Everything else being equal, more energy out the front means more recoil.
Why .40 when there is 10mm?
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Everything else being equal, more energy out the front means more recoil.
There are applications in which the great energy of the 10MM will prove beneficial, but an excess for other applications does not translate into versatility. For use in an urban or suburban environment, is is likely not a good choice for anyone but a sworn officer, and even then, or limited use..
Recoil is defied in terms of the velocity at which the firearm moves backwards; it results from the momentum imparted to the projectile and other ejecta, the momentum of the gun it equal to that momentum, and the velocity is the momentum divided by the mass of the gun. That's neither subjective nor psychological.
Recoil manifests itself in the movement of the gun from the line of sight; more movement means that the next aimed shot will be delayed more. That's not subjective.
Recoil also manifests itself in cumulative, permanent physical damage to the shooter. that's not psychological.
Penetration is a certainty, and "over penetration" will occur whenever the projectile does not stop in the target or the intended backstop.
Injury to a third person may indeed be rare, but the potential consequences are extremely severe .
That risk can be mitigated.
Using a firearm that is more powerful than is necessary creates risk and provides noo benefit whatsoever.
wally
Member
Dude, you will sing a very different tune when you get old and osteoarthritis starts hitting your joints (like with presbyopia and your eyes, its a matter of when, not if), some folks are unfortunate and have it hit in their 30s or 40s, or worse have rheumatoid arthritis.
Arkansas Paul
Member
It is most certainly not "totally" subjective. It is something that is scientifically measureable. You can look at charts at how much recoil each caliber/load produces in a particular rifle. If recoil was "totally" subjective, everyone on the planet could handle a .458 Win mag. They can't.
For all you 9mm aficionados out there who say that you can't get back on target, go on youtube, search "shooting 10mm fast". There is a video where a guy shoots 9mm +p, 45 +p, and doublebtap 10mm (real stuff, not watered down Blazer). There is virtually no difference in speed, and ALL shots are on target. Just goes to show you that an experienced, knowledgeable shooter can be proficient and accurate with a 10mm. Bottom line is shoot what you're comfortable with. But don't say that you can't get quick, accurate follow up shots with the 10mm.
Jus because "there aren't many agencies that are going to adopt 10mm" doesn' make it a dead letter.
There are a ton of semiauto handgun cartridges around that will never be adopted by a police agency or security force.
This is why you always get the highest energy out of the lightest bullet for caliber. If you tried to match that with heavier bullets, the momentum would be higher at the same kinetic energy, the recoil would be higher, and the gun could not function at the faster slide velocity. People get overly focused on pressure, but it's not the pressure that is causing the majority of the problem. It's quite often the recoil/momentum ceiling that semiauto handgun ammo hits, first.
There are a ton of semiauto handgun cartridges around that will never be adopted by a police agency or security force.
Everything else being equal, yes. Meaning same bullet weight. But momentum is more highly correlated to recoil than is energy. You don't have to hold all else equal when comparing momentum with recoil.
This is why you always get the highest energy out of the lightest bullet for caliber. If you tried to match that with heavier bullets, the momentum would be higher at the same kinetic energy, the recoil would be higher, and the gun could not function at the faster slide velocity. People get overly focused on pressure, but it's not the pressure that is causing the majority of the problem. It's quite often the recoil/momentum ceiling that semiauto handgun ammo hits, first.
The 10mm is great for those who can handle it - but not for those who can't. I have a Glock 20, a 21, and a 21sf, all Gen3 guns. I am a knowledgeable, experienced shooter who has no problem shooting all three accurately at speed. But I can shoot a G23 just as accurately and noticeably faster, and a 26 will positively spank all the others.
Anyone who can shoot a 10mm well can shoot a .40 at least as well - but the converse is not true. Many folks find the .40 too much, and shoot a 9mm better.
The FBI found the 10mm to be unsatisfactory for enough of it's agents to cause them to move away from it - and it was their baby. Remember what they were shooting it in, as well.
Anyone who can shoot a 10mm well can shoot a .40 at least as well - but the converse is not true. Many folks find the .40 too much, and shoot a 9mm better.
The FBI found the 10mm to be unsatisfactory for enough of it's agents to cause them to move away from it - and it was their baby. Remember what they were shooting it in, as well.
Just because some shooters can (and do) shoot a particular make, model, and chambering well doesn't mean EVERYONE can.
Meh. I can't say I agree with this, unless you add a caveat that you are shooting from the exact same platform. There are a lot of 40SW handguns that aren't very recoil-friendly.
