Why no affordable competitors to the Hi-Point and Kel-Tec pistol caliber carbines?

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roadchoad said:
Not everyone likes ARs. Some don't like the extra noise and blast associated with .223.

I don't have any problem hitting my target with open sites at the useful range of a red dot. Used one, didn't see an advantage to it. Turning on a red dot is one more thing to worry about in a sd situation.
Click to expand...

If it works for you, it works for you. Nothing wrong with open or iron sights. But out of curiosity, did you do anything on the timer to compare speed with iron sights vs a red dot? Particularly in low light or shooting into darker areas/shadows?

No need to worry about turning it on, that's what Aimpoints are for. :) 3-5 years battery life. You did try an Aimpoint and not a cheap Chinese ripoff right?

The noise and blast is going to be greater for sure, unless you spring for even more $ and get a suppressor. Better terminal performance is the benefit to the blast/concussion of course, up to each individual to decide if it's worth it.
 
So now, instead of a $300 hi point, we are recommending a an AR with aim point and suppressor? Get me that even at double the price of the hi point and I'll happily switch to .223. :rolleyes:

Sorry to have derailed the thread OP.
 
No ruling is pending, he is just sarcastically referring to how the ATF has famously rescinded its approval of items. Legal one day, illegal the next due to ATF ruling.
 
Detritus said:
not in anyway "defending the kool-aid" but,

the point and info you're bringing up, well I'm pretty sure most of the gun owning public neither knows nor (more importantly) comprehends and therefore they are not making their choices with it in mind at all.
this is one of those sectors of the "gun world" where those of us on forums such as this one are in a rarified minority, in that we actually look for and at data, and share it, before we buy. most shooters buy not based on real world utility but on factors like familiarity and let's be honest "Cool factor"

and I'm not so sure the gelatin tests you refer to really show what you think. the reputable tests I've seen show the .223 dumping a whole lot more energy, in a much more disruptive manner than pistol calibers. 9mm penetrates more, but its energy transfer is less.
the FBI standards are for pistol calibers and they do NOT transfer/equate well to rifle calibers.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, gelatin tests are nothing like the effect a bullet has a human flesh. Human flesh is elastic or it stretches. It does not blow apart like ballistic gelatin. All ballistic gelatin provides is a common testing medium.

Trauma surgeons who have operated on hundreds of gunshot wounds openly admit they cannot tell the difference between the wound left by a 9mm FMJ and a 10mm hollow point. Some of these surgeons are combat veterans. These remarks were in the FBI caliber selection study.

The so called energy dump from any 223/5.56 cartridge would be like dropping a 10lb hammer from two inches. We cannot just dump newtons laws of physics. What you feel in recoil is the energy dump of the 223. I have shot my share of AR pistols. AR pistols do not have much more recoil than a rifle.

I didn't want to go here but we have beat the pistol caliber carbine topic to death anyway.

223/5.56 soft point gel tests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2uMOv1YSXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWojqtvHnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE5ZnQmKy2o

Some of the 223 tests were done at 50 yards yet the bullet still over expands. You would get even less penetration or total fragmentation at SD range.

9mm gel tests with a pistol
The federal 9BPLE has been in the Federal line up for close to 30 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9iiaXoRaRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZFZFmBKa0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COVoBwR1oww

Believe it or not the standard 9mm loads often penetrate better than the +P loads.
 
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The so called energy dump from any 223/5.56 cartridge would be like dropping a 10lb hammer from two inches. We cannot just dump newtons laws of physics. What you feel in recoil is the energy dump of the 223. I have shot my share of AR pistols. AR pistols do not have much more recoil than a rifle.
Click to expand...
A 55-grain .223 softpoint at 7 yards has in excess of 1,200 ft-lb of energy, which is roughly the energy of dropping a 10-lb hammer from a height of 120 feet. What you feel in recoil is the equal and opposite *momentum* of the rifle-gases-bullet system, but there is much, much more *energy* in the bullet than in the recoil.

