MicroBalrog
member
Deadman - actually, studies have proven 1st person shooters improve IQ test results. I am not kidding.
Using Video Games For Self-Defense?
- Thread starter Zan
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RED-DOG 40
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These games are great for youngins. But IMO there is a fantasy factor here. Sorta goes with some ASE certified mechanics and "2nd Louies" I have met . Most turn out to be "Book Smart" and run around with puffed out chests, then being more of a danger to themselves than others. Hands on,in the element is ,(IMHO), the best training. True experience does not season a person through television and/or books.
BerettaNut92
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It does help you get the names of guns wrong though. You picked up a Klobb!
Zach S
Member
Theres a fine line between ballsy and stupid.
When playing a FPS I dont do anything ballsy, I go straight to stupid, take risks that I shouldn't, whats the worse thats gonna happen, get a game over? Well, gee, I can hit hit X and start back up at a checkpoint...
With Metal Gear Solid 1 & 2, 007, MOH:Frontline (I think?) and Headhunter I "Ramboed" everything, never used cover and concealment, and did quite well. I remember in one of the training missions for Headhunter I couldnt use cover and concealment. I'd duck behind something to aviod enemy fire and have a grenade land beside me, took me all night to get through that one, so what did I do? Simple, I walked from side to side, never using any cover, and blasted away while taking hits from the enemy troops. I broke all of Hank's records (in combat training) by being a Rambo. The only time I used stealth movements was in one training mission where it was required, and in one of the missions (where I had to get out of the biker gang's headquarters, which was occupied by police or something, and maybe another one).
Splinter Cell took some getting used to. Thats my game at the moment. I do see my self using cover and concealment more in future FPS games since the rambo tactics dont work so well on this one, and I'm actually thinking before I move, conserving ammo, doing tac reloads, and distracting gaurds so I can seak past, rather than just taking them out.
Up next is Rainbow Six 3. This could get interesting...
Like IGB said, theyre just games to me. Sure, I'll apply real-life tactics to them, and if need be, I may be able to use some of the tactics picked up from the game, but a training aid? Dont think so. Just because someone can lay the smack down at Laguna Seca on Gran Turismo 3 doesnt mean they know how to push a car to the limit.
When playing a FPS I dont do anything ballsy, I go straight to stupid, take risks that I shouldn't, whats the worse thats gonna happen, get a game over? Well, gee, I can hit hit X and start back up at a checkpoint...
With Metal Gear Solid 1 & 2, 007, MOH:Frontline (I think?) and Headhunter I "Ramboed" everything, never used cover and concealment, and did quite well. I remember in one of the training missions for Headhunter I couldnt use cover and concealment. I'd duck behind something to aviod enemy fire and have a grenade land beside me, took me all night to get through that one, so what did I do? Simple, I walked from side to side, never using any cover, and blasted away while taking hits from the enemy troops. I broke all of Hank's records (in combat training) by being a Rambo. The only time I used stealth movements was in one training mission where it was required, and in one of the missions (where I had to get out of the biker gang's headquarters, which was occupied by police or something, and maybe another one).
Splinter Cell took some getting used to. Thats my game at the moment. I do see my self using cover and concealment more in future FPS games since the rambo tactics dont work so well on this one, and I'm actually thinking before I move, conserving ammo, doing tac reloads, and distracting gaurds so I can seak past, rather than just taking them out.
Up next is Rainbow Six 3. This could get interesting...
Like IGB said, theyre just games to me. Sure, I'll apply real-life tactics to them, and if need be, I may be able to use some of the tactics picked up from the game, but a training aid? Dont think so. Just because someone can lay the smack down at Laguna Seca on Gran Turismo 3 doesnt mean they know how to push a car to the limit.
I stopped looking for realism in videogames long ago; I now take them as works of literature/film and judge them (and justify them) like that. So I don't like many FPS (I hate HALO, red faction, half-life the least) since they are so shallow
Metal gear solid 2, (bloody brilliant game) extreme difficuly, radar off, no special items used, and I have cut my save stat to <20. So close to big boss
Metal gear solid 2, (bloody brilliant game) extreme difficuly, radar off, no special items used, and I have cut my save stat to <20. So close to big boss
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Zach S
Member
Play Time: 3:14:56
Time Watching Cut-Scenes: 6:21:43
The closer I got to the end of the game, the more I felt like I was watching a movie.
You're a lot better at it than I am...
Time Watching Cut-Scenes: 6:21:43
The closer I got to the end of the game, the more I felt like I was watching a movie.
You're a lot better at it than I am...
MN_Strelok
Member
I think very little carries over between an FPS and real self-defense. Some games are definitely better than others, though. Operation Flashpoint, for example, doesn't have many of the realism gaps described here: iron sights are needed, shaky point of aim, you can look around independently of your weapon, limited movement speed, no (reasonable) firing while running, no jumping, etc. Despite the relative accuracy of OFP, however, the best lessons I've learned while playing it still have less to do with shooting and more to do with situational awareness and communication.
