Why .40 when there is 10mm?

[Browning]

Browning the 135 gr Underwood is hardly "powderpuff" loads. That's my carry round. 135 gr Nosler JHP @ 1600 fps. The idea being massive expansion, minimal to no overpenetration. The beauty of the 10mm is its versatility. I can shoot what is (IMO) a perfect self defense load all the way up to 220 hardcast lead bullets for hunting the heaviest boned animals out there. Oh and I can also shoot 180 XTP Hornady for deer hunting. Show me another caliber where I can get that much variety and also carry 18 RDS in a controllable, concealable package. Doesn't exist.

In talking about the 'powderpuff' load that comment wasn't directed at you.

That was in talking about testing it out at the range and wanting a fair comparison between the .45 shooting +P loads and some middlin hot to hot 10mil loads. I switched subjects after trying to answer your question.

Was just saying that I'm not going to shoot some .40 vel 10mm loads, stick it on video and call it done.

I've seen some videos on the Underwood 135 gr stuff (TNTrouts videos I think) and it seemed pretty hot. I just don't have any experience with it so it's hard to say on something that I haven't shot.

 

[Jorzac]

Didn't take it personal, was just clarifying. Like I alluded to, one of the great things about the 10 is its versatility. Its no more expensive (buying the stuff thats loaded "right" online) than any other round. I agree that if all you're gonna shoot is standard stuff from a big box store at the range, than you might as well shoot a .40. But when I carry a gun, I want to carry the most powerful, practical gun that I can control. For some thats a 22mag, some its a 9mm, for me its a 10.

 

[Jorzac]

On another note, if anybody's only experience with the 10mm is with a "standard" 1911 (non-widebody) frame, give a glock a try. Makes a world of difference.

 

[agtman]

* * * The beauty of the 10mm is its versatility. I can shoot what is (IMO) a perfect self defense load all the way up to 220 hardcast lead bullets for hunting the heaviest boned animals out there. Oh and I can also shoot 180 XTP Hornady for deer hunting.* * *

Yep, exactly what I said early. But repetition isn't necessarily a bad thing. For some, repeating an obvious point aids comprehension.

* * * Show me another caliber where I can get that much variety and also carry 18 RDS in a controllable, concealable package. Doesn't exist.

You're right, and the 10mm-haters can't.

When gauging what are typically referred to as the semi-automatic "service cartridges" against the standard of versatility (i.e., 9mm, 357Sig, .40S&W, 10mm AUTO & .45acp), the 10mm wins it all day every day.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I am going to reply to Browning's PM to me to see what I can do to help him out. To do this right using the same platform (same gun except for caliber) and ammunition that chronos to spec is best practice. It is well known that some "hot loads" don't chrono as hot as advertised. I may have an old shot timer I don't use that I can send him since he is being a good sport. I agree with all you guys about the 10mm cartridge being more versatile than the 9, 40, and 45. That is one of the reasons why I have one.

 

[Jorzac]

This is for Browning and Wally, y'all are in Dallas and Houston respectively, I'm just north of Houston.... I would happily meet with either one of y'all (or anyone for that matter), and let you shoot my G20 or my G29 with some Underwood and Doubletap and let you see for yourself why so many people are starting to realize the merits of the 10mm.

 

[Onmilo]

The .40 S&W is the most interesting Marketing Ploys of the 20th Century!
Full of twists and turns marred with treachery and trumps.
The story deserves a whole book on the subject.
Synopsis;
S&W acted quickly to develop a new cartridge more suitable to new FBI demands after the agency rejected the 10mm as being TOO Powerful (?!?) ,(and hard for the average Agent to control, much less qualify with)), for the Agencies needs.
Smith and Wesson Developers quickly came up with a platform that met the demands, a caliber larger than 9mm but smaller than full power .45 acp and moving at a higher velocity than the latter but not going supersonic yet featuring bullet weights and performance in line with the best of the .45 acp offerings but without the recoil,,,, whew!

