Will Somebody Just Show Me The Stopping Power!

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10m.m. does not work for me

mpmarty,

I have a nice heavy 10m.m. and also a .41magnum. I would not use either of them for self defence or law enforcement for several reasons.

As you pointed out, they are heavy. I may wear mine for up to 16 hours a day. Weight becomes a real factor, so to avoid pain, I limit my carry gun weight to 1.5 pounds. A few more or less is not important.
The recoil that goes with it is. If you can get .35 splits great. Do it with you 1.5 pound 10m.m. and then shoot a 72 round qualification with it. Get back to me on that.

As far as the .40S&W being weak, you are kidding. I do not think that recoil was as much of a problem for the FBI (they were using the WEAK 10m.m. mid power load). The real problem would have been GUN WEIGHT and GRIP SIZE.

As far as I know, LONG, LONG AGO, they issued shotguns. Care to put up ANY 10m.m. load ever made against a load of 00 buck or a 12 gauge slug?

AR-15 rifles have become popular because they give patrol officers range to deal with a sniper, firepower to deal with multiple assailants and a fair chance of living if they encounter heavily armed criminal like the bank robbers in California.

Jim
 
CWL

CWL,

If I remember right, the fued between FACKLER and MARSHALL began when they were both on the FBI panel as consultants. FACKLER supported the FBI'S desire to put the Miami massacre's fault on a single SILVERTIP bullet not stopping a killer, PLATT I believe. MARSHALL did not, hence, FACKLER became the FBI poster child and MARSHALL was ignored by the bureau.
To recap, with at least 6 or 7 FBI agents shooting at the bad guys (the eighth agent dropped his gun and did not shoot during the gun battle), they were cut down by ONE ASSAILANT.
The results were so bad, that lectures were given at FLETC on how the Miami massacre was a case of WHAT NOT TO DO IN A GUNFIGHT (FLETC is the FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER).
I recommend that you find a copy of one of the several gunfight aftermath reports. It will put the

As far as your mother's experience, how would a surgeon know what caliber was used when they have a through and through wound without a bullet, a fragmented hollowpoint or even a un-deformed fmj bullet.
More importantly, what would a surgeon know of the actual battle?

A surgeon sees a wounded patient brought into a hospital. They have ALREADY BEEN STOPPED! FACKLER could not see any part of an actual battle unless he interviewed others who were at the scene, read the officer's reports (were officer involved) or saw a video of it. For all he would know, it could be a piece of shrapnel from a mortar until he removes it.

ASLO, PLEASE NOTE THAT FACKLER PROBABLY DOES NOT SEE THE "ONE SHOT STOPS THAT ARE ALSO FATALITIES". They dead do not need surgery.

MARSHALL makes no claim for this, only that he reads the reports or interviews the participants. He then obtains the type of ammo used from the department or shooter or the police report.

Also, CWL, every shooting eventually becomes a matter of public record when the case is closed. MARSHALL was also a police officer at the time he started gathering his stats. In DETROIT, getting murder info would have been pretty easy for a cop.

ONE LAST THING, PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I CAN FIND SOME OF FACKLER'S STATS. THAT IS ALL I AM ASKING FOR.

Jim
 
CWL - considering that Marshall drew his data from thousands of sources, he was able to get the types of ammunition used in those shootings. Law abiding citizens and Law Enforcement generally keep track of their fighting ammunition, and there are records of the firearms used in those shootings.

As for the covers of my books, I gave up on them. Though, I was able to get my comic book artist to keep the finger in ready position, not always on the trigger. :p

I never cared for Sanow's individual work. However, ask Marshall. He put up strict guidelines for what was allowed and what wasn't allowed in his study.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/ - I lurk there, and by all means, Marshall has a lot of posts, especially about "defending him from other researchers."

Evan Marshall said:
1st of all, it isn't necessary. If it was I'm perfectly capable of protecting myself. I spent 20 yrs as a Detroit Cop-I'm neither shy or afraid to do WHATEVER'S NECESSARY. Because I don't make profanity a part of my conversation, people might think I don't get angry or even. Neither is true-there are alot of people in prison, serving life-no parole, who thought they could outsmart me.

