What do you do if you're involved in a shooting?

[DFW1911]

I'm with the attorney crowd on this. BTW, the time to decide who your attorney is should be prior to any event, not during it. If you don't have an attorney on retainer you may want to consider doing it.

It's also a good idea to have his / her number in your cell phone: hopefully a number you'll never have to dial.

Take care,
DFW1911

 

[online2mch]

Recent Shoreline, Washington police shooting

A man with a long arrest and conviction record knocked on a woman's door at about 11am, she looked out the window didn't know him so didn't answer. Then he went around back so she called the police. They arrived as he was getting into his car and ended up shooting him, Why is still sketchy but he may have threatened to run them over. I was very interested in reading in the news about it that the officers are not "required" to give a statement until after the investigation is complete. I guess my wandering point is that If an armed citizen decides not to give a statement at the scene, the officers should not be suprised.

 

[strambo]

Well, saying literally nothing sounds good and all, but isn't always practical. If you call 911, (you are calling 911 right?) you have to say something. Are you just gonna breathe heavy? Say the minimum to the operator to get the police and ambulance enroute and let them know the situation. When the cops get there repeat what you said to 911, it ain't no secret.

"I'm at_____location and I was attacked and in fear for my life. I protected myself, send police and an ambulance."

Now, the arriving officers know what to expect and the situation. The last thing I want is an officer/investigtor to get the wrong impression because I said nothing at all and look at the evidence through that "lens". Citizen self defense shootings are rare, when they go to shootings it is usually criminal, same as fights (both parties wrong).

I know cops are told not to say anything...this is a double standard though. They will expect you, the citizen to say something, getting to the bottom of things is their job. Furthermore, an on-duty cop will have the presumption that he was justified at the get go. They could think you murdered the guy, they don't know you.

If you aren't the one calling 911, then you have a choice in saying literally nothing or a one sentence "I was in fear for my life..." type statement. I'd hope saying literally nothing wouldn't look bad or cause undue problems, in legal theory it shouldn't but reality can be different. Saying nothing at all is better than running your mouth though....to err on the 'nothing" side is definitely better so I understand the sentiment.

 

[earthworm]

To paraphrase Massad Ayoob

1.Call 911 saying something like "There is a person hurt at....;please send an
ambulance & the police.I am (name) & look like (describe self).
2.When the police arrive DO NOT have weapon in hand.Expect to be proned-out & cuffedO NOT resist or protest.
3.State something along the lines of "That person (point) attacked me with that weapon(point):I will press charges.Those people (point) saw what happened.I was in fear of my life & defended myself.Sir,we both know this is a very serious situation & I will be happy to cooperate fully & make a complete statement within 24 hours & after I have spoken with counsel."
4.SHUT UP!
5.Call attorney.

Yo Mas!-Did I recall it right?

 

[pete f]

call 911, there was a shooting at xxxmaple street, please send medical and police right away.


call Dewey Cheatem and Howe, I need to talk with Mr Cheatem immediately You do have your atty phone # or a good Pro gun criminal defense Lawyer in your phone right?

When the police show up, "He was going to kill me, officer,"

"I would prefer to answer any questions after my attorney shows up"

 

[Fred Fuller]

Read

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/25Feb06.html

and

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

to start with.

lpl/nc

 

[thexrayboy]

The general idea of say as little as necessary and get adequate representation are best. If you refuse to answer any questions at all could be construed as obstructing and will not help you. Answering simple questions such as your name etc. and other pertinent facts that are not going to be disputed are one thing. Answering a lot of questions of a subjective nature such as what happened ,why you were where you were etc are best left to the statement made in the presence of an attorney.

Be honest. Tell the police that you are happy to answer factual questions that are easily verified for them but that questions of a subjective nature will need to wait till you have an attorney present. Most LEO are regular guys. However you can't just assume that they will do right by you. It's your future at stake. If they are regular guys trying to do a good job they will understand and let you call your lawyer. If they start pushing you and playing the mind games such as telling you that you would only need a lawyer if you were guilty of something you should assume they have an agenda and it's not a good one for you. Be respectful but be firm. You have rights. Remind them of that. The same rights they have.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Four words...

