This started off as a reply in the recent .32ACP thread, but I decided it would get to far off the track.
It was in reference to a dismisal of the STOPPING POWER statistics compiled by MARSHALL & SANOW.
I would not be so fast to dismiss the work of MARSHALL & SANOW, especially based on the work or lack of work by FACKLER!
The stats issued by MARSHALL & SANOW have matched the experience of some other writers working independantly and several major law enforcement agencies.
1. M & S (MARSHALL & SANOW) listed the .357 magnum as the most effective round until the debut of the high velocity .40 caliber rounds. The U.S. Border Patrol and several state police agencies used this round and I never read or heard of any complaints about the stopping power.
PLEASE NOTE: this round would be a poor manstopper if Martin FACKER'S deep penetration criteria were valid. Many of the 125 grain JHP loads pentrate 10 inches or less.
Also, note that the .357 SIG round for semi auto's is now growing in popularity with law enforcement agencies who are finding it offers similar stopping power to the .357 magnum revolver round.
2. The .40 S&W round did not earn much of a reputation until the 155 grain JHP was released. It was developed by for the U.S. Border Patrol after extensive testing based on actual gunfights. The Border Patrol has more experience in gunfights that ALL OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES PUT TOGETHER.
Since the 155 grain load was adopted, I have not read or heard of any complaints about stopping power. It does not penetrate very deeply, but stops opponents more effectively than any other caliber at the moment.
Note, the I&NS which the U.S. Border Patrol was a part of, permitted officers to carry privately owned SIG-220 .45ACP pistols. If the .40 S&W did not do the job, these people along with all the former .357 magnum carriers, would not be quiet about it.
3. The 10 m.m. auto round fires a heavier bullet than the .40 S&W at the same or even higher velocities. It therefore, based on the deeper penetration criteria should be the ultimate police round. However, I have read it is being dropped by the few agencies that I have heard were using it. According to the M & S critics, this should not be happening.
According to the books published by MARSHALL & SANOW, this round is LESS EFFECTIVE than the .40 S&W (NOTE THAT IN ORDER TO INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE 10m.m. OVER THE .40 S&W, THE SAME LIGHTWEIGHT BULLETT COULD BE DRIVEN TO HIGHER VELOCITIES THAN THE .40 S&W, BUT RECOIL WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE TO MOST SHOOTERS). If
MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong about the effectiveness of lighter, faster bullets, then why are they working so well for the the U.S.B.P. and other agencies that have adopted this load.
4. M & S also list the .38 Special +P load as effective 75 to 79% of the time. Those police departments that have used this load, Miami-Dade and FBI among others, have also found it effective.
So what has FACKLER published. If deeper penetrating rounds worked so much better, there would be a huge body of evidence by now. Where is it?
Every time FACKLER makes a comment, I note that it is a personal attack or a criticism of how the data was collected or analized. but there are NO PERCENTAGES FROM FACKLER OR ANY OF THE M & S CRITICS!
If somebody who claims that M & S are wrong, please present YOUR EVIDENCE! I would love to see the CORRECTLY ANALIZED method that the M & S work is supposed to be lacking in.
I am just really curious to see SOME FACTS to go along with all the insults to the work done by MARSHALL & SANOW.
I note that the FIREARMS TACTICAL does not publish any statistics on stopping power. Why not? If MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong, gather your own stats and state your criteria. If M & S are wrong, the stats will show it. But, that has not happened. It is just the same old personal attacks.
Just my opinion
Jim
It was in reference to a dismisal of the STOPPING POWER statistics compiled by MARSHALL & SANOW.
I would not be so fast to dismiss the work of MARSHALL & SANOW, especially based on the work or lack of work by FACKLER!
The stats issued by MARSHALL & SANOW have matched the experience of some other writers working independantly and several major law enforcement agencies.
1. M & S (MARSHALL & SANOW) listed the .357 magnum as the most effective round until the debut of the high velocity .40 caliber rounds. The U.S. Border Patrol and several state police agencies used this round and I never read or heard of any complaints about the stopping power.
PLEASE NOTE: this round would be a poor manstopper if Martin FACKER'S deep penetration criteria were valid. Many of the 125 grain JHP loads pentrate 10 inches or less.
Also, note that the .357 SIG round for semi auto's is now growing in popularity with law enforcement agencies who are finding it offers similar stopping power to the .357 magnum revolver round.
2. The .40 S&W round did not earn much of a reputation until the 155 grain JHP was released. It was developed by for the U.S. Border Patrol after extensive testing based on actual gunfights. The Border Patrol has more experience in gunfights that ALL OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES PUT TOGETHER.
Since the 155 grain load was adopted, I have not read or heard of any complaints about stopping power. It does not penetrate very deeply, but stops opponents more effectively than any other caliber at the moment.
Note, the I&NS which the U.S. Border Patrol was a part of, permitted officers to carry privately owned SIG-220 .45ACP pistols. If the .40 S&W did not do the job, these people along with all the former .357 magnum carriers, would not be quiet about it.
3. The 10 m.m. auto round fires a heavier bullet than the .40 S&W at the same or even higher velocities. It therefore, based on the deeper penetration criteria should be the ultimate police round. However, I have read it is being dropped by the few agencies that I have heard were using it. According to the M & S critics, this should not be happening.
According to the books published by MARSHALL & SANOW, this round is LESS EFFECTIVE than the .40 S&W (NOTE THAT IN ORDER TO INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE 10m.m. OVER THE .40 S&W, THE SAME LIGHTWEIGHT BULLETT COULD BE DRIVEN TO HIGHER VELOCITIES THAN THE .40 S&W, BUT RECOIL WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE TO MOST SHOOTERS). If
MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong about the effectiveness of lighter, faster bullets, then why are they working so well for the the U.S.B.P. and other agencies that have adopted this load.
4. M & S also list the .38 Special +P load as effective 75 to 79% of the time. Those police departments that have used this load, Miami-Dade and FBI among others, have also found it effective.
So what has FACKLER published. If deeper penetrating rounds worked so much better, there would be a huge body of evidence by now. Where is it?
Every time FACKLER makes a comment, I note that it is a personal attack or a criticism of how the data was collected or analized. but there are NO PERCENTAGES FROM FACKLER OR ANY OF THE M & S CRITICS!
If somebody who claims that M & S are wrong, please present YOUR EVIDENCE! I would love to see the CORRECTLY ANALIZED method that the M & S work is supposed to be lacking in.
I am just really curious to see SOME FACTS to go along with all the insults to the work done by MARSHALL & SANOW.
I note that the FIREARMS TACTICAL does not publish any statistics on stopping power. Why not? If MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong, gather your own stats and state your criteria. If M & S are wrong, the stats will show it. But, that has not happened. It is just the same old personal attacks.
Just my opinion
Jim