Why are Mini 14's so inaccurate?
- Thread starter Lovesbeer99
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slicknickns
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How is the overall reliability of the rifles? Can they hold up in harsh conditions and take a real beating, mud, rain, sand, the works?
1KPerDay
Member
Funny... that's why I wanted one.
lionking
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let me add to my last post,$300 is what I paid for it in '92.Agreed for that price range worth it,when the price starts rising to almost the cost of a Ar,then might as well go with a Ar.But still,I like my Mini.
quote;Great gun for $350. POS for $500.
I like mine and love the lack of extra parts. Handy and small. Perfect for a truck gun in 223 or 7.62x39. Wish they made one in 243 or 308.
I prefer the AR over the mini for any actual hunting type shots, but I'd prefer a mini over a SKS any day and I have both. Just wish the mini cost more like $300. AND had available 20 round mags from the factory, or at least reliable and decent priced aftermarket mags.
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quote;Great gun for $350. POS for $500.
I like mine and love the lack of extra parts. Handy and small. Perfect for a truck gun in 223 or 7.62x39. Wish they made one in 243 or 308.
I prefer the AR over the mini for any actual hunting type shots, but I'd prefer a mini over a SKS any day and I have both. Just wish the mini cost more like $300. AND had available 20 round mags from the factory, or at least reliable and decent priced aftermarket mags.
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I have heard this from several reputable gunsmiths, but again, this is hearsay.
Apparently Ruger runs their bore drilling machines too fast, and while the barrel blank is in a clamp and the bit goes in the one end centered and out the far end centered, it can wander slightly midway through the barrel. Add in that it's a cheaply made overpriced rifle to that mediocre accuracy, and I would rather buy four or five SKSes for the money.
Apparently Ruger runs their bore drilling machines too fast, and while the barrel blank is in a clamp and the bit goes in the one end centered and out the far end centered, it can wander slightly midway through the barrel. Add in that it's a cheaply made overpriced rifle to that mediocre accuracy, and I would rather buy four or five SKSes for the money.
AZ Jeff
Member
A couple of points to mention and clarify here:
1. the Mini-14 was introduced in 1974, as mentioned by others. At that time, the US military was firmly wedded to the M16, and Ruger has no illusions or intentions of having the Mini replace or supplant the M16. In the beginning, they used the following phrase to market the firearm: "the world's most expensive plinker". It's a fitting description.
2. there are TWO versions of the Mini, and they have different characteristics: the Ranch rifle, and the regular model. The Ranch rifle has a VERY CRUDE backup iron sight in the rear, and uses a fixed ejector. As such, it really launches the empty cases out of the action with some vigor. The regular model uses iron sights very similar to that for the M16A1 series rifle, and uses a bump type ejector. Those rifles have very mild ejection, and the sight adjustments are done with a bullet point or punch, like the M16A1.
3. when fed with Ruger factory magazines, the Mini is probably as reliable as any self-loading firearm. The complaints of reliability generally stem from use of questionable aftermarket magazines, because no one wants to pay the rather steep rate that exists for Ruger factory magazines.
4. to the best of my knowledge, I have heard of VERY few Mini's with actual parts breakage. The design is robust, if not terribly accurate.
5. based on everything I have read from all the various Mini owners, I would put the accuracy of a typical unmodified Mini on par with that for a typical SKS, M1 Carbine, or AK, firing equivalent ammo.
My stainless Mini, bought back in 1980, isn't terribly accurate, but for a general knock-about carbine that is pretty much maintenance free, it fits the bill.
I put on a Choate combination flash supressor/military type front sight, and a hooded aperture on the rear to improve the sight picture to more closely match that of an M1/M14. I feed the thing my M193 ball-equivalent reloads all day long, and have put probably 3000 rounds through it flawlessly over the past 25 years.
Is it as accurate as my AR-15 I use in High Power? NO. Is it fun/reliable? YES.
