Don't Think I Was Out Of Line But I Pissed The Guy Off.

My concern always goes up when I say something as an acknowledgement and get what I call the "Armstrong" response...subject looking down at the ground/floor or up at the ceiling/sky.(Armstrong ceiling tile or floor tile).
I often get the Armstrong treatment when I try and make eye contact.

I try and have my American Arms resolver in the palm of my hand, or at least a Kershaw flipper for use at bad breath range, as they can be on you in an instant.
And I don't care what strangers think about me or my mannerisms.

Trunk Monkey said:

What I got from what Sam said was that my behavior was (on some level) antagonistic. It had to have been or I wouldn't have got the same response from to totally separate encounters.

My goal is to avoid an encounter, not instigate one. I was in almost exactly the same situation last night. In stead of standing on the steps staring at the guy I walked quickly to my car (putting it between me and the person) and started unlocking the door. The response was completely neutral, which is what I'm going for.

For those who might be wondering why some random stranger in the parking lot gets my guard up, I think I've said it before but I live in a funky neighborhood. There are homeless people wandering around here at all ours of the night, there have been a couple of (reported) assaults and robberies and a few rapes. It's a good part of town to be cautious in.

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It's good that you mention that again. A lot of folks here live in rural areas and it's hard for them to visualize what it's like for folks like us. I don't even wanna post what the crime statistics for my neighborhood look like.

I have never taken offense from the way someone looked at me or reacted as I walked by. If I have offended someone else in this way, I didn't notice and don't care. If someone is that sensitive it isn't on everyone else to worry about their feelings.

Sheesh. That seems to miss the point. If you were doing something that was seriously affronting other people, more than once in a short space of time, and they were so discomfited by it that they made you aware of it, you certainly would know and you certainly would care.

It's part of being a functional human being operating in a society. Social cues and politeness. It's how we get along without causing ourselves needless trouble and conflict.

Trunk monkey asked an important question about how to avoid negative situations and maybe a third of the responses, if taken at face value, would indicate that the respondents are too inept at basic human skills to understand the question.

I doubt that's really the case, but that's how it comes out when people try to show how gruff and tough then are by being cloddish.

"I'm too much of a manly man to care what impression I give out to others!"

No you are either making that up or you're unconsciously socially stunted and a liability to yourself.

I did not take it that he was doing anything offensive or rude. My point was if someone is offended by a perceived look or reaction from a person they don't even know they are just overly sensitive. Going though an average day without getting your feelings hurt over some non-event isn't gruff and tough, it's normal adult behavior.

I did not take it that he was doing anything offensive or rude.

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But two different people, who didn't have ill intent toward TM, did think he was doing something that was offensive and rude. Now, they may both have just been wrong. I suggested that possibility in my first response. We weren't there, we can't see. Maybe he was completely neutral. Maybe something was sending very "off" signals to these two different guys. T.M. thought their reactions were noteworthy enough, though, to come ask for help to avoid making whatever mistakes might have instigated those reactions.

My point was if someone is offended by a perceived look or reaction from a person they don't even know they are just overly sensitive.

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How can you say that seriously, though? Really? You can't imagine how some stranger might look at you in a way that made you uncomfortable? Might threaten you? If so, that's a pretty big failure of our concept of situational awareness: Noticing those around you and how they're acting and whether they're taking an improper amount of interest in you. Is that guy staring at you from across the sidewalk just lost in thought, or is he about to pull a knife and demand your wallet? Etc.

If you can agree that you do notice when people act oddly toward you, and indeed, that you may react to them to express that you're uncomfortable, and try to gauge whether they mean you harm or are just "off", then you must comprehend that someone else might react to YOU (or Trunk Monkey in this case) with the same attention.

It isn't like "situational awareness" is something that WE own. We try to get people to do it consciously and with a purpose, building a stronger habit that may keep them out of certain kinds of trouble, but everyone*** does this. Even unknown strangers in a parking lot or apartment commons in a sketchy part of town.

(*** -- Almost everyone -- with the acknowledgment that folks who's minds operate somewhere down the autistic spectrum often find reading social cues and non-verbal messages hard or impossible. Those folks often have to learn this as a very focused, laborious task.)

Going though an average day without getting your feelings hurt over some non-event isn't gruff and tough, it's normal adult behavior.

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Again, that seems to miss T.M.'s question, and my point. He didn't get his feelings hurt, he was confronted by two different, non-threatening, people who were alarmed by his demeanor. He wants to avoid creating conflicts, both because doing so is dumb and a sign of social underdevelopment, and because conflicts with the wrong sorts of characters (especially in bad neighborhoods) can quickly escalate into violence.

