Why use HP or SP for self defense?

[R.H. Lee]

Nothing is 100%

We humans are not all that tough.

Recently had a murder in the next county. Guy shot once in chest close range with .22lr fired from handgun (not sure what kind). DRT.

I have never been in a gunfight. Don't ever want to be. I regularly practice two quick shots, (one sight picture, is that a 'hammer' or 'double-tap'?)
COM at a silhouette 7-10yds. Nobody is shooting back, I'm not shaking like a dog sh***ing peach pits, I hit COM twice, re-acquire sight picture and repeat. I can keep the shots closer together with a 9mm than with a .45. However, I am confident with either.

Conficence is the key. Whatever weapon you use, practice shot placement until it becomes "muscle memory". I have heard that under stress you will do as you have trained. (I should try practicing behind cover, rather than standing up out in the open, popping off two at a time.)

You can't afford to worry about over or under penetration when you need to stop an attack NOW. I suppose if you are undecided you could alternate rounds (jhp,jhp,fmj,jhp,fmj,etc)

 

[Swamprabbit]

I'm not sure this "overpenetration" thing is what its being touted. Think about it. IF you were in a situation where you have a shot at said BG but you have a child in the room behind the bad guy. Would you take the shot with the hollow point thinking that the bullet won't penetrate said BG, the wall, and...well, you get the point. Me, no I wouldn't place that kind of trust in the bullet. I just think that the risk of penetration ALWAYS is an issue and I don't really think that 45 FMJ is going to go through that much more than a hollow point of the same weight and velocity.

As a general rule, I think that the hollow point would be more effective given the best circumstances. On the other hand, I am not defenseless with a clip full of FMJ either.

 

[cratz2]

The other thing is, a round that exits the intended target, doesn't always go straight through... It could possibly go in a shoulder, spin the guy a little bit, maybe bounce off a shoulder and come out at a deflected angle.

Wasn't there a report (third fourth hand, I know) of a guy that shot an FMJ 9mm at a person and it actually came back and hit the shooter? I think this was from a fairly reliable source... Ayoob, maybe?

I'm just sayin, if the bullet can do a lot of damage and stay in the bad guy, that sounds like a plan to me!

 

[Flashpoint]

With my experience with critters of the 4 legged variety unless you hit the at what I would call self-defense range a 9mm will make it out the other side. If it doesn't it's pretty darn close. I don't know about anything smaller than a 9mm though.

 

[HardCOR]

I think that another disadvantage of ball ammo is that the front of the bullet is just that, a ball. Balls are good at rolling and bouncing. Ball ammo coming into contact with skulls or windshields may glance-off. A HP, SP or even a flat-pointed full metal jacket has a better chance to bite into a hard surface that is at a bit of an angle. In my Bersa .380, I use Dymite Noble 90 grain soft-points that are like a hollow-point, except that the hole is small. Kind of a flat-point, soft-nose with a little hole in the middle. Penetrates 4 one gallon milk jugs filled with water without expanding. Cost was $100 for a thousand rounds at SOG.

 

[happyguy]

Here we go again.....

How much penetration do you need? If I'm not mistake Fackler liked 18 inches. How many JHP's out there get that much in gelatin?

Regards,
Happyguy

 

[Longbow]

Um, stop and think a minute. There is only one hole. It is just a question of how wide and deep it is.

That's two holes, one entry hole and one exit hole, or am I missing something?

Myth. The military uses FMJ because that's what our interpretation of the Hague Conventions indicates is LEGAL to use under the international law of war. That whole "wound vs. kill" busness is pure b.s., the Army that I was a part of taught soldiers how to kill the enemy, not merely inconvenience him.

That I agree!

 

[Tamara]

That's two holes, one entry hole and one exit hole, or am I missing something?

Wouldn't that be three holes? (The entry hole, the exit hole, and that long hole connecting the two of them together. )

 

[Snowdog]

Why use JHPs in lieu of FMJs?

Because 9 out of 10 dentists prefer you shoot someone who's really evil with the bullet on the right* ....

230gr .45acp FMJ (left) compared to a 230gr Black Talon JHP

* If you don't believe me, ask your dentist.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

One thing about FMJ out of pistols:

You need to remember human tissue is elastic. So coupled with the low velocity, and the pointy design of most fmj ammo, a 38 will punch a hole closer to 22 caliber. Where a wadcutter or hollowpoint that doesn't clog is guaranteed to leave a larger diamiter hole. Even a clogged hp round has a wider meplat than FMJ.

Rifle velocities are a whole 'nuther game.

 

[cratz2]

Guys... this 'one hole' 'two hole' thing is just silly...

How many holes does a donught have?

