Why no affordable competitors to the Hi-Point and Kel-Tec pistol caliber carbines?

[cluttonfred]

aarondhgraham, the question is not why isn't anyone selling something cheaper, it's why there aren't any other choices in the same price range, perhaps something a little more traditional? Other than the extra metal in the barrel, receiver and bolt, is there really anything more complex to a 9mm carbine than, say, a Ruger 10/22?

 

[HoosierQ]

It's the niche. That niche is up-against a real honest to goodness segment and that's the AR-15. You can get an AR-15 for $600 and do way more than you'd ever be able to do with even a very nicely made pistol caliber semi. It's a range toy, an apparently one much loved at that. As such, get a Hi Point, pay $300 and be happy!

My wiseguy remark here is pretty much how I would sum up the attitude in the industry on the subject and thus the products we have.

PS. I like that Garand carbine. Sort of neat.

 

[OilyPablo]

Does anyone have further details on converting the .40 carbine to 10mm?

 

[Carl696]

I too have asked that question. I bought a Marlin Camp carbine in 45 the very first year they came out. I believe the price was under $300.00 ( Not cheap in 1980's dollars) The reason I got it was it used 1911 mags. Two guns one mag. As they say good idea bad design. Several problems surfaced with the 45 and 9mm. One the buffer would break down not so much from use but over time. I don't think I shot more than 300 rounds thru it in the twenty odd years I owned it but when I broke it down to clean it prior to sale last year the buffer just crumbled to dust. I ordered a new one from
Black Jack buffers and a new 16# recoil spring from Wolf. The other problem was the lower trigger housing/mag well was plastic, if you used the wrong solvent it would melt.
I sold it for $775.00 to a guy from NJ a state I used to live in (restricted capacity mag law).
I replaced it with a Areo Carbine in 45acp for $579.00 (2014 dollars) the Areo is nice because the barrel is removable and it takes Glock 21 mags. Broken down it fits into an 19" case.
I had looked at several of the other 45 carbines but all had the same flaw,proprietary mags.
$30-$50 a mag is a deal breaker. I can find Glock 21 mags for about $19 shipped.
My Ideal carbine would be something like the old Ruger 44 carbine but in 9,40 or 45(my choice) no mag needed just a pocket full of shells.

 

[kBob]

HooserQ,

Kind of reminds me of the Cristobol and that looked neat as well.

Let's face it historically though, Winchester had a lock on the M-1 Carbine from square one having been in the final stages of developing their Project G41 .30-06 removable 20 round mag rifle when the call for carbine designs came out. They pretty much just scaled down the G41 project. and so had a real head start on everyone else.

I have never understood how the US manufactures of all sorts of products could turn out 3 million plus functioning M-1 carbines many of which are still going and yet Universal, Iver and Johnson, and National Ordnance couldn't get it right in peace time.

As for top loading magazines. I once knew an Aussie Infantry Officer that contrary to common wisdom LOATHED the Owen SMG and its top feed magazine. He opined that it only took trying to go prone in a hurry once and having that top feed mag try to go up your nose to make you want something more conventional.

-kBob

 

[macadore]

If anyone is in the market, botachtactical.com has the .45ACP Beretta CX4 for $499. Pretty hard to beat.

My problem with the 45 acp carbine is that it only has an 8 round magazine. If it would accept Thompson magazines I would buy one tomorrow.

 

[aarondhgraham]

I could have been clearer,,,

I could have been clearer,,,
With a price point set so low by Hi Point,,,
I would guess other manufacturers are saying there wouldn't be enough profit to make the effort worthwhile.

Also they probably don't see the demand as large enough to support another product.

Aarond

.

 

[isaiahc]

I agree with you... long have I wanted something that's not a Keltec or Hi-point but is super quality, shoots a 9mm out of a 30round Glock magazine and only costs about $250-300!

But then I think the answer is in the question. The fact that I don't want a Kel-tec or Hi-point is the reason there are no other competitors in that price category to begin with. Catch my drift. You want something better, more options or a "competitor" and you really just have to spend more money.

