would like to think a university is a place of learning rather than a place where we have to put phones up every 200 feet because some animals rape helpless women, but that is the reality of the situation.

Once again I would challenge you to support your fears with real world data from the data set that we already have and to provide what you feel like would be a solution. So far I've seen no proof that letting the good guys carry guns, even on campus, is dangerous, and no solution that will make the helpless safe.
 
Firepower, you might not be all that familiar with guns, and the rules and regulations involved.

First, I don't think I know of ANY state that issues CCW permits to folks under 21... Secondly, permits generally are not issued to "problem" people. Odds are, if someone has a permit, they're the kind of responsible person who you want around you.

You are operating from a theoretical viewpoint. In the real world, the first thing that gets tossed out the window is theory, in favor of what actually works.
 
Is that letter supposed to be a joke? A 20 minute timeframe to send out text messages? Yeah, that will work real well :rolleyes:. What good is any cell phone based alert system when kids turn their phones off, or to quiet, in class? And if NIU is anything like every college I've been to, kids probably don't even get good cell reception inside the buildings. Their "triple crown" police was only effective when it came to taping off the crime scene.
 
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