If you buy a garden hose with only one hole, will water not flow through it?

If there is only one entrance wound and the bullet does not fragment, then there is only one hole and there is only one wound.



Anyway, look at snowdog's picture and tell me, assuming a center of mass wound while wearing a t-shirt are there many people here that would really rather get hit with the Black Talon or Ranger T?

 

[Rickstir]

Easy way out here. Carry what your local law enforcement officers carry. If ever asked in court by a shiftless lawyer, "Sir why did you shoot the victum with that overly leathal Falcon Talon Devil Round?" If you carry what the locals carry, you are applying an "excepted" round. LEO's will not carry what doesn't work. I checked my county and they all carry JHP's. They have standardized on .45ACP. "We like 'em, train with them, and have seen what they can do. I suggest you carry the same". I will.

 

[gunfan]

Nato "ball" ammunition

This ammunition is made to run hotter than the proverbial "hinges of Hades." The sole purpose of this amminition is to blow the projectile out the barrel of the various pistols, rifles and SMGs as fast and accurately as possible.

They don't give a rusty fig what's beind the intended target. Moreover, if the round can cause increased peripheral damage to other enemy personnel, so much the better. I wouldn't shoot NATO ammunition in pistols of standard manufacture, (the Glock being the sole exception to this rule.) It is simply too hot to be fired in civilian firearms. these rounds will abbreviate the firearm's life in relatively short order.

JMHO,

Scott

 

[Marshall]

Isn't anything above a 9mm and .38 going to make two holes regardless?

 

[Carbon_15]

Bigger hole.

Enegry dump and other junk science aside..you nailed it
FMJ wounds, while deep, look like icepick stabs. FMJ's tend to push flesh aside rather than crushing it like the flat broad profile of an expanded HP.

 

["yote"]

Quote:
"Energy Transfer," isn't important at all. Then again, the small, low velocity bullets from handguns don't pack much energy anyway, so in handgun calibers, energy transfer is pointless.

Hey Clean, Put a vest on and let me give you a lesson
on "Energy Transfer".

Oh come on, Please?

 

[T.Stahl]

For military applications, yes, I prefer FMJs. But then...
a) ...I want as much penetration and AP capabilities as possible to reach the target through cover and armor in the first place.
b) ...I'm not the least concerned about overpenetration and collateral damage to bystanders 1 klick behind the target.
c) ...I'm carrying a 7.62x51 with fragmenting German FMJs anyways.

For civilian self-defense indoors or outdoors I have to be much more conscious of the other people living within the range of my gun. Then I want to hit and do severe harm only to the intended target and nothing and nobody else. Best way to achieve that is to...
a) ...hit the target where it's not too thin and soft.
b) ...use bullets that will stay within the target or will be too slow and deformed to do substantial harm should they exit it.

 

[Frohickey]

Tissue damage, that is what you want, tissue damage. And I'm not talking about the Charmin two-ply variety when you are praying to the porcelain god chanting grunting incantations.

A FMJ bullet will readily feed in an auto-pistol because of the profile of the bullet. But since the wounds that bullets cause are dependent on the profile of the bullet, you have a disconnect here. You want ammo that will feed reliably, but you want a wadcutter profile bullet when it hits the target. So, what to do?

Get the JHP, which has the profile, or close to it, of a FMJ so that it can reliably feed in an auto-pistol, but when it hits the target, it can turn into a wadcutter, or even better, a larger front, which is what does the tissue damage.

All of this talk about hydrostatic shock and other malarky is just that. Pistol rounds do not have enough energy. Hydrostatic shock is only good if there is enough there to exceed the elasticity of tissue. Tissue can be pushed around, its when you push it fast enough and far enough out of the way that it can't go back that you cause tissue damage.

Another way of looking at it is the size of the temporary cavity generated compared to the size of the target. Everyone has heard about 220Swift making a good hit on small varmints like squirrels and groundhogs. If you shoot the 220Swift at a large block of ballistic gelatin, you will see that the permanent cavity that it creates is pretty tiny, but the temporary cavity is pretty large. If you hit a small animal with this, the permanent cavity it makes is still tiny, but the temporary cavity is bigger than the animal itself, so you end up with pink mist, where the small animals tissue is moved 'temporarilly' outside of the animal itself, becoming 'permanent'.

Hit a larger animal with the 220Swift, an animal that is several times bigger than the temporary cavity, and you will see just the permanent cavity. The temporary cavity is temporary.

For self-defense revolvers, you could go to wadcutters, with no problem at all. And you would have more penetration. If you hit bone, even better.

 

[DMK]

I want something that will penetrate without expanding. I want to be able to hit a target in the CNS without worrying that a .38 spl will simply flower on the outside.

