would this be an AOW holster

[CHEVELLE427]

picked this up for my keltec 380 auction states this does not fall under the ANY OTHER WEAPON rule because the slide is exposed and it is not made to not look like a gun.

looking for what is your opinion from the Leo's point of view and any hidden ATF here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4o-jEcmp-U&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0T2e3upzig&feature=player_embedded


update

 

[jdh]

It is posted on the internet so take it for what it is worth:

Wallet Holsters & ATF Regulations
by: mingtoismom ( 1184Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) Top 5000 Reviewer
117 out of 126 people found this guide helpful.
Guide viewed: 13046 times Tags: ATF | Holsters | Wallet | Gun | Pistol

The Bureau Of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms (ATF) has decided that the Wallet Holsters which allow the gun to be fired while it is still in the holster, are now considered "Any Other Weapon" (AOW) The description of AOW is a device that is designed to not look like a firearm and yet fires a bullet. So the concept is that because it looks like a wallet and mugger may percieve it as a wallet as you are shooting him, the ATF thinks they should demand a tax on it. The tip up Berettas, the Seecamp, several other pistols, have holsters specifically designed for them.

Now if you obtain one, you have to take it to a Class II manufacturer who fills out the appropriate paperwork and registers the weapon/holster combination as an AOW. The next step is to get the signature of a local law enforcement officer (Chief of Police or Sheriff), then get fingerprinted and send the whole thing off to ATF, along with (2) photographs of yourself, and $ 5.00 to cover the tax that is due.

In a few months, they will send you a tax stamp that says you can own it. Now you go back to the Class II guy and pick it up. If you plan on carrying it on your person, make sure you have a copy of this documentation with you at all times. Each state has specific laws governing the ownership of these devices so you better check first to make sure you can legally own it before you plunk down your hard earned dollars.

The paperwork is larger and harder to conceal than the gun! If you cannot find a Class II manufacturer in your area, the only alternative is to "make your own" AOW. This will cost you a whopping $ 200.00 to obtain the tax stamp. You cannot take possession of the gun and holster combination until you have been approved and have your stamp.

If you really want one of these holsters, do your homework and check it out for yourselves. A Federal Criminal Charge is something most people can do without!!!!!!

 

[Ron James]

No, that is not AOW, it looks like a gun and not a wallet. The old wallet holsters such as for the HS derringer covered every thing but the trigger. I have a wallet holster such as the one pictured for my P-32 , I have cleared it through the ATF and I have it in writing that it is cleared to go.

 

[rcmodel]

NO, it is not an AOW.

The slide is clearly visible, and it is clearly a gun in a leather Holdster.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/mattgeissal/Holdster.html

However, IMO, the thing is still a gimmick.
It doesn't cover the trigger or keep pocket lint out of the gun, and that is the #1 & #2 priority of a pocket holster in the first place.
It also appears to make a hard to grip gun even harder to control as you can only use one finger to hold on to it now.

rc

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Questions on Item reprinted in #2

Shouldn't that "Class II" be "Title II" in the explanation posted in #2?

And can't an individual make an AOW by filing a Form 1 (about as much paperwork as a Form 4) and avoid having to go through a NFA (Title II) manufacturer?

 

[Zoogster]

I would say it is pointless for the same reasons pointed out by rcmodel.

It fails to provide any of the benefits a holster is meant to provide, while making it difficult to grip the firearm well.
The trigger is not protected, making it pointless to even have the gun in the holster at all. The loose gun outside of this "holster" in your pocket would be almost the same as far as safety, except you could actually grip the handle better to remove it from your pocket and aim it.


I guess the one thing it does is break up the outline of the gun in a pocket, making it resemble a wallet or phone. You would be far better with a regular holster.
As far as the law, many such definitions have a level of discretion, and while this is probably not an AOW, someone could declare it was to make you have a bad day if desired.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

what i liked about it was if it is in the back pocket the gun set like it is suppose to , loose it seems to move around and i don't think setting on it would be that great over time, for the gun

i have talked to an ATF local agent he said it was not on the list======BUT=====
ON another form a guy said he email them a pic and they had to research it and came back as it is a AOW=======so i emailed them also to see what response i get, up side is if they say it is not a AOW it will be in writing by someone form ATF, now ill just Waite and see what reply i get.

i would think if it was an AOW the company would have been shut down by now

It also appears to make a hard to grip gun even harder to control as you can only use one finger to hold on to it now.

it will take some getting use to but there is 2 holes one for the trigger finger and the other is for the index finger , feel good when holding it but you would have to have fingers in both holes to be accurate with it

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'll bet if you ask 5 ATF agents whether that is an AOW holster or not, 2 will say yes, 2 will say no, and 1 will be undecided.

