OK, help AR15 noob / potential buyer :)

I second the TRS-25. I've used a couple of relatively inexpensive red dots and the TRS-25 is the only one I'd recommend.

I bought a TRS 25 when I got my 16" AR. I wanted to keep costs down, and the TRS performed very well at the rifle range. It always held zero (with no hard handling) and was easy to use. A big plus is that it's very compact.

Later I did some research and concluded that the TRS would not hold zero if it were subject to chest level falls or rough handling, so after about a year of shooting with the TRS I decided to spend $400+ on an Aimpoint PRO. With the good advice of the folks on THR, I went to Optics Planet and used the code THRFORUM for a discount.

I don't regret getting the TRS. It does a great job for what it is.

I don't own a Bushnell TRS. I've done a lot of research on budget red dots because I have a facination with optics. The TRS is what I'd purchase in a budget optic, hands down. It's also what I'd stick with all the way up to a Burris FastFire in price, then I'd go to the Burris.

Wanderling said:

Can someone explain to me the advantage of this

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-m4-premium-carbine.html

over this

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...matic-556x45mm-16-barrel-301-rounds?a=1919678

Other than the chrome-lined barrel ?

Also, are the prices high, low, just right ?

TIA !

Click to expand...

Looks like I'm too late, but...

The difference is that the PSA gun is essentially trying to be a mil-spec M4 (semi-auto of course). The barrel looks like a FN-made hammer forged barrel with chrome lining, grenade launcher cut, and a 1:7 twist. The bolt is MPI, shot peened etc. They're basically trying to make the equivalent of the FN gun that gets sold to the army, but cheaper (and without select fire).

The S&W isn't so interested in military features. There's no chrome lining (and no stainless), a slower twist, plastic rear sight, no grenade launcher cut etc.

The price on the S&W at Sportsman's guide is a joke - they're $500 on gunbroker.

Personally, I would never buy an AR with slower than a 1:8 twist. Fast twists give you access to heavier bullets, but don't prevent you from using lighter bullets. In practice, there is simply no advantage to a slow twist like the S&W has. Given that amount of money, I'd go with a less mil-spec config (I don't need a grenade launcher cut, for example) and get a free float rail, especially if you plan to use any kind of optics. Optics plus a plastic handguard result in large POI shifts when you shift positions. That's an unfortunate "feature" of both those guns. Mid-length gas is nice too.

Maybe look at this:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...e-13-5-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-516444973.html
plus this:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...wer-magpul-moe-edition-black-no-magazine.html

Llama Bob said:

Personally, I would never buy an AR with slower than a 1:8 twist. Fast twists give you access to heavier bullets, but don't prevent you from using lighter bullets. In practice, there is simply no advantage to a slow twist like the S&W has. /QUOTE]

Click to expand...

This is only true to a point. I've seen 55 grain vmax bullets blow up a few yards in front of a 1 in 7" twist barrel. I think 1 in 8" is the sweet spot, but a person wanting to shoot bullets from 40 grain varmint bullets to 69 grain match bullets might do better with a 1 in 9" twist.

Berger.Fan222 said:

This is only true to a point. I've seen 55 grain vmax bullets blow up a few yards in front of a 1 in 7" twist barrel.

Click to expand...

I'm, let's say, suspicious of your claim. Because the military shoots M193 which is a plain jacketed 55gr. load in 1:7 twist barrels all the time, and nothing funny happens.

Llama Bob said:

I'm, let's say, suspicious of your claim. Because the military shoots M193 which is a plain jacketed 55gr. load in 1:7 twist barrels all the time, and nothing funny happens.

Click to expand...

Most varmint bullets like the vmax have much thinner jackets than fmj bullets. Thin jacketed bullets are more prone to failure when spinning them fast. Muzzle velocity, barrel length, and barrel condition also play a (smaller) role, as there is significant support that frictional heating in the barrel is transmitted through the thin jacket and starts to melt the lead core prior to the failures early in flight. Berger increased the thickness of their bullet jackets in some of their bullet lines to reduce the incidence of bullet failure in flight.

I'm not the only person who has seen this effect:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-481986.html

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449564

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-stability/

The theory:

http://www.varmintal.com/aengr.htm#SpinningBullet

Wanderling said:

Anyway, looking forward to playing with it the first decent weekend ! Does anyone know if Wallmart plinking ammo for .223 is any good accuracy wise ?

Click to expand...

I shoot Walmart American Eagle and it works great. Haven't tried any other brands, but as well as my rifle shoots American Eagle, and as cheap as I can get it, (stocked up at $6.50/box at PSA) I really don't care to.

