why hot loads?

[gamestalker]

What Ranger335V said is so true, in that, with few exceptions the degree of gained velocity beyond a certain point becomes so small that the only real noticable accomplishment is unnecessary wasting of powder, and loss of potential accuracy, not to mention an early grave for the poor firearm. This is the primary reason as a reloader why I use a load developement process, or work up, as it were, to find that sweet spot for that specific frearm.

GS

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought just about all factory ammo in all calibers was loaded at or very close to max pressures. I know this is the case in 44 Mag, but 10mm may be different; never shot any.

I have to disagree most factory ammo is loaded to Max pressures. Sure, designer ammo like Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon are loaded up near the pressure limits but mainstream companies like Winchester, Remington, Federal and the like load nowhere near the limits. The loads they do produce that are near max pressures they mark +P and charge you more for giving you what they should in the first place.

IMO the 10mm is on death roe because it's not loaded to it's full potential. The original loads were much "hotter" than any factory ammo on the market today. If you want real 10mm ammo you have to load it yourself. For the most part the same is true for the 44 Magnum although the 44 Magnum is probably loaded closer to it's potential than the 10mm is.

 

[41 Mag]

I will have to go along with ArchAngelCD on this as well. When I started loading for my revolvers some 30yrs back, most of the factory loads I got were not up to the same potential as what the loads listed in manuals would achieve. That was one of the main reason I began to load my own.

There were a couple of companies like Winchester who DID load certain boxes up to the full potential, and Remington did so as well with some calibers but in only one or two loads. But overall most were sadly lacking.

One only needs to work up to the H-110 loads listed in most manuals to find out the full differences between factory and the true potential of a .357 or 41,44 magnum rounds. As for the 10mm, yep the original loads hitting 1300+ fps with 170 and 1200fps with 200gr bullets are something to touch off. I shoot them in my 10mm regularly with an ample load of AA-9 under 180gr Gold Dots. That said I have an extra 2" of barrel on mine so hitting the same velocities with similar loads isn't quite as hard.

With more and more of my loads however I am reverting back to medium powered handloads basically due to moving to cast bullets. I have found as many before that with proper alloy the accuracy and performance is as good or in most cases better than when I use jacketed loads. This ins't to say I still do not have plenty of the top end loads and can easily go from one to the other, but I am playing with new toys now and the need for me to drive them fast simply isn't there.

 

[ranger335v]

Back at my old gun club in '65 a self deluded new young hot shot got into reloading. I was present when he asked the club's premier old hand for tips on finding the hottest possible reloads. Ol' dude looked at him without expression and carefully said, "Start low and work up in half grain increments until the gun blows, then back off a full grain"; then he just walked away from the dummy. Now I'M the old dude; guess what I say...

 

[Fishslayer]

In many or most pistol loads, the hottest possible load is NOT the most accurate load.

This has been my experience. My "Big Dog" .357 Magnum load is comfortably below maximum but makes a satisfying boom & flash with a manly kick to it while being plenty accurate in everything I've shot it out of.

 

[NWcityguy2]

If you don't have equipment to measure chamber pressure you are just speculating on what factory ammo is and isn't. There is no accurate way to use recoil or velocity as a measuring stick when you are dealing with an unknown powder. A 90% load of 2400 or AA#9 will recoil more than a 100% load of W231 in .357 magnum. And saying that pressure does not equal recoil or velocity is just sticking to the basics. I could mention that there are economical reasons to use faster powders which don't deliver full velocity as well, but I won't .

 

[GP100man]

I`ve not shot a factory round of centerfire ammo in 15yrs so I have little to say `bout saami standards except the equipment they use now is way ahead of the ole copper crusher method .!!!

I hand load to make shooting more comfortable for me & my guns

Hotrodding loads is a phase we all go thru , most survive , but not all firearms !

 

[Clark]

There is the hot car analogy.
Probably driving fast is even better.
Climbing mountains would be another.
My favorite is handling poisonous snakes.

In all cases, I think there is a high degree of correlation to testosterone.

Stuart Smiley, Mr Rogers, and Rahm Emanuel would NOT load hot.

Hank Williams Jr, Brock Samson, and Ted Nugent would load hot.

 

[Hondo 60]

Hot loads, driving very fast, same reasons.

Just cuz they can.

 

[Fat_46]

Sometimes I get the best accuracy by loading a bit above posted maximums. My Howa in 204 seems to really shine with a few 10th of a grain more than max. And my 260 prairie dog gun REALLY loves 1.2 grains more than max. That being said, there have been zero pressure related signs that I'm pushing the limits of the gun. Primers look good, bolt lift is normal, and I've loaded some of these cases 5 times without any cracking.

Start with published data, ladder test, and watch for the signs. If your gun shoots it well, and you don't see any issues, let 'er buck.