I guess I'm doing a poor job of expressing my point. No criticism of T.M. was meant, just the opposite. I took it that he was cautious but polite, said "good evening", but the guy took offense. T.M. did nothing out of line or rude as I understand it. The guys that were offended need to grow up.

The guys that were offended need to grow up.

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So, here are two guys who both reacted the same way. Maybe they need to grow up. Certainly their reactions don't sound especially "polite" and maybe that indicates they are flawed outliers whose reactions might be ignored.

What if more people react like this? What if it's four, five, or a dozen over the course of time? Is there a point where you might concede his behavior could use some adjustment? Is there some way that telling T.M. that these guys need to grow up helps him work on the problem?

"To me, my actions were prudent but I'm wondering did I cross some line of etiquette that I'm not aware of?"
IMO no you did not.

drunkenpoacher said:

"To me, my actions were prudent but I'm wondering did I cross some line of etiquette that I'm not aware of?"
IMO no you did not.

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Being VERY AWARE of the "inner city mentality", I see that if another is looking at you as if YOUR a threat = then you are most likely a bit safer than if your NOT a threat.

In the "hood",either your a predator or meat !.

If another gets their 'feeling hurt' from my look ----- geez I am so sorry about that [ NOT in the least bit].

I am not looking for,nor EVER going to promote an attack by words or actions,BUT if I look like I am not in the mood to be approached or ---- eaten,great.

btw,this has worked for me in New York City and throughout my life as a LEO in the same state.

I am now 69 years old and been told I " look mean ",that is a compliment to me.

In the "hood",either your a predator or meat !.

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But understanding that that's a terribly broken and dysfunctional way of dealing with civil human society -- which to be honest, is indeed where almost all of us here exist -- and hopefully NOT the way well-adjusted people must act toward the people they meet in daily life in order to be "a bit safer", can we do better? Can we think defensively and be mindful of danger without stooping to act like wolves and jackals scaring each other off with bared fangs?

With great respect, I think it fair to say that how an ex NY beat cop who's told he "looks mean" projects himself in society is more of a symptom than a solution.

If nothing else, that gnarled, grizzled tough guy routine is something you had burned, kicked, and beaten into you as you came up through the painful and heartless experiences of working among society's worst. You earned it, and you probably wear it naturally. Trunk Monkey hasn't, doesn't, and probably (rightfully) has no desire to. And you can't fake it well enough to fool the only people who you actually should be trying to ward off. It might sell to the soccer mom or yuppie jogger you bump into, but it won't sell to the actual predator. So what's the point?

BUT if I look like I am not in the mood to be approached

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Yes, I see your point, you don't want anyone to approach you. But it didn't work, at all, for Trunk Monkey. Actually, kind of the opposite. He had two different people "approach him" just to let him know that he was acting oddly. He didn't dissuade any predator street toughs, just made two otherwise unexceptional people get a negative impression of him. Drawing no attention at all would have been fine. Drawing negative attention is unfortunate.

So, can he do better? I say yes, and hence the ideas for how to be, as bikerdoc said, less obvious, not less vigilant.

Sam1911 said:

But understanding that that's a terribly broken and dysfunctional way of dealing with civil human society -- which to be honest, is indeed where almost all of us here exist -- and hopefully NOT the way well-adjusted people must act toward the people they meet in daily life in order to be "a bit safer", can we do better? Can we think defensively and be mindful of danger without stooping to act like wolves and jackals scaring each other off with bared fangs?

With great respect, I think it fair to say that how an ex NY beat cop who's told he "looks mean" projects himself in society is more of a symptom than a solution.

If nothing else, that gnarled, grizzled tough guy routine is something you had burned, kicked, and beaten into you as you came up through the painful and heartless experiences of working among society's worst. You earned it, and you probably wear it naturally. Trunk Monkey hasn't, doesn't, and probably (rightfully) has no desire to. And you can't fake it well enough to fool the only people who you actually should be trying to ward off. It might sell to the soccer mom or yuppie jogger you bump into, but it won't sell to the actual predator. So what's the point?

Yes, I see your point, you don't want anyone to approach you. But it didn't work, at all, for Trunk Monkey. Actually, kind of the opposite. He had two different people "approach him" just to let him know that he was acting oddly. He didn't dissuade any predator street toughs, just made two otherwise unexceptional people get a negative impression of him. Drawing no attention at all would have been fine. Drawing negative attention is unfortunate.