 

[rcmodel]

Art of the Hide had an ATF letter posted on thier website declaring the Holdster to be legal.

It is not an AOW as long as the whole gun isn't covered!!!

rc

 

[simonriece]

Yes this is an AOW and I'll tell you why

The pistol is now part of the holster, and as such the holster is no longer a holster, it is now an integral part of the weapon. Imagine going out to the range with a wood block secured to you chest at just the right lenth to steady an HKSP89 "look it up", or and AR15 type pistol, where you could balance the weapon and it would act as a SBR, short barrel rifle. It is not part of the weapon so I am legal.

ATF will look at this configuration as an AOW! They will make the case that it no longer looks like a firearm, even though it clearly is! They could even make the case that you are in possession of a SBR, as, in theory, you could grip the front of the holster with you thumb and index finger in order to steady it.

 

[simonriece]

Concealed Carry

I forgot to add that even if it could be registered as an AOW, the legal ramifications for you, should you need to deploy it would be costly to say the least. Lawyers have a field day with these kind of things.

 

[rcmodel]

NO, it isn't an AOW.

If it covered the slide it would be, but it doesn't.

See this:
http://www.concealmentconcepts.com/pocketpal.htm

rc

 

[NavyLCDR]

Ask 5 people on the internet if that is an AOW holster and 2 will say it is, 2 will say it isn't, 1 will be honest and say they don't know (or tell you to get a lawyer!)

 

[simonriece]

Error on the side of caution when dealing with the ATF, local and state government.

 

[dogtown tom]

ATF NFA Handbook
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

2.1.5 Any other weapon. Firearms meeting the definition of “any other weapon” are weapons or
devices capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the
energy of an explosive. Many “any other weapons” are disguised devices such as penguns, cigarette
lighter guns, knife guns, cane guns and umbrella guns.

Below are two wallet holsters that ATF determined were AOW's. Note how the holster completely covers the firearm, yet it can still be fired? THAT is the determining factor. As the holster in the OP is not fully covered it is not an AOW.

simonriece The pistol is now part of the holster, and as such the holster is no longer a holster, it is now an integral part of the weapon.

Uh.....so what? It isn't permanent and is easily removed. Has no bearing on whether it is an AOW.

Imagine going out to the range with a wood block secured to you chest at just the right lenth to steady an HKSP89 "look it up", or and AR15 type pistol, where you could balance the weapon and it would act as a SBR, short barrel rifle. It is not part of the weapon so I am legal.

As long as the wood block is not attached to the AR15 pistol you have not created anything other than the impression you are an "eccentric" with a wood block on his chest. A SBR needs a buttstock, a barrel of less than 16" and an overall length of less than 26". What does an SBR have to do with this holster? (Nothing)

ATF will look at this configuration as an AOW!

Nope.

They will make the case that it no longer looks like a firearm, even though it clearly is!

Nope.

They could even make the case that you are in possession of a SBR, as, in theory, you could grip the front of the holster with you thumb and index finger in order to steady it.

Again, as it does not have a buttstock and is clearly designed to be fired with one hand it is most definitely NOT a rifle- which would be necessary to be classified as a "short barreled rifle" (or SBR). A handgun with a second grip may be classified as an AOW. Whether you could grip it with your thumb and index finger to "steady it" does not make it an AOW. There are a few folks who use both hands to grip their handguns ya know Using two hands to grip a handgun does not make it NFA.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

IMO that is not a AOW as it does not try to disguise the handgun. The slide and muzzle are clearly visible and the bullet does not exit through the holster.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

In lay terms "any other weapon" AOW is a concealable
weapon that is not recognizable as a conventional
pistol or revolver, including such firearms as the
.410 HandiGun shot pistol, made as a hunter or
trapper sidearm, similar to a sawn off shotgun but
originally made and sold as a one hand gun w/o
shoulder stock.

