Why don't they fight back?

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When he was sitting in the chair, his hands were in front of him, even with your feet tied, you can make a jump and rip out someones neck with teeth IMHO.

As for not knowing that you're in danger, you'd have to have your head in the sand.

For one thing, remember the four contractors? That would be foremost in my mind. Remember Daniel Pearl? Same MO with the video camara and everything.

I've noticed that anytime they start to video tape something, it ends in murder.

I don't know, I wasn't there, but I think that I would have tried something.

M.
 
Ktulu

...but I will not be taken advantage of by those people. Of course this is very easy for me to say sitting at my computer, relatively, safe in beautiful Michigan.
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My brother lives in Michigan, and from what I understand the state is a magnet for Islamic fundamentalists.

I remember hearing of someone who was arrested for smuggling cigarettes from North Carolina to Michigan, and using the procedes from the black market sales to donate to al-Qaeda.

They're closer than you think, just biding their time.
 
Leatherneck,
I believe this is the verse you were refering to
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
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Ironic to see so many people (who would train with and carry a deadly weapon in order to take responsibility for their own self-protection) that have decided to "hope for the best" when faced with impossible odds.
I must be reading something wrong.
 
Why are there still two bricks stacked on top of each other in Iraq? Why are there any adult Iraqi males left alive? Why is the U.S. military still in Iraq if they are not allowed to win the war? Haven't we learned anything from history?
 
Ironic to see so many people (who would train with and carry a deadly weapon in order to take responsibility for their own self-protection) that have decided to "hope for the best" when faced with impossible odds
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Outside of the military where are there any training facilities to teach you how to be helplessly tortured into submission, yet still hold on to the slim chance that you may survive the ecounter, and if you don't then to die in a manner that doesn't offend the armchair warriors back home that think you should have done something differently.

Maybe some of you more vocal macho men could share your hostage experience with us.

This was not a soldier or one of the "mercenaries" that we have been hearing about this was a idealistic kid who thought he could go to Iraq and drop off a resume
 
I read an article today that said there was an 11 hour gap on the video camera's clock.My guess is this was rehearsed many times and the victim probably thought it was another dry run.None of us know what happened to that man in those 11 hours.I worked in an institution with a no hostage policy for 20 yrs.I had plenty of time to think about what I would do when TSHTF.I always figured I would not be a hostage! The truth is none of us truly knows until the time comes for us to act.
 
joab, I feel bad for the "idealistic kid" and his family, first and foremost. It’s a damn shame that he died.

Secondly, I know for a fact that before any military personnel, contractor, or other civilian worker is allowed into such an area they are given a signed briefing and thoroughly understand the dangers they may face. It's called a "Force Protection / Antiterrorism Briefing", provided by the Battalion S2 (Security shop) or civilian equivalent. This is part of my job. (No, I’m not in Baghdad. I’m in Germany.)

We don’t do such briefings only once, either. (for example, upon entry into the theatre of operations or occasions of suspicious contact) We’re required to do updates with the most current information that the protective posture and tactical/logistical environment may allow. (Weekly, at minimum, Daily, at best.) Do you honestly think that Mr. Berg thought he was in Kansas?

You sign up with a contractor to do a job that pays 100k or more per year, in some cases tax-free, you take your chances. We make sure that they’re not blind chances, though. Don’t make it sound like guys like Mr. Berg are naive children.


My beef is with those of you back home that have options that my family, myself, and my friends don't have here. By your statements it appears that despite having taken steps to turn those options into skills, many have pre-decided not to apply them in less-than-ideal situations. I'm left with the impression that many won't fight unless they're sure that they can win. If such is the case, then you've planned to fail. Bad tactics.

But, as I said, perhaps I misunderstood something. Regardless, I wish you all the best.
 
Do no tgo if you can not be armed!
You might not be able to be armed while you aer on base or at work as a contractor but if you go off base you should be able to have a weapon.
I would hope so or why be a sitting duck!

alot of people that aer being swipped are letting themselfs get it done to them. Now thats not counting the ones that are getting ambushed in convoys that aer supossed to be protected.

If they just snatch you off the street or stop your car or that guy that let himself be arrested by the iraqi police. come on now.

If someone other that a usgi personel stops me then I start shooting.
its hard to explain but if you have a couple iraqi police show up at your door without us military folks shoot first.

Would you let someone just walk up to you in a dark parking lot here, you might not shoot but you sure as hell are going to tell them to stop before they get close to you.

There should be no way anyone should get close enough to grab you without a fight even in this country and over there man thats crazy.
 
1. Obey, they will follow the rules and you will survive. That is the official doctrine.
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I am not sure who provided your training but they must have missed Article III of the Code of Conduct:

If I am capture, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Your 1SG had it right.
 
You sign up with a contractor to do a job that pays 100k or more per year, in some cases tax-free, you take your chances. We make sure that they’re not blind chances, though. Don’t make it sound like guys like Mr. Berg are naive children.
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Just because you tell them doesn't mean they understand.

How many times do you tell a child that fire is hot and how many children burn themselves because they just don't comprehend how hot? Adults can be just as naive as children, no matter how well you explain things to them.

He might well have thought that the dangers were similar but a little worse than those in most US inner cities.

He might have believed that the majority of the Iraqi people would be friendly and, as per CNN, the violence was in the hands of a few "insurgents".

He might have felt that as a civilian engaged in reconstruction he'd be safe.