All this they accomplished in record time but it took them longer to perfect a handun platform scaled to the FBI requirements and in turn they were trumped by Glock in getting an actual working example in production and into FBI hands.
Upon FBI approval of the cartridge and platform, Police Agencies all over the Nation began to jump on the .40 S&W bandwagon.
After nearly 20 years of in field use, Agencies be they State, Local, or Federal are beginning to trend away from the .40 and back to either 9mm or .45 acp weapons.
The .40 S&W has always been plagued with Issues. It was NEVER a perfect design but simply a well marketed one.

The 10mm on the other hand, suffered none of the over pressure and accuracy problems that have plagued the .40 since it's very beginning but still remains a powerful cartridge when loaded to potential that is best served up as a hunting cartridge.
It is a brilliant design that has much in common with the similar all but dead duck .41 Magnum revolver cartridge.
The 10mm came on the scene too early and was poorly marketed as a potential Police use item because of Draconian restrictions on semi automatic handguns as potential hunting weapon platforms dreamed up by ill informed anti gun types in positions of power.
It remains one of the greatest handgun cartridge designs that all but never was,,,

 

[Grunt96]

The .40 S&W is the most interesting Marketing Ploys of the 20th Century!
Full of twists and turns marred with treachery and trumps.
The story deserves a whole book on the subject.
Synopsis;
S&W acted quickly to develop a new cartridge more suitable to new FBI demands after the agency rejected the 10mm as being TOO Powerful (?!?) ,(and hard for the average Agent to control, much less qualify with)), for the Agencies needs.
Smith and Wesson Developers quickly came up with a platform that met the demands, a caliber larger than 9mm but smaller than full power .45 acp and moving at a higher velocity than the latter but not going supersonic yet featuring bullet weights and performance in line with the best of the .45 acp offerings but without the recoil,,,, whew!

All this they accomplished in record time but it took them longer to perfect a handun platform scaled to the FBI requirements and in turn they were trumped by Glock in getting an actual working example in production and into FBI hands.
Upon FBI approval of the cartridge and platform, Police Agencies all over the Nation began to jump on the .40 S&W bandwagon.
After nearly 20 years of in field use, Agencies be they State, Local, or Federal are beginning to trend away from the .40 and back to either 9mm or .45 acp weapons.
The .40 S&W has always been plagued with Issues. It was NEVER a perfect design but simply a well marketed one.

The 10mm on the other hand, suffered none of the over pressure and accuracy problems that have plagued the .40 since it's very beginning but still remains a powerful cartridge when loaded to potential that is best served up as a hunting cartridge.
It is a brilliant design that has much in common with the similar all but dead duck .41 Magnum revolver cartridge.
The 10mm came on the scene too early and was poorly marketed as a potential Police use item because of Draconian restrictions on semi automatic handguns as potential hunting weapon platforms dreamed up by ill informed anti gun types in positions of power.
It remains one of the greatest handgun cartridge designs that all but never was,,,

Disagree, and feel the 40s&w and 10mm make an excellent pair. Owning one of each covers most all bases, and I love that I can use the same bullets to load each. Both the 40s&w and 10mm are most often not loaded to potential. I'm pushing 165gr Gold Dots @1200fps (96a1), and my favorite 10mm load is 180gr XTP @1350 fps in a Glock 20sf with 6" barrel for the woods.

Hodgdon list the 180gr in 40s&w @ 1149fps from a 4" barrel using Longshot. That's a hefty load in comparison to factory loads, and that should put me very close if not at 1200fps in the 4.9" Beretta barrel. I think that is darn good.

You mentioned accuracy issues, and I will say that while my Glock 40s&w's weren't ever the most accurate guns; my 96a1 is a nail driver. I can see why some people don't like the 40s&w due to experiences with some platforms, but it is an excellent cartridge in the right platform. Matter of fact I think both the 40s&w and 10mm cartridges are an improvement over the 45acp.