1. the Mini-14 was introduced in 1974, as mentioned by others. At that time, the US military was firmly wedded to the M16, and Ruger has no illusions or intentions of having the Mini replace or supplant the M16. In the beginning, they used the following phrase to market the firearm: "the world's most expensive plinker". It's a fitting description.
2. there are TWO versions of the Mini, and they have different characteristics: the Ranch rifle, and the regular model. The Ranch rifle has a VERY CRUDE backup iron sight in the rear, and uses a fixed ejector. As such, it really launches the empty cases out of the action with some vigor. The regular model uses iron sights very similar to that for the M16A1 series rifle, and uses a bump type ejector. Those rifles have very mild ejection, and the sight adjustments are done with a bullet point or punch, like the M16A1.
3. when fed with Ruger factory magazines, the Mini is probably as reliable as any self-loading firearm. The complaints of reliability generally stem from use of questionable aftermarket magazines, because no one wants to pay the rather steep rate that exists for Ruger factory magazines.
4. to the best of my knowledge, I have heard of VERY few Mini's with actual parts breakage. The design is robust, if not terribly accurate.
5. based on everything I have read from all the various Mini owners, I would put the accuracy of a typical unmodified Mini on par with that for a typical SKS, M1 Carbine, or AK, firing equivalent ammo.
My stainless Mini, bought back in 1980, isn't terribly accurate, but for a general knock-about carbine that is pretty much maintenance free, it fits the bill.
I put on a Choate combination flash supressor/military type front sight, and a hooded aperture on the rear to improve the sight picture to more closely match that of an M1/M14. I feed the thing my M193 ball-equivalent reloads all day long, and have put probably 3000 rounds through it flawlessly over the past 25 years.
Is it as accurate as my AR-15 I use in High Power? NO. Is it fun/reliable? YES.
El Tejon
Member
The alleged "robustness" of the Mini-14 has not shown itself at gun school. I have been in several carbine classes where fellow students show up with Mini-14s; they do not last the class. THE Pat Rogers, who offers his wisdom here sometimes, has oberseved the same and he has taught many, many classes.
In the mid-70s the Mini-14 was evaluated by other nations' militrees. It was deemed unsuitable as it lacked reliability. However, it was picked up by several police forces including the RUC (which because of the trouble in Northern Ireland received the most press which increased its popularity).
It was designed as a range toy (Bill Ruger called it the "world's most expensive plinker") and should be relegated to merely that. It is inaccurate as it is a toy and as such does not need to be inherently accurate.
In the mid-70s the Mini-14 was evaluated by other nations' militrees. It was deemed unsuitable as it lacked reliability. However, it was picked up by several police forces including the RUC (which because of the trouble in Northern Ireland received the most press which increased its popularity).
It was designed as a range toy (Bill Ruger called it the "world's most expensive plinker") and should be relegated to merely that. It is inaccurate as it is a toy and as such does not need to be inherently accurate.
AZ Jeff
Member
El T---I don't doubt your reports that the Mini doesn't hold up in serious training sessions, but out of curiousity, what's the typical failure modes for the Mini under these conditions?
And this leads me to next ask---is your average Joe likely to see these failures in his use of a Mini, given that 95% of all shooters will never subject their firearms to the type of rigor that a serious training session demands?
And this leads me to next ask---is your average Joe likely to see these failures in his use of a Mini, given that 95% of all shooters will never subject their firearms to the type of rigor that a serious training session demands?
I bought a Mini-14 in 1979 for 10% off of $179. It has a wood handguard. It is the only one I have shot, and it is almost 30 years old, so I can't extrapolate the results and say all are like mine.
First off, I don't own "range toys", I own hunting rifles, and a lot of jackrabbits were killed with that gun, both on the set and on the move, and a few other critters besides. With good handloads, it is 3 MOA with three shot groups all the time with the factory sights. I wish it came with better sights, like just copy the Garand's.