Shut the hell up... that's what I'd do.

I had the privelage of having 2 attorneys in my CCW class - made for a lot of fun when this topic came up but it was also very informative.

...officers are not "required" to give a statement until after the investigation is complete. I guess my wandering point is that If an armed citizen decides not to give a statement at the scene, the officers should not be suprised.

That's right. In fact, they'd probably know that they were dealing with someone who was intelligent, and I don't think they'd see it negatively as long as you weren't backwards with them about it. They know what can happen if you say the wrong thing - which would be very easy to do after something as high-stress as shooting someone in self defense.

My uncle - retired detective - has a nice little saying... Maybe it's a saying other LEO's are familiar with.

"The dumbest SOB in the world is the one who can't wait to tell you everything."

Answering simple questions such as your name etc. and other pertinent facts that are not going to be disputed are one thing. Answering a lot of questions of a subjective nature such as what happened ,why you were where you were etc are best left to the statement made in the presence of an attorney.

Be honest. Tell the police that you are happy to answer factual questions that are easily verified for them but that questions of a subjective nature will need to wait till you have an attorney present.

ANY statememt you make should only be given after you talk to your attorney, IMHO. Here's the problem with the above quote.

You're involved in a shooting.
You call 911, give basic info, ask for cops and an ambulance.
Officers show, you start giving over 'pertinent info.'

"Officer, I was in fear of my life. That guy said he was going to kill me and reached for a gun, so I fired 2 or 3 shots to stop the threat."

Nothing sounds wrong with that, right?

That is, until they find TEN casings on the ground from your weapon instead of the two or three you claimed to have fired. Now you've got a little problem.

Think that can't happen? Look up how adrenaline can affect the memory. You will not be in a state of mind "to answer factual questions that are easily verified" after a shooting. Tell them you think you're sick, and get in that ambulance you called and go to the ER - and stay there until you've talked to your attorney.

Oh, you thought I called that ambulance for the POS I just shot?

There are a few LEO's who have already chimed in and said what they would do... and all of them - without exception - said they would shut up until their representation arrived. I think there's a reason or two that they feel that's the best course of action.

 

[evan price]

"He had the RIGHT to remain silent but not the ABILITY."



You have the right to remain silent and make no statement. USE IT.


First, make sure situation is safe. Don't let anyone run off with the BG's weapon! But don't start another incident. You are not LEO.
Safe your weapon and put it someplace out of a BG's direct reach, handy to you, but not "in your hand" so as not to get shot by LEO's.
Render whatever medical aid you can.
Call 911 and say there is an injured party at address, and you require police & EMT.

Call your lawyer.

Sit down and shut up.

Simple as that.

 

[TennVOL]

Call my wife since she's a lawyer

 

[jeepmor]

Offer medical assistance....not sure I agree

Render whatever medical aid you can.
Call 911 and say there is an injured party at address, and you require police & EMT.

911 and calling the ambulance is all the medical aid I would offer.

Keep my distance, let nature take it's course. If it's their day to check out, so be it. Help your attacker, sounds very good samaritan, but getting close to the person that just tried to kill you sounds pretty dumb to me.

As far as how to respond, follow the LEO and attorney device. Anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent, use it. It can't be held against you. You may come off as uncooperative, but LEO's responding know the drill, stick to the facts, keep them very short. Tell the emotional story to the lawyer, not the cops. Lawyers can filter it out, cops document everything, good, bad, indifferent and will provide it in court. Your attorney has the ability to be your filter, the police are not filters, they simply disseminate any and all information they are given, it's their job.

back to the "can and will be used against you" clause.


jeepmor

 

[The_Shootist]

Depends

Here in the Houston area if it goes down hard with one 40 something white guy dusting one to two 'bangers (bonus points are awarded if they are from 'Nawlins).....shrug. You'd pretty much have to shoot'em in the back of the head while they were kneeling for too many questions to be asked.

EVERY shooting I think means a Grand Jury in Texas. But like I alluded to - if you were even REMOTELY defending yourself , its gotton to the point around here where you'd get a medal before ya got billed by the Grand Jury.

 

[MartinBrody]

My only experience comes from watching police reality shows so here is what I learned.