This is kinda like comparing 45ACP to 9mm. A LOT of guys will tell you they shoot 45ACP at least as good or better. Of course, the guns is different!
Well who said that everyone can shoot a 10mm? Nobody. That statement was to refute all the people who say say that you can't get follow up shots quickly and accurately with the 10mm. There are people who can't shoot a 9, there are people who can't shoot a 380. Thank goodness there are guns for them. Nobody has said that everybody can shoot a 10 effectively. But plenty can and do.
Dude, please, try reading comprehension. No one's saying it's got to be 200gns @ 1200+fps all the time.
"Versatility of use" means you can pick the energy level of the 10mm that "fits" your application.
The 10mm accepts a wide range of bullet-weights & styles and there are numerous factory offerings that run that range - from the low-end, powder-puff .40-level loads all the way to nuclear stuff, such as Underwood and DT make. There's also midrange 10mm ammo from Corbon, Geo. Arms and other makers. You can choose milder loads for targets or competition, hotter mid-range loads for CCW, duty use or training, and the full-throttle stuff for hunting, e.g., hogs, if you handgun hunt. Many also prefer the full-power 10mm with FMJ or Hardcast for the back-up pistol they take with them when they hunt with a rifle (my case), or if they happen to be hiking, camping, or fishing in backcountry areas where 4- and even 2-legged predators roam.
Handloading the 10mm simply opens more doors in terms of versatility and lowering shooting costs.
You're leaping from a definition of "overpenetration" to an invalid conclusion of the certainty of liability.
The cases of documented liability at least in police cases (meaning, a court ruling or jury verdict against the shooter finding him liable, not pre-trial "settlements" where no liability is admitted) have occurred where the errant rounds missed the intended target and wounded or killed an innocent bystander (IB). That makes your assertion a non sequitar.
Again, and as former FBI FTU agent Urey Patrick noted in his "Wounding Factors" monograph, the cases of justified shootings by L.E. in which the cop's bullet hit the bad guy, penetrated through him, struck an IB and for which the cop or his dept were later held liable, are nil. Lawsuits aside, even those shootings where the over-penetrating round struck an IB are so statically rare that Patrick advised ignoring it as a factor in the selection of the proper cartridge for L.E. use on the streets.
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Wasn't the 9-minimeter designed by an arthritic?
Seriously, dude, no less a pistolero than Mas (dead-eye) Ayooby is on record as stating that while he likes the 10mm, he's also an advanced arthritic (apparently a family inheritance) and so he can tolerate it only to a certain level. Per his published comments, the maximum felt-recoil that Mas can handle while shooting his $5,000 Mark Morris-built Delta Elite comes from a 155gn slug @ 1300fps. His custom Delta also runs a special compensator that Morris designed to further dampen recoil. Sure, ol' Mas winces on every shot in the IPSC events, but he still hangs in there.
No question, physical aliments or conditions will affect your ability to handle recoil. But physical aliments aside, tolerance for felt-recoil is still subjective from shooter-to-shooter and is, as aforesaid, largely a psychological matter.
In other words, if you believe it's going to hurt, then it will.
"I just saw a 10mm!
Make it go away, ... puhlease!"
In the event of a panic-attack at the range, which can arise from trying to anticipate how the recoil of a given pistol might feel like, the remedy normally prescribed is to close your eyes, tap your heals together, and repeat at least three times: "there's no place like home."
All your recoil fears will magically fade away.
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HisStigness
Member
I think anybody with half a brain should (and probably already has) reamed the chambers of all their 9mm luger guns to shoot 9x21 IMI.
I have a 10mm (a Glock 20SF) that I like. I use it either as a woods gun (hiking or backup for hog hunting and bear) or as a house gun with a TLR-1 light. Also have a KKM .40 Smith conversion barrel for cheap steel cased former commie .40 Smith ammo for it.
Doesn't recoil as much as some people believe even with full house loads. 15 rds of hot 10mm that are between a hot .357 Mag and a hot .41 Mag beats trying to shoot full power rds out of a .357 Mag scandium revolver and are being fired out of a platform that's way easier to shoot and hit with.
That's a pretty potent package.
In the woods I don't know if I'm going to have a close encounter with a bear, a sounder of hogs or 4 armed meth-heads looking to protect their mobile lab and they're spun out of their mind and paranoid. 15 rds of 10mm vs 6 of .357 mag or .41 Mag is a little more general purpose to me.
One other thing I found out recently is that while a 10mm Underwood TMJ may not go through a Level III vest, it will make a 3 inch cone into them.
So to recap...