It is more accurate than my Chinese or Yugo SKS, but the SKS rifles aren't being fed near the same quality ammo. I did see a Russian SKS that would beat it, but that rifle would have beaten a lot of ARs and Garands too. I wouldn't trade that Mini-14 for five SKS rifles, because I can only carry one rifle at a time jackrabbit hunting, so the other four wouldn't gain me any advantage.
I don't know about the heating problems, since I never shot more than 2-3 times at any jack before it went over the hill or died. Sometimes five shots if a couple of rabbits bolted at once. Never had any reliability problems, but I only used Ruger magazines.
First off, I don't own "range toys", I own hunting rifles, and a lot of jackrabbits were killed with that gun, both on the set and on the move, and a few other critters besides. With good handloads, it is 3 MOA with three shot groups all the time with the factory sights. I wish it came with better sights, like just copy the Garand's.
It is more accurate than my Chinese or Yugo SKS, but the SKS rifles aren't being fed near the same quality ammo. I did see a Russian SKS that would beat it, but that rifle would have beaten a lot of ARs and Garands too. I wouldn't trade that Mini-14 for five SKS rifles, because I can only carry one rifle at a time jackrabbit hunting, so the other four wouldn't gain me any advantage.
I don't know about the heating problems, since I never shot more than 2-3 times at any jack before it went over the hill or died. Sometimes five shots if a couple of rabbits bolted at once. Never had any reliability problems, but I only used Ruger magazines.
Neo-Luddite
Member
It's a good little gun in a popular caliber. Mags are pretty cheap, too.
It used to be they sold for 1/2 the cost of an AR--now, AR's have come waayyy down, and the Sturm Ruger (you don't need more than 10 rounds) folks believe their little gun now can drive tacks and cost almost as much as a good entry level AR. Get the AR if you want one.
If I didn't own one since well before that MO MO opened his pie hole and let the world know he was a %^&*( no goodnick money grubber, I wouldn't.
I don't bed down with whores and never recomend that anyone should.
I'm sure that there are lots of good folks at Ruger, but the Mini should be on the forever scorned list. They make nice pistols.
Buy one second hand. Or get a DCM m1 Carbine made by good people.
I'll shut up now. At least no one suggested to google 'ruger XGI' and learn that sidebar
Oh, I guess I just did....
It used to be they sold for 1/2 the cost of an AR--now, AR's have come waayyy down, and the Sturm Ruger (you don't need more than 10 rounds) folks believe their little gun now can drive tacks and cost almost as much as a good entry level AR. Get the AR if you want one.
If I didn't own one since well before that MO MO opened his pie hole and let the world know he was a %^&*( no goodnick money grubber, I wouldn't.
I don't bed down with whores and never recomend that anyone should.
I'm sure that there are lots of good folks at Ruger, but the Mini should be on the forever scorned list. They make nice pistols.
Buy one second hand. Or get a DCM m1 Carbine made by good people.
I'll shut up now. At least no one suggested to google 'ruger XGI' and learn that sidebar
Oh, I guess I just did....El Tejon
Member
AZ, couldn't tell you exactly, just know that one minute the person with the Mini is there, next he is running to the car for the back up gun or to get a buddy's back up AR. Could be bad mags, but you would think they would just pitch the wobbly mag and go on.
I've seen it happen more than once and have had several instructors tell me the same thing. However, friend of mine who is a Detroit cop said he did see a Mini-14, tricked by Chief AJ over in Illinois, make it all the way through a 3 day Awerbuck class. So, maybe even though Ruger designed the platform as a toy, the weapon can be tuned into a solid performer. Don't know--I'm the last guy to testify about gunsmithing issues.
I've seen it happen more than once and have had several instructors tell me the same thing. However, friend of mine who is a Detroit cop said he did see a Mini-14, tricked by Chief AJ over in Illinois, make it all the way through a 3 day Awerbuck class. So, maybe even though Ruger designed the platform as a toy, the weapon can be tuned into a solid performer. Don't know--I'm the last guy to testify about gunsmithing issues.
