Who is this guy who killed 3 BG in a NYC subway??

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Goetz messed up bigtime. He shot one of the hoods after the kid had ran away and was trying to lay down and get away. That was the perp that was paralyzed. I think we all should know that no one should expect to use a handgun defensively and shoot a disengaged attacker and paralyze them and not get prosecuted or sued. It can get you convicted of murder if you kill someone like that, no matter how justified the initial shooting was. And, last I checked, you shoot to live, not to kill. Goetz's first, second, and third targets might have been OK, and I dont blame him at all for them.... but the fourth target wasn't a good shoot.
BSR
 
I Have Met Mr. Goetz

I Have Met Mr. Goetz(3 times), Once at the UN Rally Opposing the confrence on small arms(was also mayoral canadate) and at 2 computer shows, He didnt get off scott free as should have, one of the thugs Darrell Cabe (spelling) sued and he lost a civil judgement(million plus) Mr Cabe was paralized in the shooting.(should have been dead) Not that this has anything to do with anything but I doubt that he is a prohunting advocate as that he is a vegitarian.(dont know actual reason health/moral issue)
he was a bit strange but a frendly person.
Guy
 
It would seem to me that if the Jury truly "nullified" the case, he would have walked free and served no time at all. If I was on that jury I would have argued the second ammendment v. concealed carry rights and tried for "nullification" of that charge also.
edit to add:
For what it's worth I always go to jury duty and always hope I get on the jury.
I am self employed so this does hit me in the pocketbook but if I was in trouble I'd want a guy like me in the jury box. Read up on jury nullification and go when called. Don't be a weasel.
 
San Francisco had its own in Harold Lee. He was walking with his girlfriend in the park near Ghiradelli Square when four blacks hoodlums jumped him. He killed one, paralyzed another. DA attempted to prosecute for murder. Jury said, "No." DA prosecuted for assault with a deadly weapon. Jury said, "self-defense." DA then prosecuted for carrying a concealed weapon - a misdemeanor. He got probation.
 
The guy was VERY OCD sounding on the radio interview I also linked to in this forum. HE is a veggie for health reasons. Quite a charactor and IS running for mayor right now. He has a website....don't have a URL but it shouldn't be hard to dig up.
 
Found the site...guy is certifiably crazy

"I think there would be less conflict in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Korea, Iraq, and the rest of the world if people would eat less animals and more fruit and vegetables. International commerce of animals as food is detrimental to progress (and peace) and should be discouraged."

http://www.bernieformayor.com/pages/940375/index.htm
 
Bernie Goetz wasn't the perfect poster boy for self defense, but I'd have voted to aquit.

I think he was the inspiration for the far side cartoon that showed 4 frames

a) A puffer fish puffed up

b) A rattlesnake rattling it's tail

c) A cat with it's fur standing straight up

d) A guy standing on a streetcorner wearing a lifevest and carrying a bazooka and a hand grenade

Caption: Nature's way of saying "Do not touch"
 
"I think there would be less conflict in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Korea, Iraq, and the rest of the world if people would eat less animals and more fruit and vegetables. International commerce of animals as food is detrimental to progress (and peace) and should be discouraged."

"I think there would be less conflict in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Korea, Iraq and the rest of the world if people would embrace the Lord and pray for salvation."

Would you judge a person saying the 2nd statement above certifiably crazy?

He has a belief that some would find odd, but is not unusual in the human experience. For example, these folks.

As for Mr. Goetz, yea he messed up, but not in fighting back against the low-lifes.
 
Bernie is very outspoken. And I suspect he may be a "few bricks shy" but who am I to judge? I think it was his attitude and statements after the shooting that caused most of his problems.

I recall a sound byte, and I can't remember if it was from one of the trials or from a talkshow, where he stated that his attackers were a__holes and deserved to be shot (sorry Grandma but those were his words). While this statement may be completely true, it's just not a wise thing to say.