-Brown bear, check
-Hogs, check
-Woods roving meth-heads who's family members were possibly starring in 'Deliverance' umpteen years ago, check
-Body armor wearing bad guys, almost a check as they'll have a huge cone dug into their chest and if that doesn't kill them on it's own it'll allow you a writhing target on the ground to shoot in the head or pelvis if they still pose a threat.
Doesn't recoil as much as some people believe even with full house loads. 15 rds of hot 10mm that are between a hot .357 Mag and a hot .41 Mag beats trying to shoot full power rds out of a .357 Mag scandium revolver and are being fired out of a platform that's way easier to shoot and hit with.
That's a pretty potent package.
In the woods I don't know if I'm going to have a close encounter with a bear, a sounder of hogs or 4 armed meth-heads looking to protect their mobile lab and they're spun out of their mind and paranoid. 15 rds of 10mm vs 6 of .357 mag or .41 Mag is a little more general purpose to me.
One other thing I found out recently is that while a 10mm Underwood TMJ may not go through a Level III vest, it will make a 3 inch cone into them.
So to recap...
-Brown bear, check
-Hogs, check
-Woods roving meth-heads who's family members were possibly starring in 'Deliverance' umpteen years ago, check
-Body armor wearing bad guys, almost a check as they'll have a huge cone dug into their chest and if that doesn't kill them on it's own it'll allow you a writhing target on the ground to shoot in the head or pelvis if they still pose a threat.
bangswitch
Member
I have both a .40 (Ruger SRc) and a 10mm (G20). I carry the .40 because it's as compact as any comparable model in 9mm, and have the 10mm for times when I can CC a full size pistol, usually in a shoulder rig under a heavy coat. I load for both, and generally even use the same bullet weight in both calibers. For my purposes, a 155 at high velocity works great in the 10mm, and the 155 loaded to upper range .40 loads isn't that much less than a 10mm loaded down a step or two. Each caliber suits its platform just fine, the .40 in a compact, and the 10mm in a full size. I do see them as 1st cousins to the .38/.357, just more capable than either. The 10mm actually closely approaches the .41 Magnum more than it does the .357.
I've never considered either the .40 or 10mm to have an objectionable recoil. Neither is as bad as the .357 I once had, most likely due to the decrease in felt recoil from the autoloader's slide action absorbing part of it.
I've never considered either the .40 or 10mm to have an objectionable recoil. Neither is as bad as the .357 I once had, most likely due to the decrease in felt recoil from the autoloader's slide action absorbing part of it.
I am not.
I stated that the potential consequences of injuring a third person are extremely severe. Do you really disagree with that?
Okay, but why on Earth would anyone ever exclude pretrial settlements? They are an integral part of the civil tort process.
What assertion? A non sequitur from what?
One other thing: a police officer will never want to harm any innocent bystander, but should he do so after having followed department policy, his personal liability will be limited. Not so for anyone else.
But liability is but part of the picture. Do you really want to send bullets through walls if you an avoid it?
The point was that physical ailments are likely--at best--to result from recoil. You might like to ask John Taffin, or a physician.
I have no idea what you mean by "tolerance for felt recoil", but neither the movement of the gun noor the time it takes to get it back on target are subjective or psychological.
Screwball
Member
Guess I got less than half a brain...
In regards to 10mm verses.40, I have both. Two S&W M&P40s (a Compact and a 5" Pro) and a S&W 1006. They have their uses and roles. Considering I've been shooting .44 Magnum (6" S&W 629-1) since I was 12, I'm happy with the 10mm. No real issue with full power loads, and I actually prefer the cartridge as a general use cartridge. My .40 pistols have a use, but I bought them because they were .40 (at that time, I only had a Beretta 96 conversion slide). I likely will get .357 SIG barrels for them, since I don't see the 3rd Generation conversion barrel project on S&W Forum going forward. Just like added ability. Are any of the guns I carry .40 or 10mm (on-duty or off-duty)? NOPE!
9mm (issued SIG, plus SIG P938), .45 ACP (Glock 30S), .38 Special (S&W 642-1) and .380 ACP (Ruger LCP). Main reason is ease of carry. Can I carry my 1006? You bet (I have a holster somewhere around), but I really don't have the desire to.
Are either of the two calibers in my home defense role? Nope... any of the above can find their way into that (might be the quickest thing to bring into action), but my 12 Gauge Remington 870 Police does a great job next to my bed.
Cost does play a role, but I do find time to shoot most of my guns. Just comes down to performance need doesn't warrant the hassle of carrying a stainless steel handgun. And with the M&P Compact, the P938 is pretty different in comparison. Would rather carry the P938 on my ankle, and it is very comfortable on the belt. IWB, I rather have the Glock (can argue performance between.40 and .45, but I just like it; and since I'm carrying it, that is all that matters).