 

[Onmilo]

Grunt 96
Back around 1995 I did a LOT of testing with the .40 S&W carridge including handloading of new manufacture and reloading of fired cartridge cases.
The pistol I ended up using was an INOX M96 Beretta simply because I could not get my hands on a Glock or Smith and Wesson or what I really wanted to use, an H&K USP, at that time.

I found the Beretta to be perfectly functional with the cartridge, something that frankly surprised me but my accuracy results were not on par with yours.
I chalked the accuracy issues up to my shooting capabilities with the gun/cartridge combination at that time and let it go.

Over the years I have now had the opportunity to fire many examples of .40 S&W pistols and my opinion of the accuracy unpotential of the cartridge remains firm.

However that isn't to say the cartridge does not meet combat accuracy standards, it does.

My biggest concerns with the cartridge revolve around over maximum pressure spikes which in the case of the .40 involve very narrow windows.
This isn't a cartridge for the experimenter who likes to walk on the side of maximum loads.
Some of the stuff I tried should and probably WOULD have blown up a lesser gun than that Beretta.

 

[TestPilot]

Ah, Jesus.

Why is it so hard for some of these people to understand that someof us just want a larger caliber ammo that fits in a 9mm size magazine?

I have no intention of hunting with it.
I do not want a pistol with a larger grip than my M&P 40.
I really do not give a rat's a$$ about what load makes 10mm recoil soft as a 40S&W or what loading makes it a 44 Magnum power. I just want to buy a box of Speer or Winchester and be done with it. I am not Mr. frickin Taffin and I don't have any particular desire to be one.

Then there are some who comes here and spew some bogus story about how 40S&W was plagued with problems.

I have used it for years, and the caliber itself served me well.

Accuracy? My M&P40 has head shot accuracy at 35 yards.
Pressure? Of course it has high pressure. Its purpose is to drive a bullet larger and heavier at a speed no slower than a "light and fast" 9mm, so what did you expect? That scares you? Fine. Don't shoot it. Problem solved. None of my pistols blew up, but whatever.
So, why 40S&W than 10mm?

It fits my purpose. 10mm do not. What part of that is so hard to understand?

 

[Grunt96]

Grunt 96
Back around 1995 I did a LOT of testing with the .40 S&W carridge including handloading of new manufacture and reloading of fired cartridge cases.
The pistol I ended up using was an INOX M96 Beretta simply because I could not get my hands on a Glock or Smith and Wesson or what I really wanted to use, an H&K USP, at that time.

I found the Beretta to be perfectly functional with the cartridge, something that frankly surprised me but my accuracy results were not on par with yours.
I chalked the accuracy issues up to my shooting capabilities with the gun/cartridge combination at that time and let it go.

Over the years I have now had the opportunity to fire many examples of .40 S&W pistols and my opinion of the accuracy unpotential of the cartridge remains firm.

However that isn't to say the cartridge does not meet combat accuracy standards, it does.

My biggest concerns with the cartridge revolve around over maximum pressure spikes which in the case of the .40 involve very narrow windows.
This isn't a cartridge for the experimenter who likes to walk on the side of maximum loads.
Some of the stuff I tried should and probably WOULD have blown up a lesser gun than that Beretta.

Ultimately I think it boils down to guns being very personal tools. Your experience with the 96 differs from mine, and I'm sure mine differs from others, so on, and so on. I've attached a picture of my first trip to the range with my 96a1. It is a 3 shot group at 7 yards going from DA to SA, and is the first shots I fired out of it. also had no problems nailing head shots at 20 yards dead center, over and over again.

 

[Cee Zee]

OK I've read about as much of this thread as I need to read. I have a life outside of THR. But I will make a comment or two before I go.

Thats pretty much standard protocol for any message board/forum on every subject.

You think that maybe that's because they made their decisions to buy the guns they own based on their thinking? If they thought a .40 was a better choice when they bought their gun why would they have changed their mind now? Would you expect them to support something they didn't choose? It's not vapid self-aggrandizement that causes them to support their own equipment. It's a reflection of the thought process they have already been through.