"Personally, I would never buy an AR with slower than a 1:8 twist. Fast twists give you access to heavier bullets, but don't prevent you from using lighter bullets."

This is true. And if you shoot longer(heavier) bullets you need the faster twist. 1:9 works for the vast majority of people owning AR's. I shoot 64 grain PP's in my AR and 65 grain GKs in my sons AR know no one else running bullets that heavy. People I know buy inexpensivel 50 and 55 grain ammo and don't even really pay much attention to the brand. The store where I worked until November moved a small amount of .233/5.56 ammo over 55 grains compared 55 and under, in fact a minuscule amount. There are no doubt people running ammunition heavier than 65 grains, from what I've seen they are serious shooters with higher end rifles. 1:9 twist is not a deal breaker for most people, they don't need anything faster, though some think they do.

Wanderling said:

My last two questions, for now:

• Since I want this to double as a HD gun, I won't be putting a scope on it. I still want something better than the regular iron sights for shooting at 100 yards. Something that can be used quickly yet is more accurate than the stock sights. Not sure if this means red dot, or holographic, or anything else. Open to suggestions. Would like to keep it around $70 or so, if possible.

Thank you again !

Click to expand...

To expand on the Primary Arms Micro (edit : since I wasn't the first to say anything about it), I bought one on a Black Friday sale for $49 a couple years back. I saw all the reviews of people who were happy with theirs and saw videos of them being frozen, dragged by a car and hit like a baseball with a bat and figured I wouldn't be out much if it turned out to be a total piece of crap.

I was pleasantly surprised. Actually turned out to be a nice little red dot sight for next to nothing.



Sight picture of the Primary Arms Micro



Pulled this second pic (that's on an AK) from the net, but that's exactly what it looks like.

Mine was an MD-06 which isn't manufactured any longer (PA only currently makes two Micro red dots, the MD-RBG II and the 50k hour Advanced which is called the MD-ADS) but it's most comparable to this one (meaning the MD-RBG II).

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-micro-dot-with-removable-base-eta-early-july-2016-md-rbgii

I sold the AR above at the top and my buddy who bought it asked if I'd keep it and the American Defense mount on the rifle if he just paid full price at what replacement value was. He didn't want to deal with the hassle of buying a brand new one and then mounting it and sighting it in when he really didn't know what he was doing, so I agreed.

So I'm upgrading to the 50k hour Primary Arms Advanced Micro (MD-ADS).

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-...uttons-and-up-to-50k-hour-battery-life-md-ads

Great dots. Definitely clearer than the Vortex Strikefire as well as being lighter and smaller.

The P.A. Micro RBG II is comparable to the Bushnell TRS-25 in size and weight dimensions, but the Bushnell TRS-25 has a much longer battery life (by 2,000 hrs) than that model and can actually be found a little cheaper ($16). Then the P.A. MD-ADS comes in and while it costs an extra $97 bucks it gains 47,000 hours in battery life. That put it firmly in the realm of Aimpoint battery life.

The Primary Arms Micro's and the Bushnell TRS-25 are the only red dots on the economy side that I can really recommend off of personal experience. All the other econo optics I've ever tried besides those two have crapped the bed early on in our relationship.

The rifle comes with one mag, any recommendations on what mags to buy ?

Click to expand...

My mag of choice these days is Lancer smoke. (They're even on sale right now at Midway)

Lancer AWM mags (*Click*)

Following that are the USGI aluminum mags from (2nd) NHMTG, (3rd) Okay Industries, (4th) Brownells and (6th) D&H. Then there's the MagPul PMag (5th)

https://www.44mag.com/category/223_ar15_magazines

http://www.brownells.com/magazines/...30rd-223-5-56-usgi-cs-magazine-prod21225.aspx

http://palmettostatearmory.com/d-h-5-56-30rd-aluminum-magazine-8416.html

http://gunmagwarehouse.com/magpul-pmags

I like Lancer AWM's simply because it's impossible to tilt their follower (go ahead and try), their surface provides some traction (unlike aluminum mags) without tearing things up, on two of their colors you can see how many rds you have left at a glance, they provide the flexibility of polymer and accidentally stepping on one won't dent the mag body and put it out of commission and you can have 30 rds in the mag and reload on a closed bolt with minimal effort (no more downloading to 28 rds).

They're a hybrid mag from both steel and polymer materials and they offer the advantages of both without the drawbacks of either.