HisSoldier
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There seems to be a lot of emotion in the mix when anyone makes any statement against a weaker round, you an see it in all the 9MM threads. I suspect it is a macho thing, we don't want our masculinity questioned if we like the weaker rounds.
But for fun shooting a .22 is fine. Guess I'm a sissy.
So far in my life a .22 has always been more than "enough", meaning I've never needed a lot of power for plinking. But if I was in danger often there is no way I''d accept a .22, nor a 9MM or .40, and frankly, though I love the .45 ACP, it is not the equal of a ten, I'd carry a ten.
Ammo cost? My life is actually worth a good deal more to me than the difference between the cost of .40 and 10 MM, anyway, I load my own, supply is not an objection.
But much of the discussion about stopping power and penetration is wasted typing energy, as most of us will never shoot a handgun in anger.
As for the macho factor, my wife defines that for me, and the opinion of anyone else is meaningless to me. She doesn't like to shoot my Dan Wesson 10MM though. (grin)
But for fun shooting a .22 is fine. Guess I'm a sissy.
So far in my life a .22 has always been more than "enough", meaning I've never needed a lot of power for plinking. But if I was in danger often there is no way I''d accept a .22, nor a 9MM or .40, and frankly, though I love the .45 ACP, it is not the equal of a ten, I'd carry a ten.
Ammo cost? My life is actually worth a good deal more to me than the difference between the cost of .40 and 10 MM, anyway, I load my own, supply is not an objection.
But much of the discussion about stopping power and penetration is wasted typing energy, as most of us will never shoot a handgun in anger.
As for the macho factor, my wife defines that for me, and the opinion of anyone else is meaningless to me. She doesn't like to shoot my Dan Wesson 10MM though. (grin)
I took someone's advice and put the numbers from known loads for both calibers into a recoil calculator on (another website).com and got the following results.
10mm Auto:7.6/BE-86/190gr. JHP .45ACP: 10.5/BlueDot/200gr. JHP
Recoil Impulse (lbs. sec): 1.10 1.08
Velocity/Recoiling Firearm(f/s): 14.20 13.94
Free Recoil Energy (ftxlbs): 7.83 7.55
I assumed the rounds were fired from 1911-esque platforms, weighing 40 ounces, and my comparison of one load for each caliber is hardly exhaustive, but it's late and my bed's calling me.
And guess WHAT! The 10mm DOES recoil more heavily! By a big, burly, bouncing 3.71%. I wonder if I could tell the difference, blindfolded.
10mm Auto:7.6/BE-86/190gr. JHP .45ACP: 10.5/BlueDot/200gr. JHP
Recoil Impulse (lbs. sec): 1.10 1.08
Velocity/Recoiling Firearm(f/s): 14.20 13.94
Free Recoil Energy (ftxlbs): 7.83 7.55
I assumed the rounds were fired from 1911-esque platforms, weighing 40 ounces, and my comparison of one load for each caliber is hardly exhaustive, but it's late and my bed's calling me.
And guess WHAT! The 10mm DOES recoil more heavily! By a big, burly, bouncing 3.71%. I wonder if I could tell the difference, blindfolded.
Saleen322
Member
FWIW, here is the clip from Patrick: The fear of over penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow point ammunition. In the process we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough. Further if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of the shots fired never hit their intended target and nobody ever worries about them-only the ones that might “over penetrate” the bad guy. SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit.
The 10mm is an accurate round that delivers pretty decent power from a standard auto-loader platform. The hand loader can get a lot of range from the 10mm. It handles bullets on the heavier end well and it even has a higher SAAMI MAP pressure ceiling than the 40 S&W. However also as others have mentioned, speed gun games (Bill drill, etc) will generally benefit from shooting the smallest round permitted that makes whatever minimum power floor. I have a compensated .22 Short with an electronic trigger that you could shoot real fast @ 7 yards if you are into such things. I will go out on a limb and say that I would beat my time with that 22 against a 10mm pretty handily but I don't think it would be my first choice to return fire at someone who is shooting at me. In that case, the 10mm would look pretty good!
Saleen332: good points, and thanks for linking that quote from Urey Patrick.