On cops, whenever the patrolmen says if your honest with me I will help you out, the guy almost always would have been better off keeping his mouth shut.

However on shows like "The First 48" that follows the first 2 days of homocide investigations from the detectives point of view, the detectives do try to trip people up to find discrepancies in their stories. But when someone is being honest the cops aren't trying to frame them and are willing to exclude someone from being a suspect who has been forthcoming with them.

I would give the police a factual account of what happened and be willing to answer some questions. But after the initial interview would proceed with an attorney if I felt I was being setup. Maybe I am naive, I know cops make mistakes but in general I trust them. Perhaps if I wasn't being interviewed by local authorities I would feel differently. For example if I was in Philly I would not say a word without an attorney.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Yes, Mr. Lapin, Skip Gouchenour has spoken on this subject many, many times with us. Considering his profession, I'm highly persuaded to rely on his advice:

When patrol officers arrive they will likely ask, “What happened”? Your response is most likely admissible in a court proceeding, even if you have not been Mirandized. On the other hand, a response from you of “I would like to speak with my lawyer!” will probably subject you to a charging decision made without the benefit of your input. Patrol officers will not be inclined to wait for a lawyer to arrive, especially after mid-night. They will probably have the benefit of statements from the “victim” and any of his cohorts. The decision will probably be made with, or without your input.

At some point detectives will want to take a statement from you. The involvement of detectives usually means the process is slowed down by the methodical nature of their work. There will usually be time for a lawyer to arrive to represent you. It is likely the involvement of detectives will allow time for you to provide your story for use in the charging decision.

This was a very good discussion topic, and I suggest reading it in its entirety.

Something to the effect of explaining what can be verified by objective facts will suffice for the immediate interaction. "I was in fear of my life and had to use my gun to stop him. I understand your need to investigate and fully intend to cooperate after I have had an opportunity to have legal council." Anything beyond asking for an attorney for consultation won't help your situation.

You will be in NO condition to accurately and dispassionately recall what occurred. Statements made in an attempt to exonerate you will result in further specific questioning. Details you recall may not be immediately consistent with evidence, and once those investigating discover an inconsistency, they suspect and conclude lie, not mistake.

Do not expect to be able to explain your way out of an arrest. Simply anticipate spending the night in jail and appearing before a judge in the morning as part of problem 2. Once we accept this situation as inevitable, we can focus on the reality of everyone's role in the events that will unfold after the fight.


David, I'll add a 4th Amen to everything you said.


Invoking your 5th amendment right of silence cannot be used against you. Remember to allow your council to be your spokesperson.

 

[highlander 5]

If you live in Ma kiss everything you own good bye.

 

[LightningJoe]

I've known guys to turn up with bullet wounds from small caliber pistols and pretty lame explanations as to how they got them. I strongly suspect they received these wounds during unsuccessful burglaries or other similar action. Possibly the victims, after successfully defending themselves, notified the police. But since nobody ever showed up and arrested these guys, I suspect the victims deemed all well that ended well and went about their business. (I assume the police are canny enough to match up people who show up at hospitals with bullet wounds with recent reports of burglaries interrupted by armed defenders.)

 

[evan price]

AFAIK, hospitals are required to notify LEO if someone shows up with bullet wounds.

 

[Templar223]

Play the victim - you are, after all, the victim.

"Officer, he was trying to kill me / him / her / us. If he survives, I want to press charges.

The evidence is here, here and here.

The witnesses are here."

Then either (or some form of both):

"Officer, I think you understand how serious this is. I'm going to need to speak to counsel before answering any further detailed questions."

or

"Officer, I think you need to call an ambulance for me so I can get checked out at the hospital. I'm not feeling so well." When you get to the hospital, have them check your heart and do blood draws for alcohol and drugs (assuming you lead a clean lifestyle).

That's what I tell my students and what I'd do myself.

John

ETA: Credit goes to Ayoob for most of the above (thank you Mas) and as a rule, don't just say "I want my attorney!" You might not be doing yourself any favors.

 

[ilbob]

Know this - the police are not your friends.

That's all you need to know. Keep your mouth shut and call a lawyer.