 

[NWcityguy2]

There is no magic about getting accuracy "just below max load". Max load changes over time (as do some powders), is different from manual to manual and yeilds different pressures in different chambers, using different primers, different amounts of crimp and OALs.

 

[ranger335v]

"There is no magic about getting accuracy "just below max load"."

That's true, it's just another bit of 'conventional wisdom' BS. When I can't obtain the accuracy I want in the right velocity range for my cartridge I change powders.

 

[Ky Larry]

Darwin Award Competition.

 

[Clark]

Ky Larry

Darwin Award Competition.

Wimpy loads mean only ~ 10% reduction in range.
That is hardly enough to weed out all the wimpy loaders from the gene pool.

 

[Bovice]

To some, loading hot means loading to full spec.

If you aren't loading 10mm to true 10mm specs, you might as well shoot .40S&W because it's cheaper.

 

[ranger335v]

Everyone to his own definitions but matching SAAMI specifications seems 'normal' to me so a hot charge would be something done with the goal of exceeding normal.

 

[CraigC]

Sometimes it has nothing to do with testosterone, compensating for your deficient manhood, thrill seeking, proving Darwin right or any of the other crap that has been posted. Sometimes what you want is to explore the potential of a cartridge unfairly hindered with a low pressure limit. Like the 8x57, .32-20, .38-40, .44-40, .44Spl and .45Colt. Because personally, I would just rather hunt varmints and small game with a wonderful Browning 53 .32-20 than a new Savage .22Hornet and handloading beyond standard pressures allows me to do this.

The .44Spl in a wonderful little 37oz custom mid-frame Ruger flat-top is usually all I need and more.

Same for the .38-40 and .44-40 in a Winchester 1892.

Or the .45Colt in a large frame Ruger, custom five-shot or Freedom Arms 83.

Or virtually any 8x57JS.

None of which are equivalent to driving fast because the data is available and it is well proven. Some are just afraid to stray from the herd without their momma there to wipe their chin.

 

[buck460XVR]

Some are just afraid to stray from the herd without their momma there to wipe their chin.

Could be because many that feel the need to stray from the herd end up dead. Especially the young and inexperienced.

I consider anything "hot", as above the normal specs. This applies not only to ammo but cars and motorcycles. Anything within SAAMI specs would not be "hot" in my opinion. I remember back in the seventies when folks "hot-rodded" VW Beetles and Corvairs. Put turbos on them, bored them and put big fat tires on them. Revved their engines at stop and go lights and challenged Pinto and Gremlin drivers to a race. Altho they were a little faster, they were still VW Beetles and Corvairs. Just like some folks that feel the need to "hot-rod" their ammo to make a firearm they feel is inadequate into something it is not. While making the most outta what you have is prudent, trying to make a VW Beetle into a Porsch ain't gonna happen.

 

[35 Whelen]

Overloading is unnecessary and dangerous. I have a friend who loaded his 22-250 so hot the bullets burned up before getting to the 100 yard target. That is rediculous.

Loading to the listed max is ok if you work up to it. All guns are not made equal, so use ultimate caution when going hot. Your vision or life may depend on it.

Your friend didn't necessarily load his 22-250 too hot, but likely he used the wrong bullets. Most bullet manufacturers make .22 caliber bullets with thin jackets that are designed to give explosive expansion in "slower" .22 caliber rifles such as the .222 Rem., .223, etc. (Sierra Blitz, et al). These bullets will vaporize at "normal" 22-250 velocities, 220 Swift velocities, etc. I've run .22 caliber bullets well over 4000 fps in my 220 Swift and they held together fine.

Some people feel they need to always get the last fps out of their handloads; I used to be one of those people until I realized that in the real world of hunting a shooting an extra 100-200 fps doesn't make much difference.

I still sometimes work up max loads though. For examaple I recently acquired a couple of Uberti .44 Specials and have been piddling with a 250 gr. SWC at a little over 1100 fps because I just like to know what the cartridge/pistol combo is capable of. MY every day carry load is the same bullet running a little over 800 fps.

35W

 

[CraigC]

Could be because many that feel the need to stray from the herd end up dead.

I'm not talking about wandering around in the dark. SAAMI is not a God-like, omnipotent entity. There are other sources of well-proven information and I should not have to be telling you this.

 

[35 Whelen]

I'm not talking about wandering around in the dark. SAAMI is not a God-like, omnipotent entity. There are other sources of well-proven information and I should not have to be telling you this.

^^^^^ This.

I swear, todays handloaders have become a community of fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worryworts afraid to try anything that hasn't already been proven.

If you're happy with your under maximum handloads, excellent, I'm happy for you. But if someone wants to experiment with theirs, within reason, I applaud them.

I'd bet the farm that the same folks who chastise handloaders for experimenting on the fringe, think NOTHING of driving a 5000 lb. vehicle 70 mph while talking or worse yet texting on their phones. Guess which is most likely to get you AND someone else killed?