IIRC there were 3 trials (please correct me if I'm wrong), two criminal and one civil. The first trial was for the shooting and he was found innocent. After he started hitting the talk shows and running his mouth, they decided to hit him with the firearms charges. Then when he got out of jail he was sued by the paralyzed guy.
 
Bernie was 'no billed' by the first grand jury. Afterwards, he went on the talk show circuit and bad mouthed everybody. The Manhattan prosecutor couldn't stand the heat and brought him up before a 2nd grand jury. This time they indicted him.

Bernie then went on trial for several criminal charges. He only got convicted on one, carrying without a license. The jury later said that would not have even convicted him of that if they knew he was going to Rikers for 8 months. Essentially, the jury agreed with his actions on the No. 2 train.

Bernie lost a civil suit. Big deal. He ignored the order and hasn't paid a cent.
 
What I've heard is that Bernie's jury decided the shooting was justified in 15 minutes, and spent the next 4 days trying to figure out how to get him off the carrying w/o a permission slip charge.

Too bad jury nullification's not taught in civics classes any more....
 
"As for Mr. Goetz, yea he messed up, but not in fighting back against the low-lifes."

No one questioned that.

Look at his site. He is a loon.
 
Bernie had a high profile lawyer whose name escapes me now, Barry something. Luckily he worked pro bono otherwise it may have turned out differently.

Bernie turned himself in in Vermont where he fled after the shooting.
Manhattan detectives had narrowed down their search by checking the NYPD Pistol License Section for "repeaters", those who were very vocal and had tried numerous times to get a permit.

Colin Fergsuson, the LIRR shooter is the reason Carolyn McCarthy got elected to the U.S. House of Representatives. Her husband and son were on the train, both were shot, her husband died. She's the Sarah Brady of Long Island. Ferguson represented himself at trial assisted by Ron Kuby.
 
Sadly, if the Goetz case occurred today, the outcome might be the same. It is still illegal to carry in NYC, where even ownership requires a permit. I have relatives in NYC who think the real crime in all of this was that the shooter was not more vigorously prosecuted! You all know the type of folks who think the gun is the cause of the problem, and cannot comprehend that a gun could be the instrument allowing for self defense. Congresswoman McCarthy who rose to fame after the Ferguson case, still believes that gun control is the answer. She thinks that even though Colin Ferguson violated numerous laws when he took his gun on the train and started shooting innocent passengers, that somehow more gun control laws are the answer. I wrote to her once, expressing condolences for the loss of her husband and wounding of her son, and suggested that if NYC had reasonable concealed carry laws, possibly a legally armed passenger could have stopped Mr. Ferguson before he killed Mr. McCarthy. Of course Congresswoman McCarthy didn't even reply to my letter.
 
this article ran last week;



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-16-goetz_x.htm


20 years after Goetz, N.Y. a changed city

NEW YORK (AP) — Twenty years after the Barnhard Goetz subway shooting ignited a national furor over racism, gun control, crime and vigilante justice, New York is a far different place, and the sensational case now exists mostly as an artifact from another era.

On Dec. 22, 1984, Goetz, a meek-looking white man, rose from his seat on the No. 2 train, and shot four black youths, sparking a national outrage.

Many who were involve in the case say it's difficult to imagine a repeat of such an episode in today's New York.

"Could it happen now?" asked attorney Ron Kuby, who won a $43 million lawsuit against Goetz on behalf of paralyzed victim Darrell Cabey. "Inconceivable. Inconceivable that the attack would take place. Inconceivable that the attacker would be hailed as a hero."

Former New York chief of detectives Richard Nicastro, whose officers tracked Goetz down in New Hampshire nine days after the shootings, echoed Kuby's feelings.

"It's hard to imagine it happening again," said Nicastro, who retired in 1986. "What it showed was the fear most people had in traveling about."