Second-I SIMPLY DON'T CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK. As long as my wife, children, grandchildren&dog love me-I go thru life without a care.

Third, I know what I know and have seen what I've seen. As a friend in the Federal system said, "We've never shared shooting data with Evan and our results mirror his-if he made this up he should be using his talents to write Tom Clancy type novels and get rich!".

I get along fine with people at the FBI and other agencies and if they want to disagree with me-that's cool. Buford Boone is a super guy and the Bureau is fortunate to have him where he's at.
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You are so bad sometimes Ridge

I don't know wheter or not your last post is trollish or just plain truth LoL.

But at least it came from the heart and hopefully that never gets shot by someones .22lr all the stopping power one will ever need LOL!!! (Gasoline anyone???)
 
People are like houses, they have foundations, electrical systems and plumbing systems. you can break down any of the three and the house stops working.

Electrical system, cut the spine or damage the brain and fights over, no matter what you're shooting. .177 pellet to 155 howitzer. fastest of all three.

structure, break down the pelvis or the hip thigh bones, thug is immobilized, not stopped as threat, but unable to chase you down if you run. Usually this takes a pretty good sized bullet to break down. I would say at least a 38/9mm to accomplish a broken hip/pelvis.

plumbing, if they spring a leak, they got troubles, but its like a house, small leaks can just cause cosmetic damage, like a leaky pipe that stains the drywall, to a broken main, which floods the system and stops the water from moving to the head upstairs. You hit a high pressure line with something small, it will drain out the system pretty fast, chop it in half with a bigger bullet, and pressure will drop in seconds.

a .22, or 25 or .32 will kill someone if you sneak that bullet into the right spot, I want a nice big .45 that plows right on thru and settles things as fast as possible. I dread any chance of being in a gun fight or shooting. But if it happens I want it to be one of BOOOM thud, vs. bangbangbang bang bang bang..................thud
 
The problem with trying to compile "stopping power" statistics is eliminating the human variable.

It's been documented that the majority of people shot will immediately give up/fall down regardless of the severity of the wound. Not because of the pain or injury, but because that's what they think should happen to a person who's been shot. If you count everyone who falls down or instantly gives upon being shot, you have to realize that most of those people you're counting as "one shot stops" are stopping for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the caliber being used.

In other words, the biggest influence on whether a person stops or doesn't stop is how they are predisposed to react, not the size, weight or velocity of the bullet that hits them.

The next biggest influence on whether a person stops or doesn't stop (and how fast he stops) is based on where the bullet hits. If an attacker isn't predisposed to stop or doesn't realize he's been shot (which is fairly common), then he will only stop if he is incapacitated. You don't incapacitate someone by destroying a few cubic inches of tissue unless those few cubic inches of tissue are critical to the short term operation of the human that contains them. There's a LOT of tissue in the human body that can be damaged without affecting how well that human can operate in the short term. The author of one commonly quoted FBI document on handgun wounding characterized the typical handgun bullet as destroying about 0.07% of a 180lb person. But bigger calibers will destroy more tissue, right? Sure, but we're talking hundredths of a single percentage point.

Nobody likes to hear this but it's the truth.

You don't buy REAL stopping power in a box. You earn it at the range.
 
Well said JohnKSa.

I think stopping power is very important. It is what you want to happen: Bad guy comes, you shoot him, he is stopped. I wouldn't care for "killing power" or "cutting-in-half-power"--I'd be perfectly happy with stopped.

Now which gun stops best, that is a different question altogether. It will depend on your own ability to handle that particular caliber efficiently, under stress. In other words, the gun that you are best trained, most comfortable, and most confident in.

Perhaps for military and police weapons evaluators, this whole statistics war thing is pertinent. But those folks are lucky, they have lots of comrades to consult and learn from their experience. At this point, cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP, the rounds most likely used by LE and military, are quite well known for their general performance, which is what these types of organizations would use these kinds of statistics for -- generalizations.

Statistics can dance until the end of time, but what really matters at the end of the day is what works for you.
 