Other mags have worked well for years and will continue to do so. I just feel that they offer some advantages not seen in other mags since no other mags offer a mag constructed of hybrid materials.

Wanderling said:

A red dot, perhaps.

Click to expand...

Even with a red dot you may find yourself wanting a free-float handguard. With the plastic clamshell, when you change positions (standing vs. prone, slung vs. not slung, bags on bench etc.) it puts different forces on the barrel and bends it differently. The shift in point of impact can be on the order of 5 MOA (5 inches at 100y).

Luckily, it's not hard to free-float an AR down the line if desired.

Congrats on your new rifle.

Wanderling said:

Thank you !

• The stock Magpul rear sight seems much easier to use than the typical Soviet notched iron sights. OTOH it doesn't have distance-based elevation adjustment - don't know if this is significant. May be the 5.56 NATO just has a flatter trajectory ?

Click to expand...

The sights you've got are "backup" sights design to be flipped down behind an optic. The sights not being adjustable for range is a notable weakness, as is being plastic. You can get a variety of metal rear sights that do adjust for range, but they're out of reach of the price point S&W was trying to hit with this gun. For example the KAC range-adjustable metal rear backup:
http://shop.knightarmco.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=KM25650

Now, things that surprised me. Remember, I am not used to AR platform. In no particular order...

• A lot of plastic parts. Stock, magazine, front and rear sights. This makes it feel like a toy, somewhat. Not sure how this compares to the military spec rifles, but it does make AK feel like a tank by comparison.
• The plastic stock rattles a little. Now, this is probably common for all extendable stocks. But it's plastic... Hopefully it's sturdier than it seems.
• The charging handle feels weird and, again, a bit fragile. I am just not used to not operating the bolt directly.
• There's a whole procedure to open the bolt before you can switch safety to "safe". This is probably the strangest thing, since every othe safety equipped gun I've ever handled could be switched to "safe" at any time.
• The very need for forward assist... I guess this has to do with charging handle being a separate device and not attached to the bolt. But this does feel like a design-driven complexity.

Overall, the gun feels more ergonomic, yet more "delicate" than the AK. But the real test will come at the range.

Click to expand...

The plastic mag and stock are decently rugged parts. Don't worry about the wiggle in the stock. The sights, yeah, they were trying to hit a price point.

The charging handle should be plenty rugged. It is different Note that it's not touched during normal operation. The forward assist is arguably an unneeded part, but may be useful in a few odd circumstances.

What you describe with the safety does not sound right but maybe I'm misunderstanding. It should be possible to engage the safety with the bolt forward. This should probably be sorted out before firing the gun.

So I could be wrong, but I believe a 1 in 7 twist is actually a more versatile twist rate as opposed to 1 in 9. Likewise, I'd prefer chrome-lined barrel if I had the option.

Of course here, the price difference is huge. I liked the M&P Sport "1"' melonite lined barrel. Supposedly as protective as chrome (or close) without the inherent imperfections that affect accuracy and so on.

As the others have said, I think there may be better options than the PSA rifle, perhaps for a bit cheaper.

Wanderling said:

Perhaps I am not describing it clearly. The procedure is even described in S&W manual:

"If the safety lever won’t rotate to the “SAFE” position - pull the charging handle (uniformly by both sides) all the way back (FIGURE 9), press and hold the lower portion of the bolt catch down (FIGURE 10) while you release pressure on the charging handle. This will lock the bolt in the open posi- tion. Return charging handle fully for- ward until it locks and remove finger from bolt catch."

Click to expand...

I'm working a bit from memory here because my ARs don't have mil-type ignition systems. But I'm about 95% sure that the only time you can't engage the safety is when the bolt is forward and the internal hammer is down. I'm sure someone with a normal trigger will confirm that, but it's how it works on my guns. Basically you never get into that state in normal operation, only in dry fire or various malfunction scenarios. Because if there was a live round, when you pulled the trigger to get the hammer down it would fire and either return to battery with the hammer cocked (where it can be put on safe) or lock back on empty (where it can be put on safe). So in normal operation the safety is always available to you.

Wanderling said:

Dryfired. Guilty as charged...

Click to expand...

OK, you had me worried for a bit. This video will show you how how a standard trigger works:


You can see that when the hammer is down, the tail end of the trigger is up. So you can't put it on safe when the hammer is down or you'd jam up the gun.

Wanderling said:

Thank you !

Anyway, I just received my Sport II. Haven't had a chance to shoot it - and probably won't get to this weekend - but played with it a lot. Here's my impressions so far - remember, I am only familiar with AKM/S (7.62mm ones) and SKS.