Then you need a heavier and/or hotter bullet.

With todays technology, you should be able to find ammo that will penetrate AND expand. If you can't, then you need to be carrying a bigger caliber.

But with 9x19, .38 Specials, .45 ACP's and other standard handgun cartridges the bullet's SD and low power means that in most cases the HP or SP acts as an air brake, preventing complete penetration.

I don't know. In many cases I've heard about, Hollow Point 9mm and 45ACP still exited the other side.

I'd suspect that SP pistol ammo would mostly act just like FMJ except for really high vel ammo like hot .357, 44mag or 10mm.

 

[Lord Grey Boots]

"Energy Transfer," isn't important at all. Then again, the small, low velocity bullets from handguns don't pack much energy anyway, so in handgun calibers, energy transfer is pointless.

Um, wrong.

Energy Transfer is everything. Its what causes damage to the target. The Kinetic energy of the bullet is transfered to heat energy in the target, which causes flesh to be torn or pulped, or moved.

To do the maximum damage, you need to have 100% energy transfer within the target. The variable is where the energy is transfered within the target.

Low penetration means 100% transfer within the first few inches of the target.

Over penetration means <100% energy transfer within the target, and the bullet still had KE after passing completely throught the target.

Bullet shape, mass, profile, construction, and velocity all impact what the energy dump profile looks like within the target.

Sooooo, you want the bullet to stay within the target, but not stop too quick.

Ideal penetration is 15 to 18 inches in ballistic gelatin, about the same in flesh, and then as much energy as you can get.

 

[Third_Rail]

Hm. Okay, is there something that would not give such problems with expansion, but still give good penetration? I just don't like the idea of most JHPs....

 

[ducktapehero]

I would trust FMJ in 45acp and up. MAYBE 40 S&W. I use FMJ in my 45 right now in case if I ever have to shoot THRU something to get the bad guy.

 

[MrMurphy]

The Remington Golden Saber, Federal HydraSHok, Speer Gold Dot and PMC Starfire, as well as teh Winchester SXT all have solid penetration, yet expand to over twice their size. That means a 9mm .355 turns into about a .52, and a .45 turns into about a .64 if I remember right.


I have seen a mess of people shot as a news photographer. Of all the shootings where ball was involved I can only remember two where the guy actually died. One was a drive up where he was hit by ambush with a 9mm FMJ center mass twice, he crawled up on a porch and croaked. Practically target range work for the shooter, he knew what was coming and the target didn't. Another was similar, a .380 at nearly muzzle contact distance to the ribs. All teh other FMJs that hit the guy usually weren't even close to major organs, and the guy limped off, shot back,etc. I know one scumbag who was hit in the chest by a 9mm FMJ and was on the street again two weeks later I think........ next time he got shot, the guy aimed better and killed him. Head shot.

Another guy I know took a hit from a few feet away to the leg. 4 9mm FMJs, went through his leg, the car seat, the bottom of the car ('70s Cadillac......solid car) and into the ground. I'm sorry but shooting FMJs against horizontal targets means it's highly likely you'll nail an innocent civilian even IF you hit the bad guy.

NYPD switched to hollowpoints finally just because of overpenetration. They kept killing or dropping the bad guys with 9mm ball, but they were also overpenetrating and hitting other people they weren't aimed at. Hollowpoints do better work than ball, and don't overpenetrate. And even then, it's only a pistol round, it might not work. Saw a guy take two .40 JHPs in the chest from about three feet and still kept fighting off three large (6' 200+ lb) cops trying to cuff him AFTER he'd just been shot. And the guy was about 5'6 140lb....... triple bank robber who really didn't want to go to jail. Don't forget mental toughness of the target.

I use .45 JHPs cause it's the largest round I shoot well, it expands to an even bigger diameter, and if it doesn't, .45 unexpanded is still a good round. It's unlikely to overpenetrate, and very likely to drop the bad guy from a center mass hit.

 

[Third_Rail]

Okay, is there a bullet that would limit penetration but would still go through light bone? I don't want to hit someone I didn't mean to, but I certainly don't want a .45 ACP hollowpoint flattening on a skull.

I know, I think chest/COM shots would be too mess and too violent, and then I advocate headshots... oy.

 

[MrMurphy]

Unless it's a weird angle, a hollowpoint hit shouldn't bounce off a skull, though there's a first time for everything.


Chest hits actually aren't very messy...... I've seen a guy hit with a .40 in the back and it was a tiny little hole without much blood. And he was still trying to get up while the medics worked on him.

Most hollowpoints will at least crack a light bone (arm bone, whatever), if it's in a serious caliber (9mm and up).