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Statistics can dance until the end of time, but what really matters at the end of the day is what works for you.
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Well spoken my friend well spoken.

Hey BTW welcome to THR I hope that your experience here is as good if not better then mine. I have only been here for like 2months and I love this place good knowledge and good people, not to leave out our Moderator or Admins. Speaking of them, you will find that they really do care about the members here and not just each other like some forum boards that I have been on.

All in all the people here are awesome the threads are always packed with some thing to read, and hopefully you will logout with more knowledge about firearms then you knew before you logged in. Good luck and happy posting
 
JohnKSa

I agree with your comment about the many variables when dealing with people. That is why I think developing statistics with large groups can help. That is also why I complain about FACKLER and the remarks from the FACKLERITE/heavy bullet crowd.

Aside from MARSHALL & SANOW, the few other studies all seem to support what M&S have espoused. I do not know of ANY studies (as opposed to ancedotes and opinions) that support FACKLER'S theories. I am not saying he is making it up, I just want to be able to judge for myself and not take his word on it. I have delt with enough well educated professionals to know that ego can play a big part in their work.

I think everyone agrees that a bullet needs to penetrate, but how much. The .357 magnum gets great results with shallow penetration. So how much is enough.

Overall, MASHALL & SANOW have shown that several things work for handgun users.
High velocity increases stopping power. Every round using 9m.m./.38 Special rounds with a velocity over 1,200 fps and a bullet of at least 110 grains is an effective stopper if it expands.
FMJ also has better stopping power, but does not gain a lot and overpenetration becomes a major issue.

Heavy bullets like the 230 grain .45 caliber can work well if they expand. The low velocity minumises the ability to expand unless you are using a bullet like the HYDRO SHOK or other premium bullet which works well at low velocity.
Interestingly, velocity increases do not improve HYDRO SHOK very much. The stats for the ammo that my agency used to issued show the regular velocity 9m.m. HYDRO SHOK and +P+ HYDRO SHOK are only 4 % apart.
You can increase the stopping power of heavy bullets by increasing velocity, but then recoil becomes a real factor, ala the 10m.m. and .45 +P. That limits the application to heavy guns with users who are not recoil sensitive.

One point about recoil. My agency issues the .40 S&W. We have a large amount of female and small statured male officers. They qualify just like everyone else, using the same gun. So much for .40 SHORT & WEAK garbage!
Since this round was adopted, I have NEVER HEARD ANY OF THE USERS COMPLAINING IT WAS WEAK! My department gets to use it in the field, so we would hear about it.

Jim
 
I like it when a woman can shoot a higher caliber round. Don't get me wrong it's nice if they can shoot period and the same goes for men too, I'm not sexist. Hell my wife out shoots me with my own H&K USP45. and she's a tooth pick of a woman, so that says alot in my eyes.

I have to wonder some times as to why some HP's don't bloom, for instance when I shot Winchester .45 HP (in the White box from Wal-Mart) They don't expand, and I am shooting them into a 5gal bucket filled with sand, at even 7-15yards. I do believe that they are 180gr rounds at that.

Stopping power is a must for me and so is not over-pen I have kidz to worry about in the apartment and a wife. Now I have a method that I FEEL is good for in home SD I have the first round as a Glazer (Frangilble filled with bird shot) and then a follow up JHP (Fed-Prem HST-1, some call it a bear claw?). Now this is given that I can fight thru the adrenaline and make the first hit, but if not the glazer will not (WILL NOT) penetrate thru the wall, at which that point i would have to get that Bastid with a JHP hopefully without over-pen.

Now here's a good question... which is more likely to over-pen??? If it over-pen's which would stop in the wall? (Given it be sheet-rock and boards and then sheet-rock again on the other side, standard wall i believe)

(BOTH BULLETS ARE Federal Premium HST-1)

9mm, 40cal, or 45cal???

How's that for us average joes to do some darn homework on this matter?
 
if your wife outshoots you with your hk why were you stating that she would use your p22 walther for self defense earlier in feb? I am having a hard time believing much of what you say, and feel that most of it is trollism.
 
this is why you practice often and under stress so YOU DONT MISS IN THE FIRST PLACE and have to worry about a stray bullet.

