Over seas without a gun, and I wish I'd had one. Sharing an experience.

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Never been to Europe, all I can offer is this. My dad always put his wallet in his front pocket when we went to events or malls and things like that. I always thought it was kinda overkill and ridiculous. I grew up in Minnesota and at the time it was pretty tame. Long story short he gave up the practice 15 years or so ago and got pick pocketed. Ended up with bank accounts and credit cards all over the place for several years. Better to be safe than sorry!
 
Why wife disagrees. She has been to Spain, Germany, France, and the Czech Republic on her own as well as many other countries with me where she has ventured out on her own. The most recent trip was to the Czech Republic and she was with a female coworker that was miserable to travel with due to paranoia. This woman wouldn't even walk from a restaurant to the hotel, in downtown Prague, surrounded by hundreds of people, because she was afraid she would be kidnapped and forced into sex slavery! After that my wife left her at the hotel and enjoyed the rest of the trip alone.
How long ago? Today I wouldn't go out alone in Paris or most of the rest of France, Brussels, or a lot of places in Germany. Czech Republic is a whole nother story, that would be fine.
 
Interesting OP. I have spent a lot of time in both London and Paris for work. I have rarely felt threatened anywhere in the UK. Last time I was London, I stayed in Kensington, a pretty upper scale neighborhood and I saw dozens of cops walking around the high street, carrying MP5s. Also saw plenty of MP5 toting cops near Big Ben and at #10 Downing Street. We did a two week trip last year to England and stayed five days in London, hung out with 40k stoned freaks to watch Summer Solstice at Stonehenge, then rented a car and did a trip through Salisbury, Bath and the Cotswolds. Did not feel any real threats anywhere. Most of the areas we were in were pretty touristy, had a wonderful time.

Paris, been there five times. I am a photographer/cinematographer and am often toting around lots of expensive camera gear out in the open, shooting at night, by myself. One time, I was on the Metro, riding with my wife, carrying a steel tripod and I could tell that a guy sitting across from us was sizing us up for a pickpocket, or grab and run, I could just tell by how he was eyeing us, I had my camera bag and tripod. When we got up to disembark the Metro, I began waving my relative heavy steel tripod around casually, remarking out loud, in French, "Wow, I bet getting your skull crushed by this would be pretty painful" to my wife. I also made direct eye contact with the guy. He took off. That's the only time in Paris that felt sketchy. We rented a car and drove down to Grasse, Eze, Nice. On the way, we were in a crowd in Aix en Provence, standing in line to get some lunch when a girl pick pocketed a tourist's purse, just snatched it and ran. I made chase but she was faster than I was and had a head start. The woman who had her purse snatched was screaming, it was crazy. On the same trip, we stayed in Cannes and were riding a public bus. My wife and I were the only ones on the bus who were not Muslim and my wife's exposed legs were drawing death stares from a lot of people. France is more Muslim than not now, they gave away their country.

I agree with the others, situational awareness is number one. Not looking like or acting like a tourist would be number two. Anytime I travel to a non-industrialized country, I research and hire a "fixer" whose job is to make sure that we are not hassled, shaken down or kidnapped. I get references from known sources and have had very good fixers all over the world. I don't do that in industrialized countries, but in Morocco, India, Vietnam, anywhere like that, any African or Muslim country especially, just hire a fixer, they can keep you out of trouble and make it so you don't get into trouble, well worth the cost. Out fixer in Morocco saved our butts big time this past May. We did a work expedition out to the Sahara and on the way back, I had a Go Pro on the hood of our van to shoot time lapse video of the road trip and scenery. Coming back from the desert, into the town we were staying in, we were stopped by a couple of cops at a roadside checkpoint. Our fixer spoke them in Arabic and it started getting pretty heated. Turned out I had accidentally shot time lapse video of them coming into the checkpoint. Moroccan police do not like being on video, at all. Our fixer smoothed it over (he knew one of the cops) and he told me to delete the footage, which I did. But think of what could have happened if we wouldn't have had our fixer. Get it? I had no idea there even was a checkpoint coming back into the city so it was my bad, but thank goodness for our fixer.
the thing is you cant shoot some one in the back running away with a purse or a camera. you would be in severe trouble in the USA for that. even a justified shooting when you win in court can ruin you
 
the thing is you cant shoot some one in the back running away with a purse or a camera. you would be in severe trouble in the USA for that. even a justified shooting when you win in court can ruin you
That's why in Ohio and other states, an assailant can't recover damages from his victim in a justified shooting.

