US troops losing hearing

[Floppy_D]

Ohen Cepel, the only problem I had here was the belittling of another's sacrifices, the stench of indignance, and the general disrespect towards veterans... none of which was presented by you. You brought up an important issue, very personal to me, and I thank you for addressing it.

 

[walking arsenal]

I have severe hearing loss over time because of several factors, exposure to loud noise and continuous noise.
The number coming home with bad hearing will be sad, but it makes for another company to come up with a product that will help on both ends of the problem I would think.

Sure hope so. My Grand dad is ex 82nd Airborne, WW 2. Lost his hearing in his right ear because some coward layed down in the door of his jump plane on a night training op. He tripped over him on the way out and his parachute straps clapped his ear drums.

He was 19.

He's never asked for or expected compensation for it either.

Just another one of the

men and women who understood a call and answered.

.

I guess that you were "too smart" to become "a tool for uncle Sam".

Yup, guess so.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=322383

 

[Floppy_D]

My Grand dad is ex 82nd Airborne, WW 2.

Cool, have you told him he's a tool yet?

 

[walking arsenal]

My point is, Ohen Cepel, that most unionized jobs will compensate people for the wear and tear that they earn on the job.

There are plenty of people that do crappy jobs that get 0 compensation for it.

This day in age, people expect to be monetarily compensated for every little nick and scratch that happens to them.

Like a dollar bill makes a good bandage. If they think money is going to cover those scars they are flat out wrong.

Enough said on that. I apologize, its a sore spot with me and it was a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

Yup, the troops need to be taken care of. x2 Yup they need the right gear, especially eyes and ears. We wear them on the range that goes double for a combat zone.

But like at the range there are people who are going to just be too dumb to wear them.

But unlike at the range you tax dollars are going to have to fix their stupid.

Cool, have you told him he's a tool yet?

Don't have too, he's the one who explained to me that a soldier is just another implement in the machine of war.

The guns don't work if there are no fingers to pull the triggers. I think some of you guys are thinking of the wrong kind of tool.

 

[41magsnub]

Walking Arsenal, I'm not sure what to say to the rank idiocy and disrespect you are showing for the military that would be acceptable on this board so I'm not going to. I hope someday you understand. Don't bother with the self righteous snarky reply since nothing you can say going forward carries any weight, you are the first person I've ever put on ignore.

 

[Floppy_D]

Yup, I took it wrong. If you meant no disrespect to the individual sacrifices, then please accept my apology for my crass tone. I interpreted your post as calling servicemembers "tools" for joining.

That aside, you know from your SAR work that some safety equipment can eventually become a nuisance. I'm a fan of eyepro/earpro, but I don't wear either deer hunting. I suspect I'm not alone. So even if these guys were properly trained and equipped, I'm sure they pull the plugs out every now and then, even briefly, for comfort's sake. Even a vigilant crew can get caught with their pants down.

It's a shame that our men and women lose what God gave them... but I've yet to hear one whine over it.

 

[sacp81170a]

We wear them on the range that goes double for a combat zone.

But like at the range there are people who are going to just be too dumb to wear them.

Uh, you don't need to be able to hear from which direction people are shooting at you "on the range". In combat it's a matter of life and death. So much for the inconvenience.

There's also the little matter of being able to communicate without having to yell and give away your position to everyone within a hundred yards among other things that make wearing ear plugs more hazardous than not in a combat zone. Electronic hearing protection would be the ticket, but none seems to be being issued to the troops just yet AFAIK.

 

[walking arsenal]

Thanks Floppy.

I completely agree.

When was in the USAF AUX we had guys ditch theirs all the time on the flight line because they were too hot.

And that was around jet engines. Go fig.

You are the first person I've ever put on ignore.

Your the first person who has ever called me "Snarky". No loss on my end.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Surely we can afford "electronic" hearing enhancers/protection for our troops. Or, maybe not... Sorry, I came from the Army during Carter & then Reagan came in. We went from OD green to camo, C-Rats to MRE's & M60A3's to M1's. Ahhh...

I'm talkin' about the plugs that enhance sound but then limit @ a certain DB. It's gotta be a $$$ issue.

No, the issue is who is going to get the $$$.

The Sportsmans Guide catalog can sell you a pair of noise-cancelling ear muffs with an NRC of 25 (or 27?), amplification of normal sound, and an 85 dB cut-off, for the princely sum of $19.95 (plus shipping). If Gary Olen can SELL them for 20 bucks, how much do you think the DoD would have to pay for them in quantities of thousands per order? My guess -- not much.