DO everything in your power to know your target and whats beyond it. I know my house inside and out and what walls are where. If the intruder is standing near the wall and I know there is a chance of someone sleeping behind it I would not shoot unless I had a great shot.

As for bullets not expanding, sand is not fluid its actually quite solid so its not valid to say a .45 winchester USA JHP will not expand because they do (when shot into gel or water)

And as for HST's in 9 .40 and .45 they will all penetrate a walls about the same. HST's are made for tactical use, they'll go through automotive glass and still expand thanks to it's design.
 
if your wife outshoots you with your hk why were you stating that she would use your p22 walther for self defense earlier in feb? I am having a hard time believing much of what you say, and feel that most of it is trollism.
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Let's see, Kyle said his wife is a tooth pick thin woman. The HK USP45 is kind of huge for such a woman to carry concealed, while the P22 is of more appropriate size.

No trollism. Just his wife making do with one concealable handgun because the PPS or the P99 Compact aren't available in his market.
 
"High velocity increases stopping power. Every round using 9m.m./.38 Special rounds with a velocity over 1,200 fps and a bullet of at least 110 grains is an effective stopper if it expands."

These are the type of blanket statements that do not stand up to scrutiny. Light, expanding bullets travelling at 1200 fps often fail to penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs precisely because they are expanding! Their isn't some magic number that all of a sudden increases stopping power like 1200fps (unless maybe you're approaching rifle velocities). So, 1199 isn't effective? Nonsense. If the bullet strikes something important hard enough to damage it, then it's a good stopper. Not because of how heavy it is , how big it is, or how fast it's going, but because of WHAT IT HIT AND DESTROYED! That is all!

"Heavy bullets like the 230 grain .45 caliber can work well if they expand."

So you are saying that a 230 grn .45 FMJ won't work because it doesn't expand?

Almost everything will work if the shooter does his part. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF STOPPING POWER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BULLET DESIGN AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SKILL OF THE SHOOTER!!!

As John KSa said "You don't buy REAL stopping power in a box. You earn it at the range."
 
Quote: Now here's a good question... which is more likely to over-pen??? If it over-pen's which would stop in the wall? (Given it be sheet-rock and boards and then sheet-rock again on the other side, standard wall i believe)

(BOTH BULLETS ARE Federal Premium HST-1)

9mm, 40cal, or 45cal???
--------------
...

If I was behind the wall, I would hope that the shooter is shooting just as you have them, 9mm first, 40cal second, and I would worry the most if the shooter was firing 45cal..

Weight and inertia works more effectively than a little more speed with less weight given the wall, being equal to each, bullet, that hits it. Kinda like a bug flying full speed with the wind to its back smashing up and on your windshield and your car is going 130mph vs a small pebble kicked up a tire and your windshied hits it going, say, 60mph, pebble speed is 15mph, impact speed is 75mph, and ya get a crack, weight always wins.. bugs always lose.


Ls
 
If I was behind the wall, I would hope that the shooter is shooting just as you have them, 9mm first, 40cal second, and I would worry the most if the shooter was firing 45cal..
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you lose all three passed the FBI protocall with flying colors
 
...

Maybe, maybe not, but given the choice of all 3, I'd hope for 9mm.. still.

Test are run under perfect, controlled, observations, yet throw a kink into the wall and I'd want to be shooting at the BG's with 45 first, then 40cal, if I had a second choice.. Car doors are an excellent example of variables in wall structures, and I've seen where 9mm gets stopped or turned, whereas a 45, thru the same variable, goes straight thru and hits home.. 40cal was second best..

Oh, and USMCDK, I don't think "sand" is a good test for JHP's and their spread ability as, I suspect highly that, it acts just like a backstop, wood, etc., as opposed to soft tissue, or less, but still much better, water, to induce a JHP to spread by means of velocity and impact with soft tissue as they designed to do and act accordingly..

Bottom line, is, there are no guarantees in life, but there are better choices with better odds in one's favor..