If you get shot trying to rob me, you can sue me all day long. BY LAW, you cannot recover if it's a justified shooting.

Good luck finding a lawyer who'll take your frivolous suit on a contingent basis for 1/3 of NOTHING.
 
That's why in Ohio and other states, an assailant can't recover damages from his victim in a justified shooting.

If you get shot trying to rob me, you can sue me all day long. BY LAW, you cannot recover if it's a justified shooting.

Good luck finding a lawyer who'll take your frivolous suit on a contingent basis for 1/3 of NOTHING.
you will not have trouble from the guy you shot it will be from the law. cant shoot somebody in the back over a camera. can wal mart employees shoot and kill people they catch shoplifting?? you would ruin your life even the slight chance you would win in court
 
the thing is you cant shoot some one in the back running away with a purse or a camera. you would be in severe trouble in the USA for that. even a justified shooting when you win in court can ruin you

You seem to be taking liberty with the facts. No where in post 49 does it mention shooting someone in the back because they were running away with a purse or camera. I'm not sure at what point we went from being unarmed and uncomfortable in a foreign country due to the situations people experienced to Walmart employees shooting shoplifters, but when we start to stray in this manner the discussions get shut down.
 
you will not have trouble from the guy you shot it will be from the law. cant shoot somebody in the back over a camera. can wal mart employees shoot and kill people they catch shoplifting?? you would ruin your life even the slight chance you would win in court
That doesn't contradict what I said, since in most jurisdictions, shooting a non-threat in the back wouldn't be ruled justified.

To reiterate, in Ohio the aggressor (as well as his heirs, assigns, etc.) who gets shot in self-defense (or lawful defense of another) cannot collect damages for death or bodily harm arising from his own criminal actions.
 
salt&battery said:
the thing is you cant shoot some one in the back running away with a purse or a camera. you would be in severe trouble in the USA for that. even a justified shooting when you win in court can ruin you​
You seem to be taking liberty with the facts. No where in post 49 does it mention shooting someone in the back because they were running away with a purse or camera. I'm not sure at what point we went from being unarmed and uncomfortable in a foreign country due to the situations people experienced to Walmart employees shooting shoplifters, but when we start to stray in this manner the discussions get shut down.

Perhaps he is, but I see it about the same way. If I'm understanding it correctly, the OP is concerned about pickpockets, purse snatchers, and con artists. Yep, they are real risks, but none of those scenarios is, in and of itself, life threatening. Lethal force would probably be disproportionate.
 
When ever I travel internationally I order a large cut of meat for my first dinner and simply pocket the sharp knife the give me to cut it.
You can always stop on your way out for a final meal and "drop" it off.
I've never had an issue, but I refuse to not be prepared as best I can in case one comes up.
 
I recently had the opportunity of a lifetime to take a week long vacation in England and in France for a very low cost...
I don't mean to discount your experiences, just offering an alternate viewpoint. Maybe the reason you encountered so many people giving you the eye and sizing you up, was because you were being so vigilant yourself? I have a friend who takes the "sheepdog" mentality perhaps a bit... too seriously, and when we're out in a public place he's constantly giving everyone and everything the stink eye as he scans for threats. Not surprisingly, he gets more than his fair share of suspicious looks, which then feeds his suspicion, etc. It's a self-reinforcing cycle.

Anyway, I've never felt I needed a gun when in a foreign country. I have been pickpocketed once, in China, but it was done so deftly a gun would have made no difference. I walked alone through Paris for seven days and the most dangerous things I encountered were Parisian rudeness and high prices. Very lovely city otherwise, the whole place looks like it belongs on a postcard. I don't hang out in touristy spots and I don't play street games. Sorry you had annoying friends, that can really add to travel stress.
 
Perhaps he is, but I see it about the same way. If I'm understanding it correctly, the OP is concerned about pickpockets, purse snatchers, and con artists. Yep, they are real risks, but none of those scenarios is, in and of itself, life threatening. Lethal force would probably be disproportionate.

Those were some of the threats mentioned, and I agree that if those were the only threats one faced lethal force is disproportionate. If you read through the posts, however, other threats were mentioned as well. In regards to twisting what was written in post 49, nothing is gained by people doing that. I'd like to think we're better than that.
 