Now to think of it, I'd rather put a shoulder stock on my Glock 17L and buy some 30 round magazines... all legalities bearing, of course.

 

[9mm+]

Undoubtedly, the PCC market is a niche one, but I disagree with any notion that a PCC serves no intended purpose. For a HD shoulder-fired firearm, I would reach for my KelTec Sub2K any day (mine is chambered in .40S&W). Advantages include higher muzzle velocity (range), smaller size in close quarters, and more controllability (accuracy) when the adrenaline is pumping like a garden hose through every organ in your body.

Again, that said, it is a niche market and many users have migrated to rifle calibers like the AR/AK. I don't expect that to change any time soon, if ever. NFA regulations on SBRs will keep MP5-like PCC's out of most civilian hands, but it is interesting to note that there are still some Fed/Mil units using MP5's (in addition to M4's, of course) and now Sig has released a new PCC as well.

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." - M.Twain.

 

[Ar180shooter]

Oh PULLLEEEAASE, let's not go down the "rich folks" stuff again; there are plenty of inexpensive hunting rifles everywhere from every mass marketer of guns

If you want expensive, then look at Hofer, Ollendorf, Hartmann & Weiss, etc.

Remington, Browning, Ruger all make affordable guns for the "everyman" group that most of us fall into

My 700BDL I bought new in 1980 @ $300 would cost $859.77 today (using an inflation calculator) While MSRP is a little more, actual street price is right about that mark

Couldn't agree more. A $1000 rifle is hardly a "rich man's" gun.

 

[leadcounsel]

Hmmmm..... take a pistol. Make it bigger, with a longer barrel, stock, more materials, R&D, etc.

Seems it would necessarily cost MORE than the pistol it is based off, no?

Take a G17 at MSRP around $500. Then design, mold, build stock and take the barrel from 5" to 16"... it should be obvious that it would cost MORE than the underlying pistol if for no other reason than materials (especially given the barrel for a G17 costs about $100 and you're tripling the length for a carbine).

Agreed that a PCC is a very niche market and when you get north of $500, as we've seen, MOST people will just opt for a rifle caliber carbine of a proven design (AR, AK, Ruger Minis, SKS) or perhaps a pistol caliber of proven design (lever actions, or the Beretta). There is a new CZ Skorpion on the market in 9mm coming soon, but will be north of $600.

I do see some benefit for people who are recoil or noise sensitive, reload pistol rounds, magazine commonality, or just want a cool range toy. But that is such a small niche market that I can see why there's little interest by companies in trying to make a sub-$500 PCC, unless it's a loss leader.

Heck, I own an Uzi PCC and it's heavy, awkward, and inefficient and it would be low on my list of practical weapons with that long barrel and relatively low caliber versus size penalty. And it was expensive!!!

But for most people a PCC is just not desirable - you're wielding a rifle and shooting a pistol caliber which is obviously less effective for HD and longer distances/accuracy. Cost of platforms and ammo 556, 762, 9x19, and .40 are all darn close in retail terms. Makes little sense to get a PCC.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Saiga released a 9mm carbine recently. Too bad well never see it .

 

[raubvogel]

Could it also be the market is being covered by the millions of carbine and rifles lookalikes in .22 caliber? I mean, you can get G3, MP44, Uzis, AR, AKs, and M1A looking thingies all in .22 all day for about the same price as a HP carbine.

 

[kBob]

@%$#!@$!!! THR time out!

Wrote a long detailed post a bit ago and forgot to copy before sending and I lost it. Will try to cut it short, copy and restate my ideas.

M-1 Carbine were modified by a guy I believe named LeRoi or some such in a host of bigger calibers and I believe 10 mm was one.