In short: Using the sights on a pistol in OFP doesn't do anything for my technique or muscle memory, but things like constantly swiveling my head do leak into the real world.
In short: Using the sights on a pistol in OFP doesn't do anything for my technique or muscle memory, but things like constantly swiveling my head do leak into the real world.
Deadman
Member
Micro could you elaborate on that statement? It would be interesting to know how that works out.
BHPshooter
Member
I'm stuck in the area with the gravity lift, where wave upon wave of Covenant troops keep beaming down. I can hold off 3, sometimes 4 waves, but eventually I always die. What I've done so far is to move one of those turrets closer to the pad -- when a new wave comes, I take the sniper rifle and eliminate the Elite. Then, when the grunts and shield-dudes come running, I hose 'em down with the turret. Unfortunately, the waves start coming faster, and... I just don't know what to do about it.
It would probably make it a lot easier to have a rocket launcher aimed at the pad with one shot for every group
but AFAIK there are none in that level.Anyway, back on topic -- It is certainly unquestionable that the only way to learn to shoot well is to shoot often. I don't think anyone's contesting that. However, there MUST be something to be learned from video games, even if it is simple reasoning.
So the question is, what CAN we get out of video games? Just entertainment? Or maybe something else?
Wes
Lagadelphia
Member
I think that some FPS can teach you principles but as said before, you need to actually do rather than just learn.
I think Delta Force by Novalogic was a fairly good one. You had massive outdoor maps with varied terrains. You had shots out to 1500m plus. You had to compensate for bullet drop which was diferent for each gun/caliber but there was no windage. You also had to lead targets. It wasn't just put your crosshairs on them and shoot no matter what the range was. The further away, the more you had to lead them. You also had to compensate for the angle that they were running. After you got good at the game, you could do those calculations in your head because you knew how long it would take for the round to get to the desired range and how fast people were moving.
That being said, there was still no recoil. You were running around with a M-82 Barret 50 cal with 7 loaded 10 round mags plus hand grenades, knife, and sidearm with no regards to stamina.
Still, if you were to hand a rifle to someone who played that game a lot but had never shot a gun for real, hand a rifle to someone who hadn't played the game nor fired a gun for real, I think the gamer would pick up hitting targets at a distance and moving targets much faster. Because, while not the same, the principles learned from the game are applicable to doing it for real.
I think Delta Force by Novalogic was a fairly good one. You had massive outdoor maps with varied terrains. You had shots out to 1500m plus. You had to compensate for bullet drop which was diferent for each gun/caliber but there was no windage. You also had to lead targets. It wasn't just put your crosshairs on them and shoot no matter what the range was. The further away, the more you had to lead them. You also had to compensate for the angle that they were running. After you got good at the game, you could do those calculations in your head because you knew how long it would take for the round to get to the desired range and how fast people were moving.
That being said, there was still no recoil. You were running around with a M-82 Barret 50 cal with 7 loaded 10 round mags plus hand grenades, knife, and sidearm with no regards to stamina.
Still, if you were to hand a rifle to someone who played that game a lot but had never shot a gun for real, hand a rifle to someone who hadn't played the game nor fired a gun for real, I think the gamer would pick up hitting targets at a distance and moving targets much faster. Because, while not the same, the principles learned from the game are applicable to doing it for real.
DougCxx
Member
- - - I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that playing something like Counterstrike would teach very good team communication skills for that type of situation--assuming that in any "real-life" stuation, the same types of communication were facilitated (headset radios with each team on a common channel). The key to doing well in Counterstrike is to act as a team, and be able to quickly and usefully describe to your teammates where you are going and what is happening to you. People cannot automatically do that well at all.
(....For those who don't know, in Counter-Strike, there are two teams of shooters: "soldiers" and "terrorists", and (if you are alive) you can talk and be heard by everyone on your team--but the other team can't hear you. The better teams constantly chatter their positions and report what they are seeing to everyone else. Ideally you wear a headset with a mic to play, because it's the fastest/easiest way to do so)
- Counterstrike is set up a very paticular way however; the weapons are kept simple, the ranges short and the maps are fairly simple--there aren't many vast sprawling maze-complexes. There are only a few different paths to take, with some objects spread around to hide behind--virtually guaranteeing that just wandering around for sixty seconds, you wil run into someone else, probably an opposing team member. A common layout for a play map is a "figure eight", with two "island" buildings set into a rectangular area, and some other boxes scattered around. And the only object of the game is to be left standing, so evading the other team doesn't really accomplish much.
---------------
- Single-player games however are different, and I would guess not nearly as valuable. Most all are set up to be "scripted" (the layout of enemies is exactly the same, each time you play the game) and you can learn where this bad guy is looking at the beginning, and where that bad guy is standing, or what you do that makes them turn and attack you. You can basically remember the way the game is initiated and use that to your advantage in that game, but knowing it won't help you anywhere else.
