405 gr @ 2000 fps

I've always thought those "cowboy" .45-70 Marlins with the extended barrel and magazine tube would be terrific fighting rifles when loaded up with lightweight high-velocity .45-70 hollow points.

When I went to WY camping I bought some Corbons for the same effect in case Yogi came into camp. Unfortunately he didn't. But I got the gun because my wife was scared he may. Not a bad excuse for a gun and expensive ammo. All of it is gone from buddies wanting to move their shoulder. It wasn't too bad. Wish I could remember what the load was.

Greg

I shoot a load in my Browning 1885 (long barrel modern version) with the 350 gr. Speer at 2300 fps, I don't want any more than that. Most of the time I'm happy with the same bullet at 1850 FPS, and honestly I don't think the deer or pigs notice.

When shooting heavy loads off the bench i now wrap my fingers around the lever rather than inside it, hurts way less.

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With the "hot" loads I don't like to shoot mine from a bench unless it's in a sled. Recoil always seems worse for me from the bench.

I am sitting here reading this while I nurse my shoulder after this weekend's trip to the range. I worked up some 405 gr lead loads for my 1876 45-60. I only got to 1200 fps and that was enough to put a hurt on the shoulder after a bunch of rounds.

Dog Soldier said:

The 405 grs. bullets fired at 1,200 fps has taken tons of Buffalo and other critters. The market place has convinced hunters that if a load doesn't hurt it doesn't hunt.

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Brian Pierce shot a 400 grain 45/70 load @1500 fps thru one cape buffalo and killing another standing behind the first one

Like Varminterror and others, I've been loading 405s past 2,000 FPS for years. Recoil is stout, for sure, but it's a slower impulse than some of the big & fast magnums. You won't likely be wanting to shoot box after box, but it's nothing like shooting the .375 RUM, .378 Weatherby, etc. out of sporting weight rifles.

S&B, So true. Frontier Buffalo hunters traditionally shot from 300 yds. They always tried to line up 2 animals for a single shot. Getting 2 for one was a saving. But the main purpose was to save the lead bullet. They very often found the bullet in a 3rd animal. The 45-70 was a favored buffalo caliber.

salt&battery said:

Brian Pierce shot a 400 grain 45/70 load @1500 fps thru one cape buffalo and killing another standing behind the first one

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I'm out of state at a conference, but I do believe I have a copy of that Handloader Magazine at home.

If memory serves, it was an 1800fps load, not 1,500. Might seem like splitting hairs, but being 20% faster and carrying then 44% greater energy certainly isn't.

Good Lord, how did folks ever make it to Africa to take the largest game on earth with the largest rifles on earth???

Varminterror said:

If memory serves, it was an 1800fps load, not 1,500. Might seem like splitting hairs, but being 20% faster and carrying then 44% greater energy certainly isn't.

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Not gonna make any difference in penetration.

CraigC said:

Not gonna make any difference in penetration

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I've read far too many of your own posts regarding super magnum revolvers to believe you actually believe this. This is like saying a .44spcl will penetrate as deeply as a .44mag, or a .454 as deeply as a .460. I can be certain you've experienced as I have that none of those are true.

One does need to be a little careful when employing the .45-70 on heavy/dangerous animals. It's a very suitable cartridge, but bullet performance can be an issue. Hard cast has a bad habit of shearing on bone and losing large amounts of weight. Various jacketed softs can be good, but you need to look at the operating velocity window as they may match up poorly to your load. For fast loads, the 405gr Woodleigh is great in terms of weight retention but you need impact to be > 1700 ft/s. For slower velocities, I would call Hawk and see which jacket thickness they recommend in their 400gr for your application.

For solids, Northfolk offers a non-cataloged 425gr that's designed for a 2.55 OAL. If you were willing to pay a small design fee you could also get a 400gr version I'm sure.

depends what bullets you use, a good hard cast bullet at modest speeds will penetrate better that a high speed hollow point of the same diamiter. eastbank.

What I and many others have experienced is that there is nothing meaningful to be gained by exceeding 1300fps in revolvers with cast bullets. The fact that 300fps creates 44% more energy is only good for marketing. It's not until we get to +2000fps that interesting things start happening.

eastbank said:

depends what bullets you use, a good hard cast bullet at modest speeds will penetrate better that a high speed hollow point of the same diamiter. eastbank.

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That's a very odd comparison. If you want penetration, you don't use a hollow point (or even a soft nose). You use a wide meplat flat point monolithic solid.