So, can he do better? I say yes, and hence the ideas for how to be, as bikerdoc said, less obvious, not less vigilant.

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Very valid points indeed.

I see what your driving at and my way to highlight this is to mention that ALL my actions are in a city of one kind or another.

When in Savannah Ga,while on trip with wife AND during the daytime = I manage to drop the street attitude.

I go out of my way to say hello to total strangers,BUT the second I see "the look" of the predator ---- back to my street mood and actions.

I am lucky [ I guess ? ] to have had the ability to learn street survival and how and when to use it.

I have had to use more than the look on a few occasions in the past,Lucky for me I walked away unharmed.

I can understand that many have not been raised in a 'hood' that taught you how to act and when to act.

My "attitude" has saved me from problems so many times I lost count.

And in retrospect,I would MUCH rather have avoided the incident,than to win it or lose it.

Yeah, that makes sense. I see that you're saying there's a bit of a decision there, though. You're not just bluffing off every person you walk by, especially in your own apartment complex.

I gathered that T.M. wasn't even aware of the effect.




I was reminded of something driving to work today, about the black US Airman that TM met, who was a bit upset that he got the "keeping my eye on you" treatment. I was thinking of an old white lady who makes a big show of locking up her silverware when the plumber she's called to fix her leaky sink turns out to be a black man. We live in a culture with a lot of baggage and messages are sent all the time that might be intended and might be accidental, but which might be pretty hurtful all the same. Pays to make some attempt not to send out messages like that unless there's a compelling need.

It's true that many black people worry that a white person looking at them means something negative, I've observed this more than once, most recently when I was visiting a friend and as we were leaving her apartment to go to my car, a young black man who is a neighbor of hers was coming down the hall in the other direction... I couldn't stop looking at the amazing jacket he was wearing but realized almost immediately that he was feeling "less than" because I was looking at him, so I verbalized how beautiful the jacket was, asked where he got it etc, and his whole mood changed like night to day.

Trunk Monkey said:

I'm not sure this is completely true because I did notice both guys reacting. Now there may have been other instances where I behaved similarly and was completely oblivious to the response. As well instances (given the neighborhood) where my response was dead nuts on and the guy got the message and kept moving.




The Airman is actually a Senior NCO but I watched him do the "Oh God not this crap again" thing and I watched it go away when I started asking him about the roads.

So here's what I want to clarify.

I'm not trying to be Joe Badass but I live in a neighborhood that requires caution. It is what it is. I can't afford to be oblivious to some random person in my AO. I have to pay attention, especially at that time of night.

Having said that though some of the people I'm trying to be aware of are the type of people who will bow up on me if I present myself as challenging them. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

I'm trying to find the balance between "I'm not a mark" and "I think you might be a mark". That's the basis of my question

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Great explanation of your predicament,but as I have shared the same problem.

My manner is to be that ugly looking guy that you would presume is "walking heavy" and just not one who will go quietly into that great night.

I have not been wrong yet [ yet ] so I will continue my mannerism's.

I do ALWAYS walk heavy so my attitude is correct.

And I do not challenge in any way,just make sure you know that I too am looking and not exposing my back.

The posts about whether or not to care if the other person gets offended are missing the point. The goal is to avoid drawing attention and avoid a confrontation. So, TM doing something that resulted in unwanted attention and an unwanted reaction is counter-productive. Who cares if a stranger thinks I'm rude? I do care if they come over to tell me about it provoking a negative social interaction (that could devolve into worse) when a different behavior would have them walk on by.

TM, I am observant of my surroundings, but I don't go overboard to wait for people to pass, watch them, worry about turning my back to them. I do the initial observation and make a quick assessment. If I think they are trouble, I'll do the "I forgot something" body language routine and change directions, leave the area. I've probably only done this a handful of times in my entire life so it's rare (I would expect women to need this tactic more often just to be on the safe side).

Usually, they don't give off the I'm about to rape you vibe, so I keep doing what I was doing, but with hyper awareness. Listening for them coming at me fast from behind, peripheral vision, looking at the reflection in my car window. I'll also frequently mentally rehearse an attack and response so I'm mentally primed if something happens.

