Federal appeals court sides with physicians in ‘docs vs. Glocks’ case

I was asked that yrs ago, before Obama was in office. I raised my shirt to uncover a s&w mod 12 and told the doctor, ''No I don't, it's right here''. It was actually a new partner he brought in and I needed an app. asap so I saw him instead.
I told him, I'm here for a miserable cold, not to answer questions about my personal life. The visit actually went well and by the end he knew where I was coming from. He asked me some questions about carrying a firearm and talked about some choices for a HD gun for him. Turns out he had been thinking about it for some time.
Fast forward 20 yrs later, my new doc is a conceal carry guy. Ran out and bought one of the first XDS45,S.

My doctor got his carry permit years before I did; and he went pronghorn hunting years before I did. A good Doctor is good to find...

Good Ol' Boy said:

Why does a doc need to know whether or not a patient owns guns, or where they are kept? What role does that play in the docs duty to caring for the patients health?

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TAG2501 said:

doctors have no need to ask or get into that topic. this is Obamanation <deleted>

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Lighten up Francis...
As a psychiatrist I treat suicidal patients frequently (and self-admitted homicidal pts on a few occasions). It's the standard of care to ask about access to firearms (not ownership) because it's a modifiable risk factor. It may surprise you, but most suicidal patients don't get sent to the hospital- they get sent home. I also ask about access to stockpiles of medications which potentially have high lethality. And it's mainly done to cover my rear. I document, "I instructed the patient to give their firearms to such and such family member until their suicidal thinking resolves..." or "I instructed the parent to store their firearms at another location inaccessible to the patient..."
I know that if someone's determined to kill themselves they'll find a way. But it's often an impulsive act and it's reasonable to make an attempt to eliminate- if only temporarily- any modifiable risk factors. I've also had family members take possession of patient's medications as well (and actually do this far more frequently). If I don't document that I assessed for these risk factors and someone does kill themselves then I get sued- it's that simple. I can't speak to reasons why docs in other specialties ask these questions but I suspect it's primary docs (family and internal medicine) asking routine mental health screening questions on a form. There are plenty of physicians who are 2A supporters and give thousands to RKBA causes but the colleges/associations of various specialties (especially pediatrics) are definitely anti-2A. Incidentally, I'm not a member of, nor do I support, my own specialty's advocacy group for that very reason.

ATLDave said:

Doctors aren't law enforcement officers. They ought to be able to ask whatever they want. And patients ought to be able to able to refuse to answer or find another doctor.

Taking away a private physician's free speech rights ain't the answer. This wasn't a hard case.

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Is any answer that I give to a physician about firearms, covered by HIPPA privacy? I bet not.

I didn't realize we had wandered from general PCP to the psych ward. Apples to oranges.

Anyone who does not have the common sense to not go shoot clays or whatever after a major surgery likely shouldn't have guns in the first place. No one with common sense needs a doctor telling them not to shoot guns for a while after a shoulder surgery any more than they need to be told not to play in the church softball games for a while. That goes for just about any medical situation you can think of.

Unfortunately common sense is a foregone notion nowadays. Folks want to be told what to do because they're too incompetent to figure simple things out for themselves.

If you're one that's really that worried about lead levels then just have yourself tested regularly. No need to go into details though.

Frank Ettin said:

Nonsense. Often someone who is suicidal or has psychiatric problems is first identified as such by his PCP.

I'm sure any physicians participating here are grateful for your tips on how to practice medicine.

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I'll just agree to disagree with your first statement and leave it at that. No sense in getting into a "match" with someone who can end the discussion at will.

On your second statement, it's interesting how you interpret my comment about a patients duty to "common sense", and respond with a doctor "practicing medicine", as if the two have anything at all to do with each other.

If someone has just had a shoulder surgery, all that's needed from the doc is, "don't do any activities that will inhibit the healing of the shoulder". There's no need to try and list every activity that might fall into that category. Thus, "common sense". That is the detachment from "practicing medicine".

One does not need a degree or be a practicing doctor to understand what I am talking about. However, as I mentioned earlier, common sense is largely a foregone notion nowadays.

When I went in for a pre-vasectomy appointment I asked my wife if I would need to take off my pants during the appointment or just talk. She said it would just be talk and maybe BP/ weight type stuff so I had my usual piece of Austrian polymer in my waistband. (legal here, and since my kids' pediatrician is in the same building I knew there were not signs on the door) When the doctor told me to drop trau so that he could examine me in a VERY personal way, I had to explain that I was wearing a gun. He response was "Well, can you take it off and stow it for a few minutes?" I did. He was not bothered by it at all. My primary care doc would not have to ask either as she has seen mine on multiple occasions.

That being said, If I was ever asked that question I would most likely lie and say no. Mostly to avoid the wasted time on the follow up questions and safety speeches.

Kleanbore said:

Do you have a basis for claiming that the statement is not true?

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Just my misses who has been in the field for going on 15yrs.

But she doesn't have an MD in her title so any experiences she's shared with me would likely hold little water with the hard nosed folks here.

