What makes the Lee action so smooth?

[cluttonfred]

I have often heard it said that while the Mauser action is strongest, the Lee action is smoothest and the Lee-Enfield was the fastest of the bolt-action battle rifles in terms of the rate of aimed fire that it can allow.

So what makes the Lee so smooth, and if it's so great, why are there so many modern Mauser derivatives but, as far as I know, no modern Lees?

Keep in mind I really like Lee-Enfields and would love to have one, so I am not knocking them, just trying to understand.

Thanks!

 

[briansmithwins]

Having the locking lugs at the rear of the bolt allows for shorter bolt travel. Also, the SMLE cocking on closing, so all you energy can go to breaking the fired case loose from the chamber walls. Typical Mauser actions cock on opening, making you extract and cock at the same time.

The SMLE type bolt is difficult to make as strong at a Mauser action as the bolt has to handle more stress. Given most post WWII cartridges have been exercises in 'more power' and the supply of cheap Mauser actions was neigh inexhaustible, it's easy to see why the Mauser has been so popular.

BSW

 

[Ian]

One big difference is that the Lee-Enfield cocks on closing, while the various Mauser types cock on opening. So the Mauser requires the most effort right when you start to open the bolt, while the Lee doesn't have that extra load until you are rotating the bolt handle back down, and when you're doing that you've gotten some inertia in your hand and arm from running the bolt forward. The Lee system is more efficient for the shooter.

I'm sure there's a negative side to a cock-on-closing setup, but I'm not sure what it is offhand.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The Mauser action is *smoother* than a Lee-Enfield, but not faster - the Enfield is faster. But as for smooth, it doesn't get much more butter-smooth than the old 88 commission rifles, upon which the Mausers were designed from 93 forward.

The *faster* of the Enfield has been explained - cock on closing, short bolt throw angle, and short bolt travel.

Some Mausers, like the 94 & 96, were/are cock on closing like the Enfield, but still not *as* fast as the Enfield.

 

[JesseL]

You don't know what a slick action is until you've handled a Krag.
It feels like glass riding on well greased roller bearings.

 

[Jim K]

All that being true, but the main thing the LE action has going for in terms of speed is the position of the bolt handle vs. the trigger guard. It is possible to operate the bolt using the thumb and forefinger (thanks to cock on closing) while using the middle finger to operate the trigger onto which it falls naturally when the bolt is closed.

That is not the case with any of the other rifles mentioned.

Jim

 

[cluttonfred]

So, are there any modern incarnations of a Lee-type action?

I am thinking that a lightweight Lee-type carbine in .223 cal/5.56 mm that takes AR-15 magazines would be very handy, sort of a bolt-action version of Remington's overpriced pump-action 7615.

PS--I have handled a Krag, and fired one, an original carbine (not a cut-down rifle). Great rifle, slick action, sweet cartridge, loved having the magazine cutoff and being able to top off the magazine easily .

 

[cluttonfred]

By the way, I have found some references that say that the Lee-Enfield is still standard issue to Indian police units as well as being used by both the Nepali Army and their Maoist rebel adversaries in Nepal.

I have also found that the Lee-Enfield is still standard issue in...Canada! Members of the volunteer Canadian Rangers are issued Lee-Enfields, though there is talk recently of modernizing their rifles. Who knew?

 

[woodyjustin42]

Well im no expert

But I recently puchased a sporterized no 4 mk1* made by savage during the war. Not that it has anything to do with it but I can get 10 rounds off in 8 secs. with the enfield... and I am left handed I love it!!!!!! I will sit there and play with the bolt for oh about 20-30 minutes a day. It is just such a gorgeous rifle they dont make them like that anymore. The sound and feel of the bolt is just awesome.

 

[woodyjustin42]

I have tried shooting it right handed and I can empty it in 7 secs. But they arent so well aimed that way. The way I used is the trigger finger and thumb for cocking and the bird finger for squeezing the trigger. The reason my aim wasnt so good that way is im left handed and left eye dominant. Once I work on it a little more I will be fine.

 

[Jeff F]

Probably the finest bolt action battle rifle ever made. I got bit by the Enfield bug (for which there is no cure) a few years ago. My wife just shake her head every time we go to a gun or pawn shop and the first thing I ask is do you have any Enfields.

 

[9mmepiphany]

you also have to bear in mind that there has been a bias against rear locking lugs on bolt actions due to "bolt compression"

other than the L/E, one of my favorite rear locking bolt actions was the Remington 788. there actually is a "modern" L/E being made in OZ...i think they are chambering for the 7.62x39mm as well as the 51mm

 

[Wheeler44]

Don't forget the model of 1917, brought to you by the collective genius of the UK and the US. It's sort of a cross between the Enfield and the Mauser. If only it had a ten round detachable magazine.

 

[Ash]

The GEW 88 has very little in common with the Mauser action. It has perhaps more in common with Carcano's than Mausers. Consider, the GEW 88 was a split-bridge, push-feed design unlike Mausers.

Ash

 

[Vaarok]

Gew 88s are a Louis Schlegelmilch design, same as the Carcano and most other turnbolt Mannlichers, like the Dutch, Romanian, Portugese Verguiero, and to a degree the Mosin.

 

[Ash]

Yeah, the GEW 88 and Mosin bolts have many common features - which are as you said are Mannlicher features. Indeed, when compared with the Carcano, the similarities are tremendous. Were I to mention a martial arm that was a push-feed, clip-loaded, split-bridge dual-opposed forward lugs, with bolt-mounted safety, I have described each of the rifles Vaarok mentions, but not a single Mauser.

Ash

 

[Slamfire]

you also have to bear in mind that there has been a bias against rear locking lugs on bolt actions due to "bolt compression"

That is true, and it is not unfounded. Rear locking actions compress more, and if you read about the development of the FN/FAL, case breakage was a known issue and was a concern. When you can design out a failure mode, why not?

As for the Lee Enfield being smoother and faster, well it certainly is when dry firing. However when I stuff Iraqi ball down the chamber, the rim friction on the receiver walls really slow down the bolt movement.

I have shot a modified M98 in competition, once you got the bolt open, the bolt movement was easier.

The Lee Enfield was in my opinion, the best of the battle bolt rifles; the Mauser M98 the best action ever made.

For all the nice things about the Lee Enfield, it just was not suited to easy conversion to rimless cartridges. The Mauser on the other hand, was chambered in a host of different rimless cartridges in the military world, and even more in the commerical world.

I have no idea of a manufacturing cost comparison, but that Lee Enfield would require one heck of a lot machining with that butt socket. Neither action was designed in today's environment where cheap manufacturing is a top goal.

I think it would be a hoot to have a Lee Enfield in 45/70.

 

[rcmodel]

but that Lee Enfield would require one heck of a lot machining with that butt socket.

I bet Ruger could Investment Cast them pretty cheap!

rcmodel

 

[steven04]

Theres a company over here that does conversions on L/E actions. They produce rifles in 5.56/9mm/30 carbine/etc

www.armalon.com