IMHO,


Ls
 
.45acp Fmj Does Not Work As Well As .40 S&w 155 Jhp

YES PHIL,

I am saying the .45ACP does not work as well as 9m.m. +P or .40 S&W caliber 155 grain JHP or .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
The .45ACP rates around 70% in MARSHALL & SANOW. I have not found anything to dispute this. Jeff COOPER used to give it 19 out of 20, but never gathered any stats.

As for the 1,200 fps. No, it is not magical. It is an approximation. I would carry a .40 S&W 155 grain JHP at 1,150 fps or +P+ 124 grain HYDRO SHOK at 1,179 fps without any worries. In fact, I have carried both on duty.
The 1,200 fps figure includes all 135 grain and some 155 grain .40 S&W loads. It covers 110 grain and 125 grain .357 magnum loads. It might also include the 158 grain bullets, but I worry that they will have too much recoil and penetration, better for hunting.
It would also include all +P+ and most +P 9m.m. rounds. I have found that as a rule, all of these rounds work well to different degrees.
According to M & S, the 9m.m. 124 grain +P+ HYDRO SHOK was good for ONLY 87%, this is still better than .45 FMJ. If you want to carry a .45ACP, then go with a hollowpoint. I have used either HYDRO SHOK or the WINCHESTER white box load.

Jim
 
Uhm, golden, Marshall's studies showed that 185-grain .45 ACP ranks in the high 80's, 200 grain JHP ranks in the 90's, and 230 grain JHP is neck in neck with the .357 Magnum.

However, if you're in a clime without access to JHP's, the FMJ .45 still outdoes 9mm FMJ.
 
I have not found anything to dispute this. Jeff COOPER used to give it 19 out of 20, but never gathered any stats.
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That was just a quick estimation he came up with based on anecdotal evidence from his combat experience and the experience of others. There's plenty of other anecdotal evidence to refute it.

Unfortunately, like most things in the caliber wars, the comment became holy writ for many.
 
Many have already shared my thoughts on all this.

I will add - from my having lived the years I have, seen observed and and experienced what I have and how raised:

When it is time to for something to get injured, maimed or dead, it does, no matter what anything, or anyone has written or said.

I have been in the Main OR of a hospital, and the patient stuck a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth, and pulled a trigger on a .357 loading and lived.

Fella came in to the OR, and had been shot with two, 3" shotgun shells of 00 buck, he lived.

Best recall the fella had 14 holes from gun shots, we had no idea, of what caliber, until removed.
He lived.
Still best recall he was shot with .380 , 9mm, 38spl, .357, .40 cal, and 45ACP...I forget if anything else.
"Did it ever occur to you to find cover?" - doc asked him.

We did a organ harvest on a lady, one .22 short killed her.

25ACP , the reason we did the organ harvest on two more.

.22 caliber is the reason we did another organ harvest on a bad guy.
He shot at a lady with 11 rounds of 9mm from a Glock 26 - was able to reload his Glock 26, and shoot some more and she was hit best recall 7 times with 127 gr + p

She was fighting, running , evading and got a .22 rifle and put him down with a standard velocity 40 gr lrn .22 bullet.

She was supposed to survive, and the bad guy was supposed to die.

-
1929 Colt Detective Special and Old Model 36 S&W revolvers loaded with standard pressure 158 gr LRN bullets.

One shot put down one Cow from the Colt.
One shot put down another Cow from the S&W.

I mean folded and down right there.

Just the way life is, always has been, always will be.



Focus on the target, not the equipment - Will Fennell
 
1911 with the .400 CorBOn

I'm thinking of getting
250 140 gr. Barnes XPB and
250 155 gr. Barnes XPB

So what's a good warm but not hot velocity
range plus or minus 20 FP for each

WHatever I like best I'll get more of.

I tried going through page 1 as well as page 2
just couldn't get throu it all...

Catch up with yah later.
 
Um, being that I'm not law enforcement nor have I ever been in a gun fight, thank God. I figure if the round is capible of taking a mule deer, I figure its more than enough for some loony trying to get me. Hence, my choice of a .357.
 
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