Do they work? Yeah, actually they do. Silencio or one of the other "brand names" might be marginally better, but the NRC on the SGC $20 muffs is better than that of some other muffs I have that don't do anything except muffle. Worn with foam plugs underneath, the noise reduction shooting at an indoor range is phenomenal.

And, yeah -- I'm in sympathy with the grunts. I'm a Vietnam veteran, and I hear a constant ringing in both ears as I sit here typing this. It's one thing to volunteer knowing you run a risk of being wounded or killed. You can sort of graps that concept and come to terms with it. I don't know about anyone else, but when I enlisted back in the late 60's, I was willing to risk being killed, I hoped like hell I wouldn't be crippled, but I never EVER considered that I might spend the rest of my life with an annoying, high-pitched whine inside my head, or have to live with a couple of other problems that came home with me and which the gummint declined to acknowledge.

 

[Evocatii]

I lost some of my hearing and developed tinnitus due to the Iraq war. I can't say I like it, but I accept the fact as part of the sacrifice. The upside, rifle hunting no longer causes me ear pain. I do wear hearing protection when shooting my magnums at the range. I do try to save what is left of my hearing. My wife already has a hard time dealing with my hearing problem.

Average conversation between my wife and myself:

Wife: "Can you turn it down?"
Me: "What?"

 

[sacp81170a]

No, the issue is who is going to get the $$$.

It's an issue, but there are lots of other issues as well. Ear muffs do not fit well under helmets or NBC gear. They would make using much of the communications equipment in the inventory difficult. The type of hearing protection I think would work best would be some kind of electronic plugs. They'd have to be ruggedized for military use. They shouldn't be too expensive, but they'll almost certainly cost more than $19.95.

When was in the USAF AUX we had guys ditch theirs all the time on the flight line because they were too hot.

Omigosh, did you tell those guys they were "tools" as well? Good thing nobody was actually trying to kill you or you would've ditched your ear plugs too.

 

[BridgeWalker]

Walking Arsenal, I'm not sure what to say to the rank idiocy and disrespect you are showing for the military that would be acceptable on this board so I'm not going to. I hope someday you understand. Don't bother with the self righteous snarky reply since nothing you can say going forward carries any weight, you are the first person I've ever put on ignore.

This. I'm too angry to craft my own reply.

ETA: No. I'm not.

Your grandfather earned the right to speak about the service in that way. You haven't. I haven't. Having disqualifying medical conditions sucks. I know all about it.

A man has a right to see himself as a tool, even his fellow servicemen as tools. If you don't serve, you don't get to talk like that. Someone who gives up his hearing for this country does not deserved to be called a whiner by someone who has never spent a day in uniform, and I don't care that you're willing to do so. Grandpa's service does not give you the right to speak with disrespect.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Walking Arsenal: Your post on "whining" is the most stupid drivel I've ever had the mispleasure to read on this board.

USAF AUX? Combat hearing conservation & veterans benefit advice from CAP...no thanks

 

[RP88]

Even if they did whine, they'd have a justification to do so. Getting shot at, getting your leg blown off, etc. etc. is something that complaining would be justified for. What was the last thing -you- complained about? Had a bad day at work? Aw, you poor bastard...

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Knee Jerks

I'm seeing some knee jerks.

Some of you need to [post=3972175]read this post[/post].

And then the middle of [post=4271462]this one[/post].

A man says something crass, then he apologizes. It happens that there is context beyond the current discussion.

He is of the opinion that soldiers are "tools" of war.

As it happens, that's a particularly apt description of what a soldier is. Volunteer or not, the orders he follows are given by people whose bread is buttered by politics. He may "answer the call" but when he stands on the battlefield and faces the enemy, follows his sergeant's orders, and places himself in harm's way, he has become part of a machine. And if the battle plan is well conceived and the tactics are well executed and the machine -- and all its parts -- functions as designed, the battle is won.

This isn't a new concept.

It takes character to volunteer to sacrifice one's individuality to the greater cause, to knowingly set aside the "self" and become the machine, and the transition from person to machine and back again can be a form of trauma all its own.

Still, the soldier -- even possessed of reason and rationality -- must even so be a tool of war when the time comes.

Now, given that this doesn't directly address the matter at hand -- the reality of disability resulting from this service -- it qualifies simply as an observation.

The value judgement -- that these soldiers should accept their injuries as part of the price -- that's somewhat harder to swallow.

While I may disagree with that conclusion, I won't be calling him names about it.

Keep it civil, and leave the personal attacks out of it.

The topic is marginal to begin with, but does relate to safety and precautions for hearing loss from shooting.

Anybody have a bright idea for how to protect hearing while preserving the ability to hear well enough for directional perception? While weighing pretty much nothing? And not interfering with other gear?