I mentioned the Garand carbine resembling the Cristobal from the Dominican Republic this was a select fire open bolt gun based on the Beretta 38 SMG series and Hungarian M43 series. The Hungarian design used the powerful 9x25 Mauser round which was sort of a rimless .357 Mag of sorts IIRC a 130 grain RNFMJ at 1450fps or so. To keep the weight down the Hungarian designer Kirby designed a two piece bolt system employ a locking lever and an excellerator lever. It was said that such a bolt performed as well and as safely as a bolt weighing 3 or more times as much.

While the Cristobal carbine was a .30 carbine, the system worked I understand (no hands on) pretty well. There was a pretty wood stocked model, the Model 2, and an Ugly As Sin folding stock model with perforated steel front tube hand guard that would delight the Smacktical crowd. For al lits detractors the .30 carbine is a hot little round.

The guns were apparently made on Beretta equipment in the Dominican Republic. I wonder if the equipment is still around and what it would take to redesign the gun to fire semi only from a closed bolt and handle 10 mm. Gosh I hope we did not burn the factory down in that little misunderstanding the US had down there in the early 1960's.

DR could use some technical exports and this would help our neighbor if Customs and ATF would allow import or maybe if the equipment still exist some group of US gun cranks with more money than brains might buy it all and move it here.

They also made a prototype of a marriage between an FAL bolt system and an M-14 gas and trigger system......

-kBob

 

[cluttonfred]

Unfortunately for your scheme, the DR closed up their arms factories when Trujillo died. They do make good cigars, though, and there is nothing wrong with a good pork sandwich and a cold Presidente beer.

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

When I bought my Hi Point I looked at the alternatives. Kel Tec, not a chance I have seen to much garbage come off their assembly line. I can find a Beretta for around $500 plus FFL. I would be willing to pay $500 for a Beretta but the composite hammer/trigger group and lack of accessories left me with the opinion that the Hi Point is a better rifle anyway you shake it. If you torture tested the Hi Point and the Beretta side by side in about 2 hours the Beretta would be finished. Then Cheaper Than Dirt put the Hi Point on sale for $225 I was sold. I have an old classic 995 Hi Point for about 10 years. It has never given me a moments trouble. 9mm ammo is cheap once you start shooting a carbine you run through a bunch of ammo. Especially when you have your own place to shoot. I am glad I am not stuck at a range. I would not be a firearms enthusiast. I had enough of someone yelling at me over some piddly stuff in the Marine Corps, I am not paying someone for it.

 

[roadchoad]

That Citadel 9mm carbine uses easy to find Beretta 92 mags. It looks awesome. Why would someone want to bugger that up with a red dot? I hope it doesn't die a quick death.

 

[Warp]

Very small market. I'd rather have a small/short AR type rifle. Better ergonomics, more customizeable, much better parts/magazine support, much better power, much better trajectory, probably equal or less felt recoil due to the gas system, ammo is not particularly expensive...pistol cartridge carbines just don't have much of a role, most shooters don't have one or use one much

That Citadel 9mm carbine uses easy to find Beretta 92 mags. It looks awesome. Why would someone want to bugger that up with a red dot? I hope it doesn't die a quick death.

http://www.legacysports.com/uploads/images/products/citadel/product-images/Legacy_Sports_Citadel_M1-9mm_Wood.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

That person might consider performance to be more important than looks and might consider ease of making rapid hits on target at close/medium range to be an important performance metric

 

[Johnny_B_Goode]

Very small market. I'd rather have a small/short AR type rifle. Better ergonomics, more customizeable, much better parts/magazine support, much better power, much better trajectory, probably equal or less felt recoil due to the gas system, ammo is not particularly expensive...pistol cartridge carbines just don't have much of a role, most shooters don't have one or use one much



That person might consider performance to be more important than looks and might consider ease of making rapid hits on target at close/medium range to be an important performance metric

The 223/5.56 is a very hard beast to tame. When you get down to brass tacks there is very few ammo choices that exceed pistol performance. In fact, the vast majority of 223/5.56 soft points do not meet FBI standards for a pistol. I do not want to get into a caliber war here but if you watch just handful of ballistic gelatin tests on YouTube you will see my point. Energy means nothing if it cannot be harnessed. Even the 223/5.56 cartridges that do meet FBI standards do no better than a 9mm pistol at SD range (7 yards). I am not trying to influence anyone's weapon selection but the kool aide makes me want to barf.