But the .40S&W IS a "compromise" cartridge in regard to shooter capability and aptitude - between those who can handle the 10mm and are willing to train with it consistently to maintain proficiency, and those who can't or won't.

Why don't you shoot a .44 magnum? After all it clearly has more energy and will kill people much deader than a puny 10mm. Yes I'm being sarcastic because it's over the top of you to assume that everyone should make the same choice you did. After all there's no evidence that not being able to reload as fast is a real detriment in a gun fight. There are no stats to back that up so it must not be true, right?

Dude, you will sing a very different tune when you get old and osteoarthritis starts hitting your joints (like with presbyopia and your eyes, its a matter of when, not if), some folks are unfortunate and have it hit in their 30s or 40s, or worse have rheumatoid arthritis.

Some of us got it both ways wally. But when it comes to my prevention of lead poisoning I will take my medicine and practice with whatever I think works best for me. In my case I choose either a .40 or a .45 unless I go to the woods where I carry a .44 mag.. Trust me that one ticks off little arthur in a big way. But I've shot it enough to hit what I shoot at. OH yeah. Sometimes I take a .380 to Wallyworld with me but that's not exactly the local tug and hug bar where the baddies hang out.

But don't say that you can't get quick, accurate follow up shots with the 10mm.

Don't say that everyone can because they can't. And much of this depends on the design of the gun anyway. A high axis pistol is much harder to get follow up shots with than one with a lower axis. I have a Sig P220 that shoots like a dream but when it comes to ripping off a whole mag my Taurus beats the pants off it because of the high axis of the Sig. The Taurus recoils straight back and it has far less felt recoil also.

Again we get back to the dearth of choices in the 10mm realm. It's hard enough to find a gun with ergonomics I like in a much more popular caliber. And again, no matter what gun people say should be the minimum choice someone else can always up the ante until we're all shooting bazookas we hid down our pants leg.

 

[SDGlock23]

I'm not sure I totally understand the statements on how wonderfully versatile the 10mm is, as if perhaps somehow the .40 or .45 aren't, like there's some huge difference between these service cartridges.

The 10mm has more "power" on paper but how useful is that really in the real world? An energy figure in the form of ft-lbs is just that, it's a numerical value that to me, way too many people focus on.

It seems the norm for some to say the 10mm is a good choice for the woods and either say or imply that the .40 or .45 isn't. The issue that I have is that if I load up a G20 (I've owned several) shooting a warm 180gr at 1350 fps, what exactly will that absolutely kill that a warm .40 180gr @ 1300 fps from a G35 or warm 230gr @ 1000 fps from a G21 will not?

My point is that if you think the 10mm will kill anything any better than a .40 or .45, you're drawing a line in the sand, so to speak that says the 10mm can absolutely do something that the others absolutely cannot, which isn't true. That line doesn't exist, it only exists in the mind, not in reality.

So hearing that the 10mm is good for the "biggest" of game is rather silly. And if someone truly does think the 10mm can kill something that the .40 or .45 can't despite the rather minute difference in actual ability, then why barely skirt by using the 10mm and instead carry a more potent .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt, etc?

I'd like to know what the 10mm diehards opinions on this are.

 

[mavracer]

You think that maybe that's because they made their decisions to buy the guns they own based on their thinking? If they thought a .40 was a better choice when they bought their gun why would they have changed their mind now? Would you expect them to support something they didn't choose?

The problem is when they so want to minamize the negatives of their choice that they start to argue that they don't exist.
The 9mm guys say the extra damage done by larger calibers won't and can't possibly make any difference.
big bore fans do the same with round count.
People even argued that the 40 isn't a compromise of course it is all handguns are a compromise of some nature otherwise a baby browning would have 50 BMG power and hold 1000 rounds.
Folks need to face the fact that "best compromise" is a oxymoron. Whatever your choice is there's flaws in it.