Believe it or not the standard 9mm loads often penetrate better than the +P loads.
Click to expand...
That's because the narrower a projectile's track, and the less disruption it causes, the further it will travel before stopping. +P is traveling faster than non +P, so if the same bullet is used then +P will expand more aggressively and stop sooner. Likewise, standard-pressure 9mm JHP penetrates much less than 9mm FMJ. However, beyond a certain point, effectiveness decreases as penetration increases.

FWIW, a 50-grain .25 ACP FMJ at 789 ft/sec will penetrate 15.1" in 10% gelatin, more than a 115gr 9mm +P+ JHP, but will be far less effective at incapacitating an assailant.
 
roadchoad said:
So now, instead of a $300 hi point, we are recommending a an AR with aim point and suppressor? Get me that even at double the price of the hi point and I'll happily switch to .223. :rolleyes:

Sorry to have derailed the thread OP.
Click to expand...

Now are are clarifying that 5.56 is a superior fight stopper when compared to 9mm.

We are also clarifying that some people might put a red dot sight on a rifle or a carbine instead of iron sights because red dot sights are quicker to acquire (and easier to pick up in many low light situations, and noting that if you get the best red dot sight, that being an Aimpoint, you don't need to remember to turn it on)

The first clarification pretty well answer's the OP's question IMO...the rifle cartridge rifles offer clearly superior ballistics to 9mm.

Additionally I suppose that making a quality, reliable carbine costs money, so the only low price options in the market are from low price manufacturers.
 
Does anybody make a carbine (or even machine pistol) chassis for the PX4? That'd be a very affordable and desirable alternative to the B&T TP9 PDW, and would be softer shooting than any blowback. More attractive suppressor host, too (heavier and longer suppressors wouldn't exert near as much force on barrel camming parts as a tilt barrel would)

TCB
 
benEzra said:
A 55-grain .223 softpoint at 7 yards has in excess of 1,200 ft-lb of energy, which is roughly the energy of dropping a 10-lb hammer from a height of 120 feet. What you feel in recoil is the equal and opposite *momentum* of the rifle-gases-bullet system, but there is much, much more *energy* in the bullet than in the recoil.


That's because the narrower a projectile's track, and the less disruption it causes, the further it will travel before stopping. +P is traveling faster than non +P, so if the same bullet is used then +P will expand more aggressively and stop sooner. Likewise, standard-pressure 9mm JHP penetrates much less than 9mm FMJ. However, beyond a certain point, effectiveness decreases as penetration increases.

FWIW, a 50-grain .25 ACP FMJ at 789 ft/sec will penetrate 15.1" in 10% gelatin, more than a 115gr 9mm +P+ JHP, but will be far less effective at incapacitating an assailant.
Click to expand...
I could put you on some 5.56x54 ammo that really does perform. It is a FMJ and it doesn't tumble but I really don't think you would understand the technology when you think a 223 has the same energy dump as 10-lb hammer from a height of 120 feet.

You are the master. I am stupid you will hear no more of my ignorance.

By your math a 45acp should crush a plastic dummy. A 45 acp +P generates close to 500 ft lb of energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZPusyLeMA

Next time prove me wrong, don't just shoot off your opinion.
 
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"I really don't think you would understand the technology when you think a 223 has the same energy dump as 10-lb hammer from a height of 120 feet."

You realize energy is a mathematically-derived quantity, right? This statement is probably factual (I'm not checking the numbers, but such unintuitive findings are hardly uncommon; for instance, that fastballs can approach some firearms in energy transfer)

If you mean to say that other factors come into play than just the pure energy of the example above (they do), then don't use energy to describe it. It is a very specific formulated number based on nothing but mass and velocity, same as momentum.

"By your math a 45acp should crush a plastic dummy. A 45 acp +P generates close to 500 ft lb of energy"
That pistol put just as much momentum into the shooter as the target. The only --only-- difference is the area over which it is spread, and how quickly. With fast enough bullets, Kevlar can't shift quickly enough to flex and absorb it, and shears through, and with fast enough bullets, tissue is pushed away so violently its own momentum carries it even further like a boat wake to the point of tearing (or in hideously high energies, splashing). Smaller diameter bullets deliver their energy over a more focused area, but are also limited by their own tendency to deform under high contact stresses (why meplat bullets cut tissue better than ogives). The trick though, is that to get a bullet that fast, it must be light, or the shooter experience terrible recoil. The cost of that lighter bullet, is that it slows down a lot faster for any given resistance, air or tissue, so unless they are very long to compensate for the amplified drag effects, penetration and range drop rapidly.
 