He might have known all the dangers and still decided to take his chances. At 25 I too believed I was immortal and invulnerable. And I have the scars to prove that I was somewhat mistaken in the latter.

I've had my run-ins with Islamic fundamentalists in the past. It was bloody. About 6 months ago a friend was discussing a job offer she'd received to go to Kuwait. She would have been taking a team with her and wanted me and my partner to go along (my partner's former USMC and I lived in the MidEast for several years, plus we know her business). Had this come off we'd have also been in Baghdad and Kabul.

It took a couple of evenings and a lot of beer before we convinced her that it was an assignment that only someone with a deathwish would consider for more than about 5 minutes.

Us: "Will we be armed"
Her: "Officially no."
Us: "You've gotta be joking! That's tantamount to suicide!!"
 
armed in Iraq

Us: "Will we be armed"
Her: "Officially no."
Us: "You've gotta be joking! That's tantamount to suicide!!"
_______________________________

There was article recently online, by Mark Bowden I think (who wrote Blackhawk down) who went into Iraq with a private security firm to see what it was like. He said that once they got across the border from Jordan into Iraq, the bought guns since the official US policy was that no private citizens could bring in their own weapons. Makes it tough to defend youself. I don't know what I would do in this situation. I have 4 yrs in the Army in the 70's, but no combat time. I do think most people would not resist and hope for the best. I like to think that I would fight, but I don't really know, at least until it happens.

What's interesting to me is the media's choice to show the Iraq prisoner pictures over and over, but just gloss over what really happened to this poor guy. they don't want to show pictures that would piss off Americans against Arabs, but they have no qualms showing pictures to make American look bad. This kind of bias just has to go - it's wrong and leaves Americans with the wrong impression of what's happening over there. I don't like what those guards did, but it is minor compared to what Sadam did to his own people, and Al Queda did in cutting this guy's head off.
 
Its my understanding that under the rules of the Geneva Convention that if you are a POW that you are not permitted to kill the guards and captors in an effort to escape. Could be wrong but I remember that from infantry training.
 
Its my understanding that under the rules of the Geneva Convention that if you are a POW that you are not permitted to kill the guards and captors in an effort to escape. Could be wrong but I remember that from infantry training.
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I don't remember anything like that, and it sure conflictd with:

If I am capture, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
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Even if true, why would any captive care?
 
I agree with you, I just could have sworn my drill sergeant saying that and me sitting there in disbelief. If I were a captive I certainly would resist by all means available.
 
I believe it was Rudyard Kipling who emphasized the need, when fighting in the middle East, to always reserve one round for the end. Avoid capture at all costs.
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I believe the saying goes, "If you find yourself on the Afghan plains, roll over on your rifle and blow out your brains."
 
Its my understanding that under the rules of the Geneva Convention that if you are a POW that you are not permitted to kill the guards and captors in an effort to escape. Could be wrong but I remember that from infantry training.
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ROTFLMAO

"Gee, I'd REALLY like to escape from my al-Qaida captors, but I better check my rule book first!"

Are al-Qaida members even subject to the Geneva Convention?
 
I was listening to the Sean Hannity Show and he played (after giving a warning for moms with kids and such) the tape of Mr Berg's murder. I was in my car at the time so I pulled over becauseI knew it may have a dramatic effect on me. I'm glad I did, because it was horrific; I felt so helpless that I couldnt do anything about it and at the same time I was shaking with rage that anyone would not only do such a thing, but make a show of it. I dont mind admitting that it drove me to tears. The poor guy screamed horribly for about 30 seconds, I couldnt imagine seeing it.
 
Hey Diggler, like I said, I would not care about the Geneva convention for a minute, Im just repeating what I couldve sworn one of my drill sergeants said.
 
Diggler, Dearborn Michigan (immediately west of Detroit) has a large population of people of Middle Eastern descent. Just about every gas station and party store in the metro Detroit area are owned by middle eastern born Americans. The overwhelming majority of them are peaceful Americans trying to live the American dream just like you and me.

I'm more concerned about retaliation violence then anything else. If there is an attack here, somewhere else in the states, or more Bergs, I fear many innocent people could suffer the backlash.
 
Maybe some of you more vocal macho men could share your hostage experience with us.
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Joab, didn't your mother tell you not to go with strangers? What is especially true for women and children still holds true for grown men. Don't let someone take you away. Nothing good can come of it.

That's all the experience I need.
 
The overwhelming majority of them are peaceful Americans trying to live the American dream just like you and me.
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I understand that. It's the underwhelming minority that you have to watch out for. Nowhere did I say that most of them were extremists. I would guess that the big reason that the area is such a magnet is that there is a large population of decent Arab-descent folk there that extremists can blend in with and carry out their plotting.
 
Nowhere did I say that most of them were extremists.
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It was not my intention to insinuate that you did. I was merely illustrating my experience. Maybe they are all extremists and really good at hiding it, but I doubt it. :scrutiny:

Yes, you're right. Terrorists can blend in here very well and with the crazy tax on cigarettes, among other things, there is plenty of opportunity to raise funds.
 
Mostly Harmless-

My point is that a list of maybes will get you killed. Our information is as black and white as possible; what an individual choses to do with it is up to them.
More directly, it would appear that your questions have been answered by a very unfortunate outcome. Now we have an opportunity to learn from anothers' mistakes. Please don't waste it.
 
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