Lagomorph
Member
I'm no expert, but I've got one of the re-tooled Mini 14's (post 580 SN) and haven't had a problem keeping it around 3 MOA @ 100yd offhand at all. Sure, I'm not shooting 200 rounds per session, but I didn't buy the gun for that. I bought it to be a reliable (100% with factory mags) gun for fun and coyotes. I don't regret the purchase at all.
That being said, my next gun will be an AR.
That being said, my next gun will be an AR.
battlehatch
Member
I had a mini 30 for a week or so. Traded a Ruger P944D .40s&w for it, STUPID. I was more accurate hitting targets with my BRASS than I was with the rifle. At the local range, I usually had a friend stand about 30 feet to my right to shag hot brass and keep it from hitting other shooters or their equipment. I started thinking about rebarreling it and doing this or that, but it isn't worth it IMO. On top of that, mine wouldn't shoot surplus ammo, which makes it'd doubly worthless IMO. Good looking gun, feels good, sounds good, shoots like poop. Just recently I saw a guy at the range with a Hogue stocked mini, he claimed it was super accurate. He was able to put 80% of his shots in a computer monitor... 60 yds away. He seemed to shoot well with his other guns though.
Sniper X
Member
4Z, thank your son for us for his service, and ringing the 20in gong at 300 with a Mini14 is very good, considering they are inaccurate. Heck, at the range with a quiet wind I can ring the 9in gong at 300 with my M4 everytime at 1 shot per second, but I too have a scope. Shoot, I have blown people away at the range by ringing it a few times out of 10 with my P22 pistol!
wanderinwalker
Member
Seriously, a 14-17" computer monitor from 60 yards and ONLY 80% hit? I'd wonder what this blokes definition of "super-accurate" is? And a 20" gong from 300 is pretty good, hasty, with a Mini, but that's a 6.33 MOA target. No offense intended to anybody.
I got to work with a Mini-30 a couple of months back, one of the new models, scoped even. Not mine, a coworkers. At 50 yards, with Remington ammo, it would do about 3 inches (benched), with either me or him on the trigger. Didn't matter if we fired it fast, slow, moderately, walked to the target between strings or just shot. 3 inches and that was it. Needless to say, I was NOT impressed.
I've though of getting a Mini-14 as a "fun" gun, lightweight, moderate power, reliable, short. But I have a Marlin .44 Magnum that fits all of that AND shoots better than that Mini-30, so it's a hard sell.
And yes, my match AR will drill little tiny groups at least out to 300 yards, and is pretty reliable too. Too bad it weighs 13 pounds.
Wasn't the Mini popular as a police gun for a while, especially in prisons? Just recently I was watching a show on Illinois prisons and the armory had a rack of Mini-14's and a rack of 870's.
Anyway, the Mini strikes me as a gun that was produced to be "good enough". A rifle that was designed when AR-15 type rifles were uncommon oustide the military that was "good enough" to replace the shotgun in the trunk of the patrol car, to give an officer more shots before a reload, and some more range too. It is "good enough" for a corrections officer in a guard tower over the prison yard, i.e. accurate enough to put a couple of rounds in the chest of a convict in the middle of a riot.
It seems to me that civillian use was a secondary consideration, but the gun was "good enough" for a time when AR-15's weren't on the shelves of every gun shop, when the design wasn't produced by a dozen companies. Remember, the only real comparison to it at that time was the M1 Carbine. The gun can roll a tin can and put a coyote down at 100 yards, and it is a very compact and handy package. It slides right behind the bench of a pickup.
The biggest deficiency of the gun is that as time has progressed and more semi-auto centerfires have become available it hasn't been updated to meet current expectations. The combination of production costs rising for the Mini and costs falling for alternatives has left it a bit behind.