I realize that foot lb are just like ballistic gel. It is common way of showing how much energy a bullet is capable of creating. In the case of the 223/5.56 it cannot use that energy with such a tiny bullet so it over expands and fails to achieve 12 to 18 inches of penetration. With a rifle you usually want more than 18 inches of penetration so it can deal with barriers.

I use this bullet when I hog hunt with a 5.56x45 and sometimes to we have to cull deer who are destroying crops. But I do not use a soft point. The soft point does not pass through deer or hog unless the animal is small. Federal 5.56 T556TNB1 62gr OTM Mod0 does pass through even large hogs over 200lb right in the shoulder. Yet the bullet does expand being a FMJ. If you are to close to the animal it fragments. Being to close is seldom an issue. We just drive in the field with one or two men in the back of the truck. We shoot everything we see. It is a nasty affair that I do not care for. But this guy is a true friend. When someone lets you borrow their $250k machine you help them cull deer and other nuisance animals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRB0LwiNz24

I do not use a 223/5.56 for sport hunting or SD. I prefer a shotgun and my wife uses the 9mm carbine for SD. I have adequate centerfire rifles for hunting and a rifled barrel for my shotgun. With the standard load 135gr critical duty the carbine gets great penetration and controlled expansion. The critical duty does well on barriers. I am not one to wait for someone to kick my door in before I start shooting. If they belonged here they would not be trying to kick my door down. If they are panicked they would call out to me before they got to the door. Otherwise, they would knock or call to let me know they are on the way.
 
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Setting aside the off-topic issue of the utility of PCCs to begin with, I'd say there just isn't much room for anyone to compete with Hi-Point on price with any hope of turning a profit. There are very few decent quality auto pistols that come under the $325-$350 street price of a Hi-Point carbine! And as others have pointed out there's a lot more material in a carbine (more steel for the barrel, more plastic for the stock and other parts, more packaging material, even shipping/transportation is higher). Kudos to Hi-Point! They're fugly guns I've never heard a bad word about their reliability. It's amazing that they can bang 'em out for that price and make a profit.

I thought the M-1 Carbine in 9mm looked interesting until I Googled it. It looks like it's just made to look like an M-1. Inside it's a blowback operated gun, not a gas operated gun like a real M-1. If you like the old school styling then I can see getting one but under the skin it's not really an M-1 carbine at all. Still, it's probably a neat little gun. My Beretta Storm takes 92 mags and that's a great feature since mags are very cheap, quite common and very reliable.

I don't think there's any question that a 5.56 round out of a 16" barrel is a better fight stopper than a 9mm, .40 or .45 out of any barrel. But I think the PCC still has a place in home defense. The better comparison isn't a PCC vs an AR but rather a PCC vs a pistol. There I think the PCC has a lot of advantages in many cases. First off it's a helluva lot easier to hit something with a long gun regardless of the round. You have four points of contact with a carbine and a much, much longer sight radius. A PCC generally weights several times more than a pistol; the weight combined with the recoil being directed into the body makes it easier to manage recoil vs a handgun. Most modern PCCs are also set up in a way that makes it easy to mount optics and accessories such as lights, lasers and VFGs. Some of them are light enough to press into service with one hand if necessary. With a single point sling my Storm carbine is pretty easy to maneuver with in tight spaces.

To me one of the best things about PCCs is that I can shoot them on the indoor range and my LGS. They don't allow rifles but PCCs are permitted.
 
I take my maverick88 SD model to the skeet range. It is the only shotgun I own with a crossbolt safety and no vent rib. If I don't shoot it every couple months I will shoot a little high. Plus guns that are never used fail when you need them to work for a variety of reasons.