AOW also includes any concealable firearm so disguised
that its nature as a weapon is not apparent.

ATF Firearms Guides on Wallet Gun
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#wallet-holster
especially notes the completely enclosed wallet holsters
for NAA revolver and High Standard derringer.

www.atf.gov also directs the reader to a 1997 newsletter for FFLs

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-1997-08.pdf

ffl-newsletter-1997-08.pdf

WALLET GUNS

ATF has received numerous inquiries regarding
wallet guns and wallet holsters.

As defined in section 5845(e) of the National
Firearms Act (NFA), the term "any other weapon"
includes certain concealable weapons. Various
types of disguised weapons such as cane guns, belt
buckle guns, and briefcase guns (with remote
control firing mechanisms (with remote
control firing mechanisms) fall within the "any
other weapon" category. It is unlawful to make,
possess, or transfer such firearms without
complying with the provisions of the NFA.

During the 1970's, ATF determined that various
small handguns combined with certain "wallet
holsters" fall into the "any other weapon" category
and are subject to the provisions of the NFA.
These wallet holsters are generally rectangular in
shape and are designed to disguise the appearance of
the handgun, and are designed to allow the weapon
to be fired while it is contained within the wallet.
The handgun contained with the wallet holster
constitutes an NFA firearm.

A conventional pistol or revolver which is
possessed without the wallet holster would not be
an NFA firearm. A wallet holster alone is not
subject to NFA controls and cannot be registered
or transferred as a firearm. Firearms contained in
conventional holsters, trouser pockets, purses,
gun cases, or various other forms of carrying
cases have not been determined to fall within the
definition of an "any other weapon," even though
it may be possible to discharge a firearm while it
is carried in such a manner.

In order for an individual to lawfully "make" a
wallet gun, that is to say, acquire both the
handgun and the wallet holster, the person must
first submit an Application to Make and Register
a Firearm (ATF Form 1), pay a $200.00 making
tax, and receive approval of the application. The
serial number appearing on the handgun should
be used to register the firearm. Transfer of a
wallet gun requires an approved transfer
application and payment of a $5 transfer tax. A
transfer will not be approved unless the wallet
gun has been registered to the transferor.

Mere sale or possession of the wallet holster
without the handgun is not a violation of the
NFA. However, 18 U.S.C. section 2 provides that
a person who aids or abets another person in the
commission of an offense is also responsible for
the offense. Therefore, sale or distribution of a
wallet holster with knowledge that it will be used
to make an unregistered NFA firearm may also
place the seller or distributor of the holster in
violation of the NFA.

IANAL but what I come away with is this:
a handgun combined with certain wallet
holsters is an AOW wallet gun if the holster
is designed to disguise the appearance that it
is a handgun, and designed to allow the weapon
to be fired while it is concealed within the wallet.

All caveats on reliability of internet legal opinions apply.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

still waiting on a reply from ATF by email, local guy talked about alot that has been said here, his big no it is not an AOW is it is not fixed into the holster as to make it one piece. there is no screws to hold the gun in place, it slips in and out BARREL AND SLIDE IS EXPOSED and was not on the list.

but something on paper would be better then a person on the phone

but like someone said 2 out of 2 will say it is , same thing on another form i posted this .

if an email or letter or black SUV shows up ill let you know, and what was said about yes/no. always good to find something we can try to figure out just what the government is trying to say. like the tax code,
IRS HAS NOT A CLUE WHAT SOME OF IT MEANS

 

[CHEVELLE427]

update

i emailed 2 companies that make this holster and ask for any info from ATF as is or is not an AOW, this just in

 

[CHEVELLE427]

anybody jump in anytime,

 

[NavyLCDR]

anybody jump in anytime,

Why? It's settled. I'm surprised the thread is still open. Art? Art? Wherefore art thou, Art?

 

[CHEVELLE427]

nope just all the yes no maybe ,somebody always has some comeback.
guess all is settled.

 

[Art Eatman]

Hey, there's more to life than the Internet. There's two hours this afternoon in a dentist's chair, which was no fun whatsoever. The the Aggies managed to show that they can do almost anything with a football except autograph it--including fumbles and interceptions.

But I got here soon as I could, little darlin.' Just for you.