At the time, there were 15,000 felonies a year on average in the subway — more than 40 every day around the nation's largest mass transit system. Twenty years later, there were just 2,760 felonies reported through Nov. 14 — barely eight per day. Murders in the subways, which topped out at 26 in 1990, are at zero for the year.

Subway ridership is at about 4.5 million riders daily; back then, the number of straphangers was in freefall, with one out of every four passengers abandoning the subways between 1965 and 1982. In 1984, ridership was at about 2.7 million per day.

Back then, the subways were covered in graffiti and inhabited by muggers, junkies, panhandlers, the homeless. The cost of admission was a mere 90 cents for a ride scarier than anything at Six Flags.

Track fires and train breakdowns became standard fare. But it was out-of-control crime in filthy trains and frightening stations that inflicted the heaviest wounds to the city psyche.

"The subways are everybody's second neighborhood," said Thomas Reppetto, a police historian who heads the Citizens Crime Commission. "If you live in Brooklyn, and see a story about a robbery in the Bronx, you think, 'Gee, that's terrible.' But if there's a story about a robbery in the subway, you think, 'Whoa. I ride down there.'"

One of those riders was Goetz, who brought a nickel-plated Smith & Wesson .38-caliber gun with him when he boarded a train shortly after 5 p.m. on a Saturday. The four youths had boarded the train in the Bronx, carrying sharpened screwdrivers.

"Give me five dollars," said Troy Canty, one of the four, as he approached the thin, bespectacled passenger. Goetz pulled his illegal weapon just north of the World Trade Center and began shooting.

"You don't look so bad," he told a wounded Cabey. "Here's another."

Goetz later said he never set foot on the subway again after that day.

He was cleared of attempted murder in 1987 but spent more than eight months in jail for a weapons conviction in the case. In 1996, a jury awarded Cabey $43 million.

The Cabey family never received one cent from Goetz, and Cabey remains in a wheelchair — "in a perpetual state of being an 8-year-old," Kuby said.

Goetz, a reluctant celebrity at best, slipped into obscurity and resurfaced infrequently: He mounted a doomed 2001 campaign for mayor. Recently, Goetz filmed scenes for a low-budget horror movie called Silver Night, in which he plays a nutritionist to vampires, and uses a gun.

He has rarely spoken about the shootings, and attempts to reach him for this story were unsuccessful.

The self-employed electronics calibrator lives in the same Greenwich Village apartment where he has resided for decades. His most recent cause was the redevelopment of ground zero; Goetz recently wrote former Mayor Ed Koch about his opposition to the design for the new Freedom Tower.

"I wrote him back, 'Bernie, the train has already left the station,'" Koch said.
 
I was living in NYC at the time

I remember it well,the media played him up to be a racist and al sharpton was protesting :barf:
Most thinking folks knew the thugs deserved it even one of the thugs said "we was robbing him" when you get mugged you can get stabbed even if you cooperate-it happened to me.
I remember not being hassled for a few months afterword,the shooting stopped a bunch of muggers :cool:
 
The Goetz case was an example of the ends justiying the means.

The four men were panhandling. They had surrounded him, which was a common muggers tactic. The sharpened screwdrivers they carried were not displayed

He got scared and started shooting with a gun illegally obtained in Fla, using an Fla drivers license even though he wasn't a resident of Fla.

When he had disabled all the attackers he shot one who he thought didn't look injured enough. He got a $42,000,000 bill from that guy.

New Yorkers were fed up with the subway and street crime at the time and embraced Bernie as a hero

He got damn lucky at trial
 
Could that USA Today article sound any more biased?

I read somewhere that NYC reclassified some crimes and that was a big reason for the "drop" in crime. I wish that I could remember where I read that.

So the black man who shot and killed the whites and Asians was crazy but the white man who shot 4 black men is a racist?
 
I worked with a guy who knew him on a personal level. Goetz was pesricuted to hell and back of the civil side. He never had ( or would have) a pot to squirt in afterwards. The BGs won in the end. :(
 
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