Personally, I think that the Mini could be updated to meet today's standards (put on a thicker barrel, maybe some modification of the gas system) and not cost much more. What I think is stopping such progress is that it would require Ruger to retool.
It should be interesting to see how this target Mini pans out, and if it is an improvement will the upgrades trickle down to the other Mini variants.
EDIT: I also think part of the disappointment with the Mini is the fact that people have certain expectations about the .223 cartridge. I mean, outside military style firearms the .223 is marketed as a varminting round.
Look at the Ruger Deerfield carbine as a counterpoint. Owners seem to really like these guns, and there is a general positive opinion of them among non-owners. The Deerfield is basically a Mini re-engineered to use the .44 Magnum, and I don't believe it is noted for its accuracy. But because the .44 Mag is in a rifle is viewed as a 100-150 yard deer cartridge, people aren't complaining if the gun is getting four or five inch groups. When you have the same groups from a cartridge marketed to perform to 300 yards you have a very different opinion of the gun.
I think that the Mini's marketing kind of sets it up to fail. It is billed as a "Ranch Rifle", which most people interpret as a gun that will perform any task in a rural area. In reality the Mini is more limited in its capabilities. It is good for plinking, targets of opportunity within 100 yards or so, and for defense around the house. It shouldn't be expected to punch clover-leaves in paper, blast varmints 300 yards out, harvest deer (though some people do so), or fight battles.
Really it is just an entertaining little carbine with a bit of utility to your rural dweller.
Anyway, the Mini strikes me as a gun that was produced to be "good enough". A rifle that was designed when AR-15 type rifles were uncommon oustide the military that was "good enough" to replace the shotgun in the trunk of the patrol car, to give an officer more shots before a reload, and some more range too. It is "good enough" for a corrections officer in a guard tower over the prison yard, i.e. accurate enough to put a couple of rounds in the chest of a convict in the middle of a riot.
It seems to me that civillian use was a secondary consideration, but the gun was "good enough" for a time when AR-15's weren't on the shelves of every gun shop, when the design wasn't produced by a dozen companies. Remember, the only real comparison to it at that time was the M1 Carbine. The gun can roll a tin can and put a coyote down at 100 yards, and it is a very compact and handy package. It slides right behind the bench of a pickup.
The biggest deficiency of the gun is that as time has progressed and more semi-auto centerfires have become available it hasn't been updated to meet current expectations. The combination of production costs rising for the Mini and costs falling for alternatives has left it a bit behind.
Personally, I think that the Mini could be updated to meet today's standards (put on a thicker barrel, maybe some modification of the gas system) and not cost much more. What I think is stopping such progress is that it would require Ruger to retool.
It should be interesting to see how this target Mini pans out, and if it is an improvement will the upgrades trickle down to the other Mini variants.
EDIT: I also think part of the disappointment with the Mini is the fact that people have certain expectations about the .223 cartridge. I mean, outside military style firearms the .223 is marketed as a varminting round.
Look at the Ruger Deerfield carbine as a counterpoint. Owners seem to really like these guns, and there is a general positive opinion of them among non-owners. The Deerfield is basically a Mini re-engineered to use the .44 Magnum, and I don't believe it is noted for its accuracy. But because the .44 Mag is in a rifle is viewed as a 100-150 yard deer cartridge, people aren't complaining if the gun is getting four or five inch groups. When you have the same groups from a cartridge marketed to perform to 300 yards you have a very different opinion of the gun.
I think that the Mini's marketing kind of sets it up to fail. It is billed as a "Ranch Rifle", which most people interpret as a gun that will perform any task in a rural area. In reality the Mini is more limited in its capabilities. It is good for plinking, targets of opportunity within 100 yards or so, and for defense around the house. It shouldn't be expected to punch clover-leaves in paper, blast varmints 300 yards out, harvest deer (though some people do so), or fight battles.
Really it is just an entertaining little carbine with a bit of utility to your rural dweller.
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blackhawk2000
member
Because accuracy wasn't in the contract Bill Ruger signed with the devil.