That would be seriously useful.

For soldiers, hunters, home defense, and all that.

 

[jrfoxx]

However, it's very hard to wear hearing protection all the time.

I think that's the biggest problem here.If they wear hearig protection, even electronic ones that only "kick in" when the gun is fired, they wont be able to hear what is going on, or orders/instructions/cries for help, etc. once the shooting starts, which I imagine isa REAL imprtant time you'd need to hearinstructions, orders, etc.So those wouldnt really be better than just regular plugs/muffs, as you dont need them when your not shooting, and once the shooting starts, they will kick in (and stay that way as long as smeone nearby is shooting,).you may not end up with hearing damage, but you or someone else might end up dead because someone couldnt hear enough.I'm sure its already hard enough to hear over just the gunfire, but now add in plugs/muffs too, and it bcomes even worse.
Only solution I can see, is electronic plugs (someone already mentioned that muffs dont work well with helmets,NBC gear, etc so those are pretty much out), that also incorporate a comm. system with headsets or such, so those operating together are all able to communicate with each other, while the plugs deaden the gunfire.And it seems like there lots of potential issues with that still.
The person who invents a good, safe, sturdy,reliable solution to let soldiers still be able hear what they need to hear, and block out the gunfire, explosions, etc at the same time, will be a hero to the military, on top of becoming very rich, thats for sure....
And the good news is, because of those 2 things, I guarantee there are people working on the problem as we speak.

 

[jlbraun]

Now is a good time to get behind any effort to make suppressors Title I...

 

[Floppy_D]

Something to consider, as sm points out occasionally, is that you can't "stay up" at all times. If your mentality is 100% alert constantly, you're going to be exhausted shortly. Convoys can run for days, and the only appointment disaster has to keep is "the worst possible moment".

So, +1 for cans.

 

[MD_Willington]

Slow news day..

In other news, unless it is obstructed, or it is night time the sky is Blue...

Love this quote too:

"Given today's fearsome weaponry, even the best hearing protection is only partly effective — and only if it's properly used."

LOL.. yeah every new generation of weapons gets louder...

 

[Pat-inCO]

While I'm sorry the troops are ending up with hearing problems, it's a case of well DUH! Every military person that has been in fire-fight in the last one hundred years (and probably before that) has experienced some hearing loss. Unfortunate, but a fact of war.

Perhaps now, with all of the bleeding heart liberals in congress, we can get additional development of hearing protection that will at least lessen the problem. The technology exists, but is far too expensive for most of us. :banghead:

Imagine something that looks like an in-the-ear hearing aid that allows you to hear normally, until the bang. it then functions like the Peltor Tac-7s. Those "hearing aid types" do exist now. The problem is they are about $800 per pair. With the war, the cost could be reduced to $200 per pair. I'll buy a pair for $200.

 

[walking arsenal]

Don't suppressors need subsonic ammo to function or are there hyper sonic capable suppressors now?

Living in a state were they are illegal I don't keep up with that much.

 

[Harley Quinn]

However, it's very hard to wear hearing protection all the time.

My son was in the Artillery for 4 years and he has great hearing (mine is bad) he has inherited his Moms hearing. He said that he was always ribbed by others for being so diligent with wearing hearing protectors. All the time without fail it was an obsession with him, mentions how lax most are with that effort to protect the hearing and the Sgts are just as bad if not worse. I think it has gotten better, but it has along way to go it appears.

When he made Sgt he was always telling his men to wear the protection, irritated a few for sure. But he said it was a total commitment 24/7. Paid off for him, great hearing and he is in his 40's...

HQ

 

[Chindo18Z]

Tools of a tool:

I wore these Peltors last trip to Iraq:

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

They fit under my ACH with no problem:

[/IMG]

They simultaneously protect my hearing and allow discrete comms with this:



I wear these North Sonic IIs under the Peltor muffs for additional noise reduction(about $9.00 at Cabelas):

[/IMG]

I've suffered high frequency hearing loss over the years (age, aircraft, weapons firing, explosions, rock music, nagging) and always wear these plugs under shooting earmuffs at any range. They've been around since at least the early 1980s. I bought my first pair 1982 and still use them today. Sonic IIs are also available with custom fit ear plug bodies to go over the flutter valve (which looks like a small cylindrical silver battery). When you need something unobtrusive which allows normal hearing but protects against shockwave decibels (e.g., gunshot report), these plugs are pretty damn useful to anyone who shoots or is around loud music.

As the OP's originally referenced article pointed out, every single American servicemember sent overseas is fitted for and issued a newer model of earplug. I can't recall seeing anyone outside the wire who didn't use them or some substitute (like mine). Most Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Coasties, and Airmen are not stuck on stupid. They can anticipate the pain of IED ruptured eardrums; they kit themselves out accordingly.