For good solids, as far as I can tell extra velocity always results in both deeper penetration and a more damaging wound channel.

I have loaded up some pretty stout 300 grainers. Not overboard. They hurt the face when I shoot them. Not sure I would want to shoot the 405 grainers.

76shuvlinoff said:

So, I have not hunted since about 1979 but I love shooting a lever gun, My largest bore is a Marlin 1895cb in 45-70. I have rounds on hand for 405gr @ 1200 fps and 325gr at 1800. I just ordered a box of 405gr Buffalo Bore at 2000 fps. This is going to leave a mark isn't it?

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Shoot standing up. Lean a bit forward. Make sure the buttstock contacts the shoulder solidly. Do that and you will be ok.

Just don't fire 'em off a bench rest! That will leave a mark.

Deaf

Well in my original reply I mentioned getting kicked in the shoulder by a pack mule. I was referring to shooting those off a bench. Standing allows your body's spine to ack as a vertical spring. One shot isn't bad. Shoot 10-15 and tell me you aren't a little sore.

I'm not really recoil sensitive. I have some loads that duplicate BB with 405 MBC #1 Buffalos over H4198. I use them to have fun with my friends after I give them the exact same looking cartridge, with the same bullet. But instead of 47gr of 4198 or 49 of 3031, it has 15gr of Unique. The first word out of their mouth on the second shot is almost always the same..."Ouch". The ensuing exchange isn't repeatable on this forum without infractions. These aren't kids. These are grown men. Firefighters, Cops, Ranchers.

Old Elmer had a stand-up bench for shooting those big elephant guns of his.

I suppose hunting and shooting in the land of Lincoln for many years has some upside at least in regards to recoil. Deer season meant shotgun slugs and since those were our 'deer rifles' we tended to shoot them a lot more than otherwise intelligent folks would be want to do. 1-1/4 ounces at 1600 fps or other equivalents aren't particularly tame in light weight pump guns. They do teach you get off the bench. I've fired a few rounds of 458win in a 10 pound rifle that weren't terrible other than the scope being mounted a bit farther rearward than I would have preferred. I think so long as the gun is held with the butt firmly against the shoulder and you rock with the shot then recoil isn't that bad. The biggest mistake I see is folks holding the stock loosely away from their body which gives the guns room to move back and punch you. Good form goes a long ways.

A Marlin 1895 Cowboy weighs 8 pounds.
However, Buffalo Bore(who call it .45-70 Magnum) says it'll be safe in your rifle. They also publish(on their site) the ballistics. That 405 at 2000 fps is going to drop a foot at 200 when sighted in at 100. And another foot between 200 and 250.
I do notice there's no mention of felt recoil. A 405 at 1330 fps comes back with 18.7 ft-lbs. of energy. A 350 at 1900 fps comes back with 37.9 ft-lbs. Kind of suspect you'll know it went off. Whatever it hits won't care. snicker.

X-Rap said:

Old Elmer had a stand-up bench for shooting those big elephant guns of his.

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For good reason!

My first shot out of my 7.5 lb .375 RUM was off sand bags. It hurt! It's still a punishing rifle when standing, but not nearly so much as hunched over it on a bench!

Dog Soldier said:

S&B, So true. Frontier Buffalo hunters traditionally shot from 300 yds. They always tried to line up 2 animals for a single shot. Getting 2 for one was a saving. But the main purpose was to save the lead bullet. They very often found the bullet in a 3rd animal. The 45-70 was a favored buffalo caliber.

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actually Brian paid for one buff so the guide who told him to shoot the big male did not want to charge him for 2 being neither one saw the smaller female. But you are right about the old time hunters lining up them up so save lead

Llama Bob said:

That's a very odd comparison. If you want penetration, you don't use a hollow point (or even a soft nose). You use a wide meplat flat point monolithic solid.

For good solids, as far as I can tell extra velocity always results in both deeper penetration and a more damaging wound channel.

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I think a slower moving 400 grain bullet at 1500-1600 penetrates in a straighter line deeper then the same bullet driven over 2000 fps being if they hit a heavy bone they might deflect

salt&battery said:

I think a slower moving 400 grain bullet at 1500-1600 penetrates in a straighter line deeper then the same bullet driven over 2000 fps being if they hit a heavy bone they might deflect

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I would only agree with your statement when dealing with non-solid projectiles. Soft points are going to be dependent upon their construction and performance envelope, where some may driver deeper and open more whereas other softer ones may over expand or grenade resulting in less penetration. If it's solid and stays together, faster impact speed can only mean more momentum and deeper penetration.