 

[Warp]

The 223/5.56 is a very hard beast to tame. When you get down to brass tacks there is very few ammo choices that exceed pistol performance. In fact, the vast majority of 223/5.56 soft points do not meet FBI standards for a pistol. I do not want to get into a caliber war here but if you watch just handful of ballistic gelatin tests on YouTube you will see my point. Energy means nothing if it cannot be harnessed. Even the 223/5.56 cartridges that do meet FBI standards do no better than a 9mm pistol at SD range (7 yards). I am not trying to influence anyone's weapon selection but the kool aide makes me want to barf.

5.56 is far superior to handgun rounds such as 9mm at stopping an attacker. And, yes, they do far better than a 9mm pistol at SD ranges (like 7 yards).

 

[Detritus]

The 223/5.56 is a very hard beast to tame. When you get down to brass tacks there is very few ammo choices that exceed pistol performance. In fact, the vast majority of 223/5.56 soft points do not meet FBI standards for a pistol. I do not want to get into a caliber war here but if you watch just handful of ballistic gelatin tests on YouTube you will see my point. Energy means nothing if it cannot be harnessed. Even the 223/5.56 cartridges that do meet FBI standards do no better than a 9mm pistol at SD range (7 yards). I am not trying to influence anyone's weapon selection but the kool aide makes me want to barf.

not in anyway "defending the kool-aid" but,

the point and info you're bringing up, well I'm pretty sure most of the gun owning public neither knows nor (more importantly) comprehends and therefore they are not making their choices with it in mind at all.
this is one of those sectors of the "gun world" where those of us on forums such as this one are in a rarified minority, in that we actually look for and at data, and share it, before we buy. most shooters buy not based on real world utility but on factors like familiarity and let's be honest "Cool factor"

and I'm not so sure the gelatin tests you refer to really show what you think. the reputable tests I've seen show the .223 dumping a whole lot more energy, in a much more disruptive manner than pistol calibers. 9mm penetrates more, but its energy transfer is less.
the FBI standards are for pistol calibers and they do NOT transfer/equate well to rifle calibers.

 

[Thermactor]

Today in this thread I learned that 9mm para is a better man-stopper than 223 remington.

 

[Aragon]

Firearms is a different kind of business. There are import restrictions which keeps US entrepreneurs from easily ordering container loads of guns from offshore and then blowing them out at low prices.

There are also selling restrictions (must use FFL) while makes things more costly and difficult. Further, the market has been strong for the last couple of years (now softening) so sellers could get top dollar no matter what. Finally, guns are a non-PC business that many established companies want no part of because of fear that selling guns would impact their other product lines.

It's not about "you get what you pay for." If there were no import or selling restrictions, high quality "plastic fantastics" from new, entrepreneurial firms would be $199.99 or less. They would also be putting tremendous pressure on established gun makers to lower prices.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Seems like the Sig brace for pistols might breath a whole lot of new life into submachinegun format weapons, depending on what the ATF's opinion on them is this week.

Personally, even with a 16" barrel, I'd be interested in a 10mm PCC, though no manufacturer seems to have much interest in this (I think Oly Arms does or did make an AR upper in 10mm? but my limited track record with them would not inspire me to sign up for one).

I'd also think a lever gun carbine in the S&W monster revolver cartridges would sell, but unless I missed something, those haven't made it to market after a decade or so either.

 

[roadchoad]

Not everyone likes ARs. Some don't like the extra noise and blast associated with .223.

I don't have any problem hitting my target with open sites at the useful range of a red dot. Used one, didn't see an advantage to it. Turning on a red dot is one more thing to worry about in a sd situation.