Even in the States, troops have been issued these (or the newer versions) for years and are generally required to have secured to their blouse or LBV for all training:

[/IMG]

The military (as an organization) views its "tools" as a significant investment and spends an absolutely extraordinary amount of money (compared to any other force on earth) in order to protect our sons & daughters. This includes their hearing. Soldiers cost ungodly amounts of money to train, equip, and employ. Deaf Soldiers are less useful. Protecting their hearing is a combination of altruism AND hard economic reality.

We are issued hearing protection, train with it, enforce its use, and screen servicemembers with required annual hearing exams. The digital results are part of a medical database used to monitor every single Servicemember over the course of their career (long or short) and detect trends/solutions for the force as a whole. Additionally, everyones' hearing is tested both before and immediately after each combat deployment (further tracking baseline hearing loss data).

The days of sticking something handy in your ear are long gone...as they should be. I used to gun mortars with a cigg butt or foam plug in one ear and a finger in the other (in order to be able hear the Fire Direction Computer's shouted commands) .

Does everything work all the time? Of course not. Life is dangerous and (ultimately) nobody gets out alive.

Some folks are idiots and simply fail to utilize protective measures already provided. "Ooooh...my body armor plates are tooo heavy". "Ooooh, my earplugs are uncomfortable and I can't hear my IPOD...". Darwinism at work...deaf or dead.

Should American taxpayers foot the bill for deteriorated health (including hearing loss) after a lifetime of service or service connected wounds? Damn straight. (BTW: All Servicemembers pay taxes and social health care entitlements). Those who complain about the cost are doing so on an internet, powered by abundant and reliable electricity, from the safety of their home or office, in front of maintained streets, leading to stocked supermarket shelves, with an audiologist just an appointment phone call away.

Every bit of that secure existence is bought and paid for in perpetuity by the blood of military members. It always has been. If you and I have to pay for my hearing loss when I retire...tough...that's the social contract. Otherwise we can all just flip the lights permanently off and begin eating our neighbors while waiting for the next wave of barbarians to surge through the gates. Think it can't happen here? Guess again. Get out and see the rest of the world. You'd be shocked at how cheap human existence is held across most of Planet Earth.

BTW: The Peltors I'm issued are pretty spendy and I wish to thank both myself and Walking Arsenal for our tax contributions to my auditory health.

Enough said on that. I apologize, its a sore spot with me, and it was a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

 

[hso]

C18Z,

No need to apologize. You hit it square on the head. Hearing loss has been the most expensive disability to the military for a long time because of the large number of servicmembers that suffer from it. Extensive research on hearing protection is funded by the military to reduce the threat of hearing damage to it's personnel to make those troops both more effective in the field and to reduce disability payments paid for permanent hearing loss.

********************************************

active noise canceling technology

Doesn't work for gunfire or explosions or other "impact" noise. It does work on machine noise that would be encountered in aircraft, ships, tanks/vehicles and in industrial settings where the noise spectrum is constant.

*******************************************

The non-union 40,000 employee company I work for requires the use of hearing protection when noise levels exceed 90 dBA and provides it free of charge to employees. The non-union indoor range with less than a dozen employees I go to requires their employees to use hearing protection whenever they're going onto the range (even for just a second). Responsible adults protect their hearing, but OSHA requires the employer to evaluate noise levels and provide hearing protection for employees exposed to noise levels above 90 dBA for more than 8 hrs a day. OSHA does not cover military, or other government, "employees".

*******************************************

I use Surefire EP4 plugs under electronic muffs. I was skeptical of the claims of variable noise blockage until I put them in. I sure believe it now. Add my Peltors on top of them and I can carry on a normal conversation until the gunfire starts.

 

[rcmodel]

A great many of us had damage dating back to 1965 and beyond.

+1 on that!
I have had ringing ears since training to use 106mm recoilless rifles & 4.2" morters in AIT in 1964!

Was told at an Army Physical in 1966 that my hearing was so bad I couldn't join the Army if I wasn't already in it!

We never heard of GI issue ear plugs, and the Range NCO's would have kicked our butts if we had tried to bring our own!

I've came off a heavy weapons range more then once with my ears bleeding!

I was still using .38 Special ammo or cigarette butts for ear plugs when I shot on the Ft. Carson pistol team in 1967!

Finally was issued real rubber GI ear-plugs and AO ear-muffs when I went to 5th. Army AMTU Rifle & Pistol team in 68.

And no, I've never drawn a dime of disability!

rcmodel