Winter cartridge ?????

[Jiml3]

I was reading that hollow point rounds when fired into a person with heavy
winter clothing, have penetration problems. The expanded bullet picks up some
of the fabric and that the heavier clothing absorbs some of the energy thereby impeding penetration.

If this is true, does it mean that FMJ rounds are more effective than JHP in winter and therefore the preferred winter cartridge?

Also, does it mean that in defensive carry, one should upgrade their caliber, such as from 9mm to 40 S&W or look for a higher speed cartridge?

Thanks for your input!

JimL3

 

[P95Carry]

Certainly, in theory ....... a hollow point filled with fabric will be unlikely to expand ...... despite that, I still have Hydra-Shoks all time, but have given the matter some thought.

In fact, the ideal solution would seem to be something like Corbon's PowRball (sp?) .... .. where the tip ball negates any fabric hang-ups and also promotes a ''FMJ'' type feed reliability too in autos.

''Winter cartridge''? .......... yeah, perhaps should be considered.

 

[Alan Fud]

I've been thinking about posting this very question. Here is the conclusion that I came up with but I'm not sure if it's valid or not

It has been demostrated that the 9mm has better penetration than the .45ACP and according to a couple of books by Marshall and Sanow, the .45ACP has better overall stopping power over the 9mm.

Does this mean that the .45ACP should be used during the warmer months when people are not wearing heavy clothing and replaced by the 9mm during colder months when penetration is more important? Yes? No?

 

[P95Carry]

Alan .. perhaps the smaller cross section of the 9mm will permit more penetration but IMO the issue here is expansion ... and the compromizing of that function if a hollow point is clogged with fabric.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Here we go...

Too much fuss about hollowpoints getting clogged with jacket material. Look at the arguements, "I'm gonna carry ball ammo because a hollowpoint might clog up with the jacket material and not expand."
So? What's the big deal then? All that's happened is that you now have a BALL ammo round! I use hollowpoints all year round. As far as the 9mm vs the .45 in penetration, that's primarily only when comparing BALL ammo. 9mm ball ammo is very penetrative, as already posted, due to it's smaller frontal area. Now or more real concern to me would be that if my carry load is a very light rapidly expanding hollowpoint (read; "shallow penetrating to begin with") now asked to shoot through heavy clothing in cold places. Do I want to bump up a weight to get a bit more penetration? Maybe for some calibers/loads, but not my particular chosen combo.

All the best

TBO

 

[Keith]

So? What's the big deal then? All that's happened is that you now have a BALL ammo round! I use hollowpoints all year round.

Eggzackly! I think this is what some old dead Prussian referred to as the "fog of war". People get fixated on the details and lose sight of the big picture!

Keith

 

[George Hill]

"SJSP"
Semi-Jacketed Soft-Point

 

[Scoob]

From what I've heard, it is a lack of expansion rather than penitration that concerns some. When the HP gets clogged it does not expand and therefore over-penitrates.

Either way I feel best to just stick with JHP's. I'm not going to change my function tested loads just because of the weather.

 

[Brigrat]

Ok, for winter carry, I use the same ammo I use during the rest of the year. I avoid ammo that fails to expand through heavy clothing at all costs no matter what time of year it is, and I also avoid ammon that doesn't penetrate deep enough. Hydra Shocks are very good at expanding in Gelatin, but are notorious for not expanding through denim/clothing, so you would in essence be getting FMJ like performance most of the time through heavy clothing. PowRBall is good at expanding, but it does tend to not penetrate quite as deeply as I like, and I would assume that it would penetrate even less through heavy winter clothes (although it should expand quite well).

FWIW, the 9mm loads that I use for winter carry, and seem to be most highly recomended over at ammo lab, and tactical forums is generally in this order:

1. Winchester RA9TP 127gr +P+
2. Winchester RA9T 147gr
3. Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P
4. Remington Golden Saber 147gr

These rounds seem to offer the most reliable expansion through clothing, and seem to offer the best penetration. They are not perfect for all situations, but for winter carry, I think they will do a good job. I have personnally seen these rounds in Gelatin tests within the last month, and was impressed with the results.

If I was loading up for a home defense type situation, I would generally use the PowRBall, because there is less risk of overpenetration through walls doors etc.

 

[DMK]

Don't forget that sometime pepole wear denim jackets in the summer also. If you hit somebody in the chest and the jacket has inside and outside pockets, that's three layers of denim that bullet need to go through.

Also keep in mind that if you choose out seasonal rounds, you have to reliability test them all. That means buying 200 or so rounds of each just to shoot off at the range to make sure the gun feeds them.

Do your homework, pick a good round and stick with it.

 

[CWL]

Try visiting this site www.ammolab.com for defensive JHPs which have been test-fired thru 4-layers of denim. Something that is consistent in your caliber should be effective during any season. Speer Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Win Rangers all seem to expand effectively.

(Note that the vaunted Hydrashock has a tendency to clog-up and not expand -probably why this 'old timer' round is going into retirement).

 

[mr. e]

I tend to carry my Kahr loaded with 9mm +p in the summer time simply because it's small and easy to conceal under light summer clothes. I figured that there'd be plenty of penetration since the Bad Guy would probably be dressed light too.