We try to get at least 3 or 4 shooters with security shotguns at the same time. The group with security shotguns will move slower than a group with field shotguns. Usually someone is tinkering with their gun and the barrel gets hot quick! I do not trust the sights on the heat shields.

The Maverick 88 with the extended magazine is a great value. You can find security model for $200. It holds nine 2 3/4" shells just like the Mossberg. Seventy two pellets of 00 buck should end the conversation.
 
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Johnny_B_Goode said:
I realize that foot lb are just like ballistic gel. It is common way of showing how much energy a bullet is capable of creating. In the case of the 223/5.56 it cannot use that energy with such a tiny bullet so it over expands and fails to achieve 12 to 18 inches of penetration. With a rifle you usually want more than 18 inches of penetration so it can deal with barriers.

I use this bullet when I hog hunt with a 5.56x45 and sometimes to we have to cull deer who are destroying crops. But I do not use a soft point. The soft point does not pass through deer or hog unless the animal is small. Federal 5.56 T556TNB1 62gr OTM Mod0 does pass through even large hogs over 200lb right in the shoulder. Yet the bullet does expand being a FMJ. If you are [too] close to the animal it fragments. Being to close is seldom an issue. We just drive in the field with one or two men in the back of the truck. We shoot everything we see. It is a nasty affair that I do not care for. But this guy is a true friend. When someone lets you borrow their $250k machine you help them cull deer and other nuisance animals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRB0LwiNz24

I do not use a 223/5.56 for sport hunting or SD. I prefer a shotgun and my wife uses the 9mm carbine for SD. I have adequate centerfire rifles for hunting and a rifled barrel for my shotgun. With the standard load 135gr critical duty the carbine gets great penetration and controlled expansion. The critical duty does well on barriers. I am not one to wait for someone to kick my door in before I start shooting. If they belonged here they would not be trying to kick my door down. If they are panicked they would call out to me before they got to the door. Otherwise, they would knock or call to let me know they are on the way.
Click to expand...

I don't want my home defense rifle shooting through so many barriers. I don't live alone in the country or anything. YMMV

swixt said:
I think that they are great for the "non-firearms-lover" owner of a home defense gun. They make far more sense( for such a person)than a pump 12 gauge...
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Agreed.
 
Not sure if it was mentioned already, but I really like the Ruger Deerfield in .44 mag. Kinda hard to find. Would be nice to hunt with now that Ohio allows straight wall cartridges.

3687943_01_ruger_99_44_deerfield_44_mag_640.jpg
 
I'm not sold on the idea that cost of manufacture is the sole limiting factor on production. How much more could it possibly cost to manufacture a .45 acp blowback rifle as opposed to a .22LR? Pressure should not be an issue for a .45, as it is lower than a .22LR.
 
roadchoad said:
I'm not sold on the idea that cost of manufacture is the sole limiting factor on production. How much more could it possibly cost to manufacture a .45 acp blowback rifle as opposed to a .22LR? Pressure should not be an issue for a .45, as it is lower than a .22LR.
Click to expand...

Of course cost is not the sole limiting factor.

Lack of demand is way up there. A small light straight blowback .45 ACP carbine will have not-insignificant perceived recoil, limited effective range, and far less 'power' at a higher per round ammunition cost compared to an intermediate rifle cartridge. We don't have a lot of people lining up to buy that.
 
Big7 said:
Nothing wrong with Kel-Tec.

The shop started out as a CNC machine shop that built plastic injection molds, before
the migration to "guns only".

They simply can not keep up with the demand and for whatever reason, don't want
to expand.

I can see not wanting to sub-contract. You lose control of your quality when you do that.

I'm in the business, been there, done that.

I have never owned one of the carbines.
My friend had one for a while and I shot it a lot.

No problems. If I had use for the type, I would not hesitate
to buy the Kel-Tec.
Click to expand...

That's simply not true. Companies which have excellent, documented designs that do a good job of qualifying, managing and communicating with their suppliers do not experience reduced product quality.
 
Captains1911 said:
I have yet to discover an AR carbine that can be carried in a small laptop bag without a tax stamp.
Click to expand...

Bold added by me cause I know where Warp is headed.
 
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