I thought that once Bill Ruger Jr. was out at Sturm, Ruger as Chairman of the Board and CEO, it would be about two weeks and every type of high capacity magazine would have been for sale on the website...
...I guess Bill Sr.'s ghost still stalks the halls...
...I guess Bill Sr.'s ghost still stalks the halls...
_N4Z_
Member
Heh, well to all of those who have pointed out the fact that 21 (inches) / 300 (yards) = around 7 (MOA).....
You would be correct, but allow me to clarify this particular instance with a bit more detail...
We walked the 300 yards back out there after the Mini ran out. The eight shiny pings in that steel gong were all within 8 inches of one another.
I was shooting paper with my M39 at 300, and that gong had no new impact marks on it when I was setting up my targets.
So that's about 2.66 MOA from a hot barreled Mini30. Not too shabby ladies. Not hotrod AR grade, but not shabby either.
You would be correct, but allow me to clarify this particular instance with a bit more detail...
We walked the 300 yards back out there after the Mini ran out. The eight shiny pings in that steel gong were all within 8 inches of one another.
I was shooting paper with my M39 at 300, and that gong had no new impact marks on it when I was setting up my targets.
So that's about 2.66 MOA from a hot barreled Mini30. Not too shabby ladies. Not hotrod AR grade, but not shabby either.
Lovesbeer99
Member
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- Sep 27, 2006
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- 1,413
So I was very interested but now I'm a little turned off. If I did buy would it would have to be a steal and I'm still trying to understand the differnces between the series numbers that I've seen. I like to shot a lot and a gun that heats up and strings shot easily is not for me. I have found places to accurize a Mini, but it's not cheap, or even seam worth it unless you're a Mini enthusiest.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Lovesbeer99
Thanks for all the feedback.
Lovesbeer99
I have been in love with my Mini-14 since 1983. It is an excellent short range carbine. A lot of people say that the Mini-14 is inaccurate, nooooo... it's just not as accurate as other rifles out there. Kinda like..."your not stupid, your just not as smart as the other boys"
For me and my Mini, any critter with fur or fangs (Field mouse excluded) is pretty much toast with 1 shot out to around 100 yards, anything beyond that is a little hit or miss. (pun intended) Just don't expect more than the gun is designed for.
RH
For me and my Mini, any critter with fur or fangs (Field mouse excluded) is pretty much toast with 1 shot out to around 100 yards, anything beyond that is a little hit or miss. (pun intended) Just don't expect more than the gun is designed for.
RH
Zullo74
member
They did make one in .308 Win. They called it the X-GI if I recall correctly. It didn't work so it was cancelled pretty quick. Read about it here......
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2899.htm
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2899.htm
Neo-Luddite
Member
Oh, if the XGI had worked out they would have had an underperforming bastard m-14 that everyone would be ticked about.
Really, if Ruger made a FORGED mini (or anything) they would have a much better gun.
Updating it might be cool. Or maybe, sell one to us poor civies in park w/ a flash hider on it. Maybe a bayonet lug, too.
I paid $340 for mine 17 years ago. They want $600 and up nowadays but you're in range of many AR's at that point.
I'm a Garand person so the design appeals to me.
Really, if Ruger made a FORGED mini (or anything) they would have a much better gun.
Updating it might be cool. Or maybe, sell one to us poor civies in park w/ a flash hider on it. Maybe a bayonet lug, too.
I paid $340 for mine 17 years ago. They want $600 and up nowadays but you're in range of many AR's at that point.
I'm a Garand person so the design appeals to me.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
That is very, very good for a mini. That one is definitely a keeper.
I don't doubt that a substantial percentage of mini's are indeed reasonably accurate out of the box. It's just that if someone goes to buy one, it's playing the lottery as to whether they'll get a good one like yours, or a not-so-good one like my 5.5-MOA Ranch Rifle. The average mini isn't that good, accuracy-wise.
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