And despite some of the errant info and nonsensical claims made on this thread, many here would benefit from a careful reading of Patrick's book "In Defense of Self," which examines the law, policies and practices involving the use of deadly force by LEOs. It is extremely well-written & well-researched. The newer, 2nd edition has been updated and includes a large number of actual court cases (edited down and/or summarized to make the relevant points apparent), so that the reader can understand how courts & lay juries will treat police deadly-force cases. Some of the points of law and issues Patrick discusses have carry-over implications for law-abiding civilians caught up in an incident where they are forced to defend themselves with gunfire.
And despite some of the errant info and nonsensical claims made on this thread, many here would benefit from a careful reading of Patrick's book "In Defense of Self," which examines the law, policies and practices involving the use of deadly force by LEOs. It is extremely well-written & well-researched. The newer, 2nd edition has been updated and includes a large number of actual court cases (edited down and/or summarized to make the relevant points apparent), so that the reader can understand how courts & lay juries will treat police deadly-force cases. Some of the points of law and issues Patrick discusses have carry-over implications for law-abiding civilians caught up in an incident where they are forced to defend themselves with gunfire.
Not sure where you get that, but of course not there are many guns that would be more comfortable for a person with smaller hands to use in a serious situation.
Some men have larger hands, so it stands to reason some Alaskan men would have larger hands, also not everyone is a man.
And why do people do this? because they have large grip frames that aren't comfortable.
Well, if one is willing to accept an approximation and leave out the mass of the propellant and the velocity of the gases, one does not need a recoil calculater. Just compare the respective products of the velocities and masses of the projectiles.
Comparing a Cor-Bon +P .45 with a 230 grain bullet at 750 FPS with a Cor-Bon !0MM with a 165 grain bullet at 1,250 FPS shows a recoil impulse for the 10MM that is 20% higher than that of the .45--again, a slight approximation.
The difference in kinetic energy at the muzzle is, of course, much higher. That's the raison d'être of the 10 MM in the first place.
I do not consider 20% to be insignificant. Nor have I ever heard anyone who has third firing .45 ACP rapidly opine that it is one of the more controllable rounds available.
I have a .45 ACP, but it is not may first choice for self defense, except indoors where sound pressure is more important. Recoil is one reason; magazine capacity or handgun size is another; and the fact that the .45 does not offer what I consider to be a material advantage in terms of wounding effectiveness is yet another.
The book also addresses use of force law as it pertains to persons other than sworn officers. Everyone should read it.
I presume that you are again discussing civil liability And again, that's just part of the concern that a defender should consider.
The underlying legal principle is that a defender who harms another out of necessity in a defensive use of force situation will not be held liable for the injury. That necessity is a defense in a civil suit. The same thing applies equally to sworn officers performing their duties.
That, of course, presumes that the defender exercises reasonable care, which will be determined by others.
I believe that, if someone is carrying a .460 Magnum, a 44 Magnum, a .41, or a 10MM, particularly in bear country or while hunting, and is forced to defend himself, and harms an innocent third party in a manner that did not result from negligence, most juries will probably not assess civil damages. That, or course, is not a certainty.
I would not want to face a civil jury with a preponderance of the evidence standard if I had chosen to carry a .460 Magnum in the inner city and had harmed an innocent bystander in a building some distance away. What reasonable person would have strapped on that firearm for self defense downtown?
It would be interesting to see a trial in which a home defender had opened a push-button safe and, having a choice of either a 10MM or a .38 Special, chooses the former, fires, and injures someone in another house. I would not want to be the defendant.
I am a lot less concerned about bullets passing through an intended target than I am about bullets that miss and happen to hit someone else. The issues of reasonable care and immediate reasonable necessity may be less clear, and the defendant must do more than establish reasonable doubt in the minds of the entire jury.
And a tort trial is but one concern. Would anyone really relish the idea of being shielded from liability, perhaps after having been impoverished by the costs of defense, after having killed or injured an innocent child?
I am more concerned about being accosted somehwere else than in my home. A couple of years ago, I stumbled into an obvious robbery attempt that was about to occur. My actions caused the robber to run, but I was ready to intervene with deadly force to save the lives of the proprietors and employees, all friends of mine.
The very first thing I did, after looking for a clear shot, was to think "backstop!". I did not know at the time that Kathy Jackson had already written about the same thing. Fortunately, the robber high-tailed it from the store before gunfire erupted.
At home? Well, the Google map shows me all of the houses around mine in which some innocent might be endangered by bullets passing out from my windows and walls. I keep that in the back of my mind all the time.
I will say this: I would no more choose a firearm that penetrates significantly more than I think I am likely to need because of Attorney Patrick's explanation of the law than I would look for a basis for justifying the use of deadly force if there were any way whatsoever to avoid it, in advance or in the event.
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