Yep. You are not a friend. You are a suspect in virtually every encounter with a LEO. It would do you good to remember that.

 

[Oregongundude]

Thanks for all your opinions on this thread.

Thanks for all your opinions on this thread they are all very helpful.

 

[george29]

This is a card I printed for such an event

deleted....

 

[Templar223]

^^^

If I was on the jury hearing your case, I'd think the defendant was truly a strange bird when it came out that you were arrested with a card such as that.

John

 

[grampster]

Identify yourself, Politely and agreeably follow whatever instructions you are given by the police while keeping your mouth absolutely shut.

If you have a cell phone, your first action after removing the threat is to call your lawyer. His number should be on speed dial. I have my lawyer's number at his 3 residences, his private office # and his cell phone # on my phone.

If you don't have a cell phone, you can call him from the police station.

 

[White_Wolf]

Now let’s look at this situation from a more realistic perspective.

If there were no witnesses, I’d just run.

If you’re from Maryland like I am, CCW is nearly impossible. So chances are you’re violating the law by carrying and concealing the gun you used. This is only going to be interpreted as you were on the prowl looking for someone to shoot, or else you wouldn’t have bothered breaking the law by carrying that gun to begin with.

Let’s say you had a nice buzz going on. Better yet, your buzz was from marijuana. Now you were hopped up on drugs, staggering around in a daze, illegally carrying a gun, looking for trouble.

You’re going to jail on manslaughter charges at the very least.

What if you weren’t illegally carrying the gun, and you were sober, but it turns out the punk you shot, was only 17 years old. You’ve just murdered a little kid. You are going to hang.

What if you are legally carrying the gun, perfectly sober, but the attacker was Hispanic, and you’ve been spotted at an anti-illegal-immigration rally? Or you’re a member of The Minute Men. Or heaven forbid you are a genuine racist white person: Now you’ve committed a hate crime. The DA will convince the jury that you pulled the trigger because you wanted to murder a non-white, him mugging you was just the excuse to pull the trigger.

What if you’re sober, but you had some drugs in your possession, and under all the stress you totally forgot to ditch the drugs, or you didn’t do a good enough job of ditching the drugs, and your finger prints were on them. Now your self defense claim is turned into a drug deal gone bad scenario.

There are just so many reasons why you’re getting locked up. The cop’s job is to arrest people. The prosecutor’s job is to throw you in jail for the greatest amount of time. If you’re poor and can’t afford a real lawyer, and you get some public defender, the most he’s going to do is get you to cop a plea to manslaughter for a reduced sentence.

Again, if there are no witnesses, I’d just run. You’re not getting away with playing the victim. He’s dead, you’re alive; he’s the victim, not you.

I’ve seen this in domestic violence cases, and I’ve seen it in school yard fights. Whoever is visually injured; is the victim, whoever is left standing; is the bad guy.

I’ve read dozens of reports where it was pretty damn clear who the bad guy was, but the guy with the gun is up on murder charges.

I recall a really long time ago my uncle defended himself against five black men, and did so with a baseball bat. One of the guys wanted to call his bluff, got to close, and got hit with the bat. When the police showed up, the five little “thuggz” claimed my uncle had started the fight and was threatening them with the baseball bat and uttering racial slurs at them.

Apparently the cops really believe that it’s typical behavior for one white guy to grab a baseball bat from his trunk and start picking on five Negros, out of racial hate. Now add into the factor that each and everyone of these punks had a rap sheet of biblical proportions and it’s just amazing that any judge could find them to be the victims of an assault.

Maybe I’m paranoid, maybe I’ve been made to be bitter, but I don’t trust cops, and I have zero faith in the judiciary system, and I suspect if I ever had to shoot someone in self defense, I would spend the rest of my life in jail for murder.

Also, I wouldn’t make it in jail. I wouldn’t make it 6 months in jail. So a 6 month sentence, and death row, are the same to me.

 

[SJG26]

WW: "If there were no witnesses, I’d just run"

And what of the surveilance video from the bank/gas station/car wash across the street? The 3 people in the diner, the tell-tale DNA saliva/blood evidence, tire tracks, and any other number of CSI-like scenarios??

Not quite the High Road now, are we??