Nonetheless I've been privy to real world experiences. Everyone is free to think what they want though....

The invalidated measure was as inane as it was un-Constitutional, nothing but a ridiculous slippery slope fallacy.

Second Amendment rights were not ‘in jeopardy,’ but the First Amendment rights of doctors clearly were – as their right to free speech was indeed violated.

RKRCPA said:

My opinion, it's a legitimate question if you are trying to determine if there are children at risk due to unsafe storage practices.

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Not their job. Law enforcement and social workers are tasked with ensuring safe & healthy home environments for minor children. Your PCP or any other doctor has no such charter.

Let's face it, there are a lot of dumbasses with guns out there and they need to be found and educated. The question is how do you find them and get good info to them. Personally, I think that a brochure with objective, relevant information mailed to every household in the country would be a good start. Would it be overkill inasmuch as it would be sent to people who either already know better or people that don't own firearms? Sure. But let's face it, there are way too many accidental deaths due to firearms. Something should be done, anybody have a better idea?

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There aren't that many "accidental" deaths (especially not truly accidental, as opposed to saving face for suicides). Trite and callous as the idiom may seem in this context, liberty is not certified safe. If you want to live in a nanny state, move.

Mr Flintstone wrote:
"...I keep it in the closet next to my Illudium Q36 explosive space modulators."

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Thank you. Reading that really made my day!

Strangely enough, I've never had a doctor ask me about guns.

I suppose it may have to do with the fact that when I moved to town, my first doctor had one of the biggest gun collections in town. When he retired, I was passed on to his partner who carried a 9mm pistol in her purse even before the state enacted concealed carry.

Most of the time, there's no need to ask. When you come into clinic wearing hunting camouflage, or some other article of clothing with a gun/shooting related logo; or the one time I had a patient come into clinic wearing his empty holster....Eventually, you hang out around gun people enough you're able to start getting a sense of whether someone is likely a gun person or not.

Most physician gun owners won't advertise that they are into guns, or present themselves in a way that might make others think they are since the medical community in general is overall anti-gun. Not always great for inter-professional relationships if your anti-gun colleagues know you like to shoot...

Doctor: "Do you have any firearms in your home?"
Patient: "Do you and your wife have sex with dogs?"
Doctor: "How is that relevant?"
Patient: "Precisely."

I guess I'm one of the fortunate ones. I had the same orthopedic surgeon for 20 years, until he passed away recently. He treated my grandmother, mother and later my wife, and was a guest at our wedding. I knew he owned a Harley, and was a Vietnam vet, and I knew he had more than a passing interest in guns in general. One afternoon, my partner and I had just gotten off duty, and were cruising the local gun show. We ran into him, and before I could finish introducing him, he stuck out his hand and said "Good to meet you, I'm Bob." We then had a LONG conversation about M16\AR15s and the benefits of the A1 over the A2.

Yes, any answer you give a provider in an official capacity DOES fall under HIPPA, but I can understand where some would be nervous. It is sometimes violated ad you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube...

Many years ago, my grandfather was diagnosed with Shy-Drager Syndrome, a neurological condition that results in multiple system failure. When he needed a neurologist, he wound up with a fairly young one, who seemed a little impertinent, and while he asked relevant questions, the way he did it didn't make you want to answer them. The young man asked a question about sexual function, which IS relevant, but the WAY he asked it tended to turn off the WWII generation off a little but, it you know what I mean. My grandfather looked at him with that look of patrician disdain that he did when considering an impertinent child, and looked out the window.

"Did you hear me", he yelled, assuming he was suddenly deaf.
"Yes, and everyone else can hear you."

The look back indicated that he simply would not answer the question, as he found it to be unseemly. Now, I would have answered it, because I see it as relevant. The doc SHOULD have explained WHY he was asking the question, and would have gotten better compliance, but chose not to. Point being that both men acted within their rights. One to ask, and the other to not answer.

The truth of the matter is that a provider CAN ask you anything he so chooses. (First Amendment right to free speech) YOU have the right to answer or not as you see fit. (Fifth Amendment right to remain silent) Please understand that if you don't, you might not receive the best care available. As an adult, only YOU can weigh the options and make the decision.

As far as I understand, not answering your doctor is not a case of using 5th amendment rights - its just not answering your doctor. You don't need a "right" for that, because you are not forced to answer truthfully anyway.

If you don't answer that's just an admission that you do. You can always lie but that is a personal decision. I have never been asked that question. If I ever am I'll cross that bridge when it appears.

Do you suppose many citizens in a Doctor's office/controlled environment feel compelled to answer uncomfortable questions? The Doctor after all is seen as an arbiter in life and death. That is a very dominate position.
I know nothing about the legality of the question. But my supposition is from human nature.
I have a very old friend and Vietnam War Vet in Portland, Oregon. He trustingly answered in the affirmative regarding ownership of firearms. He was immediately hit with Anti-Gun statistics. He was told for the safety of his community to dispose of his firearms. No claim here regarding Constitutional or any other laws.