Takes way longer to type (and sounds way more paranoid) than it actually is. In reality it is just a few seconds where I am very aware and keyed in on them until a reflection, sound, or peripheral vision confirms that they stayed on their original trajectory and are a non-issue.

strambo said:

The posts about whether or not to care if the other person gets offended are missing the point. The goal is to avoid drawing attention and avoid a confrontation. So, TM doing something that resulted in unwanted attention and an unwanted reaction is counter-productive. Who cares if a stranger thinks I'm rude? I do care if they come over to tell me about it provoking a negative social interaction (that could devolve into worse) when a different behavior would have them walk on by.

TM, I am observant of my surroundings, but I don't go overboard to wait for people to pass, watch them, worry about turning my back to them. I do the initial observation and make a quick assessment. If I think they are trouble, I'll do the "I forgot something" body language routine and change directions, leave the area. I've probably only done this a handful of times in my entire life so it's rare (I would expect women to need this tactic more often just to be on the safe side).

Usually, they don't give off the I'm about to rape you vibe, so I keep doing what I was doing, but with hyper awareness. Listening for them coming at me fast from behind, peripheral vision, looking at the reflection in my car window. I'll also frequently mentally rehearse an attack and response so I'm mentally primed if something happens.

Takes way longer to type (and sounds way more paranoid) than it actually is. In reality it is just a few seconds where I am very aware and keyed in on them until a reflection, sound, or peripheral vision confirms that they stayed on their original trajectory and are a non-issue.

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OK then,we can agree to disagree

I am of the FIRM opinion that if an attacker has ANY time to "wind up" ,you lose badly.

I do not have the reflexes of a cat,and I cannot spin on a dime to confront an attacker that is more than likely less than half my age [ I am 69 ].

So,giving my back to any possible attacker is just a HELL NO situation.

Not for a nano second.

I do have many years as an LEO, and amartial artist,and an police D/T instructor,and firearms instructor.

THAT IS WHY, its pretty obvious to me that I just don't have the time to play catch up.

ACTION IS ALWAYS FASTER THAN,REACTION !.

Agree age is a consideration and you can get away with more without some young punk interpreting it as a challenge. I'm also talking about people I think aren't a threat. If I think they are, I go somewhere else. Anyway, it doesn't matter what one does specifically, my main point was that pissing someone off by being too suspicious can be counter-productive resulting in a potential confrontation where there wouldn't have otherwise been one.

"Relaxed awareness" is the state I'm going for. I don't look like I'm clueless, I also don't look in any way like I'm challenging someone or being a "badass" either. They know I know they are there, but I'm neither worried about it or presenting a challenge to them.

strambo said:

Agree age is a consideration and you can get away with more without some young punk interpreting it as a challenge. I'm also talking about people I think aren't a threat. If I think they are, I go somewhere else. Anyway, it doesn't matter what one does specifically, my main point was that pissing someone off by being too suspicious can be counter-productive resulting in a potential confrontation where there wouldn't have otherwise been one.

"Relaxed awareness" is the state I'm going for. I don't look like I'm clueless, I also don't look in any way like I'm challenging someone or being a "badass" either. They know I know they are there, but I'm neither worried about it or presenting a challenge to them.

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Like I said,agree to disagree.

I tend to come across as a generally offensive guy - muscular guy, big beard, heavy brow with a permanent scowl... I'm not a combative person, but I have received feedback that I generally look like I'm here to kick someone's @ss. My sister says they call it "RBF". I've learned to embrace mine.

In general, my rule of thumb would guide me to this conclusion: If you offended two people without saying a word, you're just offensive. Whether it's natural posture, the look on your face, or the way you move in relation to others, it might be natural for you, but aggressive or offensive to others.

But I do agree with the first respondent - you're reading too much into it. If your RBF gets you into fights, you're in the wrong area. How you respond to escalation would matter far more than your body language while someone walks past you on the street.

I love that BRF video, classic.

This is an interesting thread.

I have seen the Scaatylobos out there in the world in street clothes or in another job after retirement. The no BS mentality is ever present. I think the criminal element recognizes it immediately.

Also interesting is the way people move and the face that God gave them. That video is pretty good at making fun of that. Kinda like the kid growing up that looked tough whether he was in reality or not.

Myself, I have one of those friendly approachable faces and I used to be quick to smile to anyone. Living in this huge city almost all my life has hardened me towards other people when it comes to trust and the way I respond to them. Firm, polite, but not friendly, and no smile is the best I can do for strangers on the street these days. If I have to interact with another person, I will be the first to offer a greeting though. It puts others at ease to some degree.

You spoke to them both? The "Good evening"? Assuming yes, you accosted them and then stared at them until they were out of sight. Bad manners. If you want to watch them, watch them, don't talk.