 

[Potatohead]

...

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Cee Zee: If they thought a .40 was a better choice when they bought their gun why would they have changed their mind now?

Did you read the link in post #122?

The author of the article, a very well known trainer, has changed his mind at least a couple of times, changing from a .45 to a .40 and then to a 9MM.

 

[Harry1969]

I think anybody with half a brain should (and probably already has) reamed the chambers of all their 9mm luger guns to shoot 9x21 IMI.

And people with their entire brain intact just buy a bigger caliber gun

 

[Grunt96]

And people with their entire brain intact just buy a bigger caliber gun

Or just buy a conversion barrel.

 

[Harry1969]

^ Yup

 

[Nom de Forum]

So getting back to the thread topic; .40 because power is sufficient for SD, double column magazine pistol size fits more hands better, and shot to shot recoil recovery time is faster.

I have put something together in a PM for Browning to consider for comparison testing the difference in shot to shot recovery time between .45acp and 10mm. I am awaiting his PM reply. Has anyone reading this thread done an unbiased test of the difference between these two calibers and has data to share? Please let me know. I would like to pick your brain for ideas.

 

[GLOOB]

Or just buy a conversion barrel.

Not sure if you guys read the original comment. But you would have to have half a brain to think reaming out your chamber for 9x21 IMI is an upgrade.

I suppose you could manufacture a benefit from the longer case by custom loading super light ammo well over SAAMI OAL, maybe in a Glock or a throated 45ACP platform which can feed longer rounds. A regular parabellum case might not hold onto enough bullet in this special case.

Other than that, you aren't going to get any difference by making the case longer and keeping the same OAL out of the SAME gun. It doesn't matter if you are buying factory ammo or handloading. It's the same cartridge only it's intentionally made to NOT fit into a 9mm para handgun. If you can legally own a 9x19, what's the point of 9x21, then? Just in case you accidentally buy a pallet of the wrong ammo?

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I've said this before, but I've been shooting 10mm since the 80s. No interest in .40. If I want .40, I'll just download for one of my 10s. However, lower the price of .40 to what 9mm used to be and I've got a new cartridge.

 

[jhb]

Weirdly i prefer 10mm over .40s&w. I prefer 9mm over both. 9mm in modern form has everything one needs for human sized threats. For walking in the swamps those pesky big raccoons we call florida black bears my glock 20 is a needed caliber.

I find .40s&w lacking a home. Same goes for my .38 supers and .357sigs. Still like them and shoot them but I find 9mm to be enough for most needs. If I need bigger I grab gods caliber .45acp. If I need even bigger I grab 10mm.

All the others are great too but they fall into luxuries for myself not needs.

Personal likes aside.....I find uses for all the calibers I own. Most of those uses are for fun though. As usual too each their own.....choices are always better than no choices.

 

[HisStigness]

Not sure if you guys read the original comment. But you would have to have half a brain to think reaming out your chamber for 9x21 IMI is an upgrade.

I suppose you could manufacture a benefit from the longer case by custom loading super light ammo well over SAAMI OAL, maybe in a Glock or a throated 45ACP platform which can feed longer rounds. A regular parabellum case might not hold onto enough bullet in this special case.

Other than that, you aren't going to get any difference by making the case longer and keeping the same OAL out of the SAME gun. It doesn't matter if you are buying factory ammo or handloading. It's the same cartridge only it's intentionally made to NOT fit into a 9mm para handgun. If you can legally own a 9x19, what's the point of 9x21, then? Just in case you accidentally buy a pallet of the wrong ammo?

My original post was a commentary on the people that refuse to shoot anything less than powerful than a 10mm auto, because 40 (short and weak) is just inadequate. If 40 isn't good enough, then a puny 9mm surely isn't, so we should all "upgrade" our guns to shoot 9mm "magnum"

 

[gandog56]

Why not both?
This is with my .40


This is with my 10.