35W

 

[CraigC]

Amen brother!

 

[buck460XVR]

I'm not talking about wandering around in the dark. SAAMI is not a God-like, omnipotent entity. There are other sources of well-proven information and I should not have to be telling you this.

No, but SAAMI specs and published reloading manuals are the closest thing to a bible that handloaders have. They are there for a reason and for that same reason is why ammo and firearm manufacturers follow them. While I know in recent years some specs have been softened, they are still something responsible handloaders respect and use. Their guidelines, while maybe not cast in stone, are guidelines that keep our sport safe. As we both know, safety is paramount with reloading. I may not need to be told about the "other" sources of "well proven" information, but maybe other readers of this thread, like the young and inexperienced I mentioned before, could benefit from this knowledge.

I swear, todays handloaders have become a community of fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worryworts afraid to try anything that hasn't already been proven.

If you're happy with your under maximum handloads, excellent, I'm happy for you. But if someone wants to experiment with theirs, within reason, I applaud them.

It always amazes me that some feel the need for derogatory adjectives and name calling when trying to make an argument to support their opinion, and yet we call this "The High Road". You can take this to the bank 35W, everything to do with handloading for existing cartridges, has already been proven. While I have no problem with folks that feel the need to push the envelope with their own firearms, knowing full well the risks involved, I do have a major problem with chest pounders making blanket statements on the internet that it is safe and appropriate for everyone. To belittle folks that stay within the parameters of responsible reloading is only asking for an accident to happen. If you are as experienced and knowledgeable in handloading as you want us to believe, you know as well as I do, that some newbie, after reading rants on the internet about over max loads being perfectly safe, and one is a drooling worrywart, afraid to leave mamma to not at least try them, is gonna do just that. Maybe you want to applaud that newbie to reloading that fills his cases to the brim because he is not as you call it, "a fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worrywort", but I won't, and I'll let you sit next to him at the range when he tries his new loads. I'll also continue to use my firearms and ammo within the specs and parameters they were intended. If I need to have something more powerful, I'll just grab a bigger caliber. Pretty simple, it's why they now make bigger calibers. Besides......like some others, I don't get that big a thrill outta beatin' Pintos and Gremlins.

 

[jcwit]

I do have a major problem with chest pounders making blanket statements on the internet that it is safe and appropriate for everyone.

Agreed, blanket statements mean little and prove nothing.

 

[35 Whelen]

No, but SAAMI specs and published reloading manuals are the closest thing to a bible that handloaders have. They are there for a reason and for that same reason is why ammo and firearm manufacturers follow them. While I know in recent years some specs have been softened, they are still something responsible handloaders respect and use. Their guidelines, while maybe not cast in stone, are guidelines that keep our sport safe. As we both know, safety is paramount with reloading. I may not need to be told about the "other" sources of "well proven" information, but maybe other readers of this thread, like the young and inexperienced I mentioned before, could benefit from this knowledge.





It always amazes me that some feel the need for derogatory adjectives and name calling when trying to make an argument to support their opinion, and yet we call this "The High Road". You can take this to the bank 35W, everything to do with handloading for existing cartridges, has already been proven. While I have no problem with folks that feel the need to push the envelope with their own firearms, knowing full well the risks involved, I do have a major problem with chest pounders making blanket statements on the internet that it is safe and appropriate for everyone. To belittle folks that stay within the parameters of responsible reloading is only asking for an accident to happen. If you are as experienced and knowledgeable in handloading as you want us to believe, you know as well as I do, that some newbie, after reading rants on the internet about over max loads being perfectly safe, and one is a drooling worrywart, afraid to leave mamma to not at least try them, is gonna do just that. Maybe you want to applaud that newbie to reloading that fills his cases to the brim because he is not as you call it, "a fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worrywort", but I won't, and I'll let you sit next to him at the range when he tries his new loads. I'll also continue to use my firearms and ammo within the specs and parameters they were intended. If I need to have something more powerful, I'll just grab a bigger caliber. Pretty simple, it's why they now make bigger calibers. Besides......like some others, I don't get that big a thrill outta beatin' Pintos and Gremlins.

If you'll re-read my post, I said: "If you're happy with your under maximum handloads, excellent, I'm happy for you. " Get it?

My rant was toward internet nannies who self righteously pound their chests and try to save the world all the while criticizing ME for what is my own business.

If I want to jump out of airplanes, ride a motorcycle without a helmet, hunt grizzlies with a pocket knife, or handload my .38 Special beyond the limits printed in manuals, that's my business. And if any of these activities influences some indiscriminent, careless person well, he or she likely was an accident waiting to happen in the first place. I'll go one step further and say anyone who gets their loading data, be it mouse fart loads or fire belching magnum loads from an internet forum without consulting a manual OR relying on existing experience is an accident waiting to happen to begin with.

35W