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Those were some of the threats mentioned, and I agree that if those were the only threats one faced lethal force is disproportionate. If you read through the posts, however, other threats were mentioned as well. In regards to twisting what was written in post 49, nothing is gained by people doing that. I'd like to think we're better than that.
Sorry, I'm lost. Post 49 was a link to an unbreakable umbrella.
 
I don't mean to discount your experiences, just offering an alternate viewpoint. Maybe the reason you encountered so many people giving you the eye and sizing you up, was because you were being so vigilant yourself? I have a friend who takes the "sheepdog" mentality perhaps a bit... too seriously, and when we're out in a public place he's constantly giving everyone and everything the stink eye as he scans for threats. Not surprisingly, he gets more than his fair share of suspicious looks, which then feeds his suspicion, etc. It's a self-reinforcing cycle.

Anyway, I've never felt I needed a gun when in a foreign country. I have been pickpocketed once, in China, but it was done so deftly a gun would have made no difference. I walked alone through Paris for seven days and the most dangerous things I encountered were Parisian rudeness and high prices. Very lovely city otherwise, the whole place looks like it belongs on a postcard. I don't hang out in touristy spots and I don't play street games. Sorry you had annoying friends, that can really add to travel stress.
As you say, not to discount the OP's experiences, but sometimes we risk creating "self-fulfilling prophecies." I don't mean to suggest that this applies to the OP, but I was always taught that our perceptions are colored by our own expectations and character. An honest man expects everyone else to be honest; a thief assumes everyone is out to cheat him, etc. I've dealt with threats that went beyond the hypothetical, and I've known physical fear. However, I made a pact with my younger self that I'd rather die young in a misadventure than die an old man who had lived a fearful, circumscribed, life. (Made it to 65, so far.) I've been wary of many creepy-looking people on public transportation, but if I had stayed home (not suggesting the OP advocates this), I would never have been on the Paris metro on Valentine's Day, when two strangers got up and danced through the car to the tune of an accordion player who was playing for tips.
 
Does anyone seriously think I'd shoot someone, much less in a foreign country, over a petty theft? Seriously? Where was that stated? Or in the back while they are fleeing?

I have a good job. I can afford to replace things. Heck, if I can afford to go on the trip at all that says a lot about my ability to not worry that much about small things. I would never shoot someone in the back as they were fleeing, and I'd never shoot someone to protect things, unless they were in my home and I thought they were going to harm me to obtain my property. But that is again to prevent bodily harm, not to protect a thing.

I had my credit card, driver's license, bank card in case cash was needed, and passport on me at all times in an anti scanning bag from Tripple A. It was tied across my chest, under a fleece, and also heavy leather coat, that was zipped up almost the entire time, and the bag strap was hidden away so as not to give away the location of valuables. Even if someone had stolen my truly valuable bag, two phone calls will shut down my credit card and bank card, and I had a coppy of my passport in my bag to take to the American embassy if my citizenship was in question. Yeah, that would have all been a pain, but I don't consider it as justifiable reason to end someone's life.

Here was the concern. My dumbass friend gets involved in a shell game with no cash to bet, which is exactly what he did, and then can't pay when he loses. Does anyone here think a shell game on the street is run by legitimate businessmen? What happens if the game operator or his buddy decides to follow us and recover their money through violent means? At that point, armed or unarmed, I was the only individual in my group who would have had a fighting chance at turning back an assault.

The train station incident was highly disturbing as well. The looks on the faces of the two guys approaching my friend said business to me. Would they have turned violent if he resisted? How can we guess? It was dark, not all that crowded, and a beer bottle upside the head and a short sprint, and they could have been out of sight and never seen again. I don't know that a gun would have helped, but I would have liked to have had one all the same.

I haven't mentioned it much at this point, but there were vagrants and beggars approaching us in the metro tunnels and street side asking for money. They seemed fairly innocuous, but some of them were impaired by either drugs or alcohol, or both. When you are drunk or high, and desperate for money and food, how good of decisions do you make?

I don't care about stuff, in those circumstances. "Here, take my money. I'll make more." However, do you think I could live with myself if I stood by and watched an old man get beat up, or his slightly younger wife get beat up? Do you think I could live with myself if they decided to take a non paying better's bad decision out on my girlfriend in some way?