~
(....For those who don't know, in Counter-Strike, there are two teams of shooters: "soldiers" and "terrorists", and (if you are alive) you can talk and be heard by everyone on your team--but the other team can't hear you. The better teams constantly chatter their positions and report what they are seeing to everyone else. Ideally you wear a headset with a mic to play, because it's the fastest/easiest way to do so)
- Counterstrike is set up a very paticular way however; the weapons are kept simple, the ranges short and the maps are fairly simple--there aren't many vast sprawling maze-complexes. There are only a few different paths to take, with some objects spread around to hide behind--virtually guaranteeing that just wandering around for sixty seconds, you wil run into someone else, probably an opposing team member. A common layout for a play map is a "figure eight", with two "island" buildings set into a rectangular area, and some other boxes scattered around. And the only object of the game is to be left standing, so evading the other team doesn't really accomplish much.
---------------
- Single-player games however are different, and I would guess not nearly as valuable. Most all are set up to be "scripted" (the layout of enemies is exactly the same, each time you play the game) and you can learn where this bad guy is looking at the beginning, and where that bad guy is standing, or what you do that makes them turn and attack you. You can basically remember the way the game is initiated and use that to your advantage in that game, but knowing it won't help you anywhere else.
~
Mark Tyson
Member
I wonder if the VPC will advocate the banning of first person shooters as "mililtary-style combat simulators" favored by criminals.
Zach S
Member
Dont give them any ideas Mark.
On second thought, I do recall an article that said some people tried to get GTA 3 banned...
On second thought, I do recall an article that said some people tried to get GTA 3 banned...
Penforhire
Member
Fumegator, I mostly hide behind the rock just before you can see the lift and make hit-and-run forays. I know what you mean, it seems to last forever. If I'm really "on my game" I actually have about 4 Marines still with me when I reach that rock (now THAT's hard to do on Legendary). I also go all the way back to the sniper ammo location to pick up more grenades and sometimes more Covenant weapons.
If you haven't picked it up, there's an invisibility cube in the big area prior to the lift area.
You absolutely must finish that whole level with good health and weapons 'cause you're beamed into a really bad situation with what you've got on you.
If you haven't picked it up, there's an invisibility cube in the big area prior to the lift area.
You absolutely must finish that whole level with good health and weapons 'cause you're beamed into a really bad situation with what you've got on you.
WonderNine
member
I always knew all those hours wasted playing video games would account for something.
I read a story awhile back, I don't know if anybody has quoted it yet as I haven't read the thread, but anyways the Army had claimed that people who play or grow up playing video games respond to visual stimulation more quickly. Ever heard of the game "America's Army"? Developed by the Army. I tried it, it's not a very good game IMO, but I was able to make Spec Forc and that's not easy to do.
BerettaNut92
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You know what sucks about MOHAA? THe bad guys can spot you through trees. So much for tactics
Stupid snow levels. And I'm trying to get through that stupid game without quicksaving
Stupid snow levels. And I'm trying to get through that stupid game without quicksaving
Mulliga
Member
I've played most FPS games people have mentioned (including lots of CS), but I think the only thing that could even have the remotest possibility of improving your shooting skills are light gun games like "Time Crisis" or "Police 911" (the one with the motion sensors).
FPS games are insanely unrealistic. I've never played a single game that modeled SA pistols correctly.
FPS games are insanely unrealistic. I've never played a single game that modeled SA pistols correctly
.
Zundfolge
Member
Ahem ... Infiltration ... see link I posted earlier
DougCxx
Member
- Tell the CIA guys who flew the armed Predator planes that videogames are useless.
-well yea that wasn't quite the same thing, but anyway.
~
-well yea that wasn't quite the same thing, but anyway.
~
I love games, but...
There are some benefits, but I've also seen more unrealistic expectations as a result of playing FPS's. ("But in Counter Strike, the Desert Eagle is the best gun to have, because it kills more effectively").
Even if I learned everything I possibly could from CS, MOH, or other FPS's, I still would have no idea about the REAL world.
Video games open one's eyes to the NEED for tactics and teamwork, but it shouldn't be confused for actual training in tactics and teamwork.
There are some benefits, but I've also seen more unrealistic expectations as a result of playing FPS's. ("But in Counter Strike, the Desert Eagle is the best gun to have, because it kills more effectively").
Even if I learned everything I possibly could from CS, MOH, or other FPS's, I still would have no idea about the REAL world.
Video games open one's eyes to the NEED for tactics and teamwork, but it shouldn't be confused for actual training in tactics and teamwork.
Wes, all I can say is shoot and move like crazy. I try to use a needle gun on them when they first hit the pad, because when they blow up hopefully you can set some grenades off as well. If you need to run all the way back to the entrance and they will have to funnel down to get you. Don't use the turrets, they will flank you way to fast.
The next part is much harder.
The next part is much harder.
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