For winter, I carry my Walther P99 in 40 auto, again with Speer Gold Dots. I think the 40 packs enough wallop to go through denim or leather for that matter. Even if it doesn't, it'll leave a he!!uva bruise, and I figure the BG will go find a softer target.

 

[BluesBear]

CWL,

(Note that the vaunted Hydrashock has a tendency to clog-up and not expand -probably why this 'old timer' round is going into retirement).

What makes you think it's going into retirement?

 

[sm]

Same ammo regardless of season.
Shot placement regardless of season.

 

[Gunslinger45]

It is true that fabric can and does fill the hollow point of conventional JHP's and stop them from expanding. They rely on fluid and soft tissue to expand them. The one exception that I've seen tested is the all copper Taurus JHP. It seems to expand regardless.

 

[Jiml3]

"Same ammo regardless of season.
Shot placement regardless of season."

The above quote does not answer the question as posed!
Since most of us are not "Dirty Harry" with superb shooting skills under
extremely stressful conditions, we would be aiming at the largest target
(torso), which would have layers of winter clothing. Perhaps you are cool enough to make a head shot but most aren't. Under stressful conditions, I
would guess that a head shot was the result of luck and not the intended
target area. That said, the question was about JHP vs. FMJ and or an
increase in caliber size, ie. 9mm to 40 S&W and or increasing the grains
in the round for increased penetration

Thanks to all for your input.

JimL3

 

[George Hill]

Gunslinger45 - It may still expand, but it's fluidic pressure that causes it.
Sometimes solids can behave as fluids.

 

[sm]

Jiml3

I was not being a smart-aleck
Was trying to keep my reply short.
I carry 45 ACP,and 9mm mostly. .38spl or .357 the other 2 choices.
My #1 priority is reliability with that ammo in that gun, everytime. I then look at POA/POI. Then I see the penetration, whether SD, or hunting.
FWIW I run 500 rds min.of particular load before I carry it.
I have shot critters, bldg materials, vehicles, vehicle glass, and hunted with these.

When I find a load I like , I stick with it, buy a quanity and just grab what is handy. If I'm out of town and one brand is out of stock, I'll grab another brand that I know that works.

Nope, not an expert marksman. I try to avoid situations in the first place. I don't worry about a lot of stuff like some. Cleaning stuff, doodads, fins, flgrs, tactical this and bling bling that.

I want the gun and ammo to work everytime together, I train, and practice with the monies saved from not buying everything that comes down the pike.

Yep, I do listen to WESHOOT2, Sam, Stephen Camp and others...take under advisement and see for myself.

If for some reason All I could use was a 1911, or a K frame with only the ammo available 20 years ago...I wouldn't be worried one bit.

Perhaps that clarifies my thoughts on ammo choices. I could be wrong, and it's my butt that will suffer.

Basically, to put a slant on what Tamara said about guns in general...

All handgun ammo sucks, just some more than others.

 

[BrokenPaw]

9mm is known for penetration, but .45 is known for stopping power. So you can't go with just 9mm, because the bad guy might not stop when you hit him. But you can't go with just .45, because if the guy is wearing heavy clothing.

Y'all are missing the obvious solution. Do what I do: load your magazine up with alternating 9mm ball and .45 JHP (Or Hydra-Shok, or what-have-you) rounds. It's critically important that the top round be 9mm. This way, when you double-tap the Bad Guy, the 9mm round will punch a hole in the guy's clothing and (presumably) torso, and the immediately-subsequent .45 round will have a clear path to reach nice soft fluids, whereupon it will expand and Do The Right Thing.

You have to alternate rounds the whole way to the bottom of the mag, so that if you have multiple bad guys to deal with, you can doubletap each of them.

As an alternative to this method, for those who prefer Mozambiques to double-taps: Load the mag so that the rounds are (in top-down order) 9mm Ball (For shot 1 to COM), .45 JHP (For shot 2 to COM), and .22LR[0] (for the head shot) since it's a well-known fact that .22 rounds skitter around inside the skull and inflict massive ricochet damage. With this technique and a 15-round pre-ban mag, you can deal with up to 5 bad guys in rapid succession.

-BP

[0] Or .22WMR if you're particularly vindictive

 

[Keith]

9mm round will punch a hole in the guy's clothing and (presumably) torso, and the immediately-subsequent .45 round will have a clear path to reach nice soft fluids,

I tried that, but the .45 wouldn't fit through the 9mm hole!

Keith

 

[TheeBadOne]

Now those last 2 posts were priceless!

 

[sm]

Now those last 2 posts were priceless!

ROTLMAO

 

[BrokenPaw]

I tried that, but the .45 wouldn't fit through the 9mm hole!

Oh. Yeah. In that case, add a .223 round to the mix. They tumble, and make a bigger hole.

-BP

 

[sm]

Oh great...so which weight .223 works best with the rifling in the 1911...anybody else having feeding problems with this...should have seen how I altered the mag...

found my hacksaw still works...found the JB weld I though I'd lost...

 

[Keith]

Obviously, what's needed is a type of Sabot round - a .45 containing a .40, containing a 9mm, containing a .32, containing a .25, containing a .17. Each round expands and peels off, allowing the next round to penetrate until it expands and peels off.
You'd be able to kill really, really thick bad guys dressed in multiple layers of heavy clothes.

Note to self: contact patent attorney before sending plans to cartridge companies...

Keith