I felt there was POTENTIAL for a violent encounter based on the blundering actions of my travel companions, as they made themselves open to crime with a total lack of situational awareness. Would any of the POTENTIAL situations have turned violent, and warranted lethal force? We can't answer that, and conjecture is pointless.

However, since when do we carry a gun because we know we will be subjected to criminal attack, or violent crime? If we know that will happen, we have a responsibility to avoid the circumstance. We carry guns because of the possibility. I felt, GIVEN WHAT I SAW PERSONALLY, since I was there, that a violent encounter was possible on this one particular trip. As a result, I would have preferred to have had a firearm with me, rather than not.

Anyone who is asserting that any crime would have been a petty theft, in regards to my particular case, is speculating.
 
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Perhaps he is, but I see it about the same way. If I'm understanding it correctly, the OP is concerned about pickpockets, purse snatchers, and con artists. Yep, they are real risks, but none of those scenarios is, in and of itself, life threatening. Lethal force would probably be disproportionate.
Thank you Flint . that is what I thought but now it has changed
 
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I don't mean to discount your experiences, just offering an alternate viewpoint. Maybe the reason you encountered so many people giving you the eye and sizing you up, was because you were being so vigilant yourself? I have a friend who takes the "sheepdog" mentality perhaps a bit... too seriously, and when we're out in a public place he's constantly giving everyone and everything the stink eye as he scans for threats. Not surprisingly, he gets more than his fair share of suspicious looks, which then feeds his suspicion, etc. It's a self-reinforcing cycle.

That is a legit question, and it's one I asked myself in this situation, and in the past.

Here's the thing. I definitely got noticed over there. I asked my girlfriend as an independent observer, and she confirmed that people took notice of me, and I'm guessing it's because of my appearance. I don't exactly fit in with European fashion. I'm 6'3" barefoot, and about 6'4" with my boots on. I'm about 200 lbs and in pretty decent shape. I've got multiple earrings, tattoos that are only visible in summer, and I have a shaved head and a goatee. I was also sporting a heavy leather coat. So I probably look like a biker, even though I drive a pickup. One guy wanted to draw a caricature of me, and I would have happily let him if we'd had more time, but we were trying to catch a boat.

However, they seemed to be looks of interest over someone who didn't fit the norm. I noticed them, but they didn't really bother me. I grew up in a city and was taught you keep your eyes forward accept to look over your shoulder now and then. Staring at people where I grew up was a good way to end up in a fist fight. So I did not stare back or give the stink eye. In fact I said, and normally say hello to anyone I pass on the street and make eye contact with. It's just polite.

The looks I saw some individuals giving my companions was of the fox licking it's chops as it stared at the hen house. I can accept that perhaps my particular sense of duty given the physically less capable companions I was with may have made me hyper vigilant. But when you have a companion who is consistently wandering off and paying no attention to his surroundings, it starts to make you pretty cautious. I have no doubt that some of the things I noticed were non-threats, but there were a few incidents that made the hair on my arms stand up (no hair on the back of my neck or my head).
 
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OP, how are you with your hands? Can you handle yourself in a CQC situation?

I can't wrap my head around the concept of feeling "naked without a firearm" in these type of scenarios. With rare exception, no one should feel that way. There are several tactics and strategies that can be deployed in NPEs. Tools like the walking cane and Unbreakable Umbrella, mentioned previously. Others like the tactical flashlight, and various other "off the radar" types of things that can be used. Plenty of options available to you for when you can't carry.
 
paranoia strikes deep
into your life it will creep
starts when your always afraid
I think it was buffalo springfield song... stop children whats that sound :evil:
 
When ever I travel internationally I order a large cut of meat for my first dinner and simply pocket the sharp knife the give me to cut it.
You can always stop on your way out for a final meal and "drop" it off.
I've never had an issue, but I refuse to not be prepared as best I can in case one comes up.

I can think of many other ways to be prepared that don't involve larceny.

At the same time, what are you going to say when the waiter in London calls over the local "Bobby" or the waiter in Paris attracts the attention of Gendarmerie and tell them that you have just absconded with their property? Telling the authorities that you are "borrowing" it for self-defense will get you in deeper trouble than the simple theft of the knife in those places.
 
Situational awareness + my 2 Spyderco Enduras, one in my pocket and one in my right sock, and a Swiss Army "Tinker" have been with me around the States and the world. I've never had a problem with them in my stored luggage.
 
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