Some of these may sound like criticism but they are not - I am not familiar enough with this rifle to criticize anything. More like, things that are unexpected / surprising.

Will start with definite positives.

• The rifle, even with basic hand guard, feels significantly more ergonomic and comfortable and "pointy" than any AK that I shot or handled. And some of it has to do with barrel being in line with stock. The AK-74 would probably come somewhat closer due to lighter weight vs AKM, but still not the same.
• The stock Magpul rear sight seems much easier to use than the typical Soviet notched iron sights. OTOH it doesn't have distance-based elevation adjustment - don't know if this is significant. May be the 5.56 NATO just has a flatter trajectory ?
• It's nice that the rear sight can be flipped out of way when used with sight attachments.
• I really like the adjustable stock.
• The safety switch can be flipped with my thumb.
• Fit and finish seem very good. For what's considered an entry level AR, it looks and feels like a piece of precise machinery. Will see how that finish holds with time.
• I find the magazine easier to attach than the AK's catch-and-pivot design, feels more intuitive.

Now, things that surprised me. Remember, I am not used to AR platform. In no particular order...

• A lot of plastic parts. Stock, magazine, front and rear sights. This makes it feel like a toy, somewhat. Not sure how this compares to the military spec rifles, but it does make AK feel like a tank by comparison.
• The plastic stock rattles a little. Now, this is probably common for all extendable stocks. But it's plastic... Hopefully it's sturdier than it seems.
• The charging handle feels weird and, again, a bit fragile. I am just not used to not operating the bolt directly.
• There's a whole procedure to open the bolt before you can switch safety to "safe". This is probably the strangest thing, since every othe safety equipped gun I've ever handled could be switched to "safe" at any time.
• The very need for forward assist... I guess this has to do with charging handle being a separate device and not attached to the bolt. But this does feel like a design-driven complexity.

Overall, the gun feels more ergonomic, yet more "delicate" than the AK. But the real test will come at the range.
View attachment 230479

Click to expand...

I hope you enjoy your rifle, Wanderling.

To address a few points in your post....

The front sight base should be steel, not plastic. Your rear backup iron sight (buis) is polymer, but the Magpul mbus is still pretty rugged.

The standard m4 waffle stock will certainly rattle. It'll also pull beard hair. Don't say you weren't warned!! A BCM gunfighter or B5 sopmod stock will reduce most, if not all the rattle if that's a bother to you. The m4 stock is certainly serviceable and not fragile, though.

Elevation will not be adjustable in the mbus rear sight. However, you can set elevation by dialing up/down on your front sight post. Set windage in the rear.

Zeros are personal, but I'd suggest that you zero at 50 yards and confirm around 200. This will mean that your bullet should be around 2" from zero at any given time between the muzzle and about 220 yards. You'll need to learn holdovers if you get out past that, but it's doable.

I agree, the forward assist is not used a lot. Generally, I don't ride the bolt and I don't try to force a round if it doesn't chamber the first time.

Yes. I can see how the charging handle would feel unusual if you are used to having one on the bolt like an ak does. It's serviceable though, and it'll become more normal with use.

The AR is more reliable/durable than the Internet gives it credit for in the same way the AK is more accurate than the Internet gives it credit for. Google filthy 14 sometime to see the kind of abuse an AR can take. Don't be afraid to push and enjoy it.

Hope you enjoy this rifle as much as I've enjoyed mine!

Wanderling said:

From what I read, the 1:7 rate is better for heavier grain bullets used in long distance shooting. So I will not have a need for this in the foreseeable future.

The chrome lined barrel - again, from what I read, it increases the life of the barrel when using corrosive primers, and not cleaning after each use (military conditions), but it tends to decrease accuracy. S&W supposedly is using their version of nitrite treatment similar to Glock's tenifer. Again, I may be wrong, but this doesn't seem to be that important for a casual civilian shooter.

In the end, S&W just made more sense as an overall gun package, especially at this price point - it was just $520 total after FFL fees. This leaves me some money for better sights.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I actually didn't include that at the price points mentioned, I'd have taken the S&W without hesitation.

I can't believe you got that kind of deal! My SU-16 was like $600 out the door although I had to transfer it twice. But that is just a smokin' deal. Best of luck with it!

For a better sight, when the mood strikes you, I suggest a Leupold VX-R Patrol 1.25~4x 20. It's about $450 on the street. You'll need a PEPR scope base to get it up where it needs to be. Why do I suggest this scope ...

It's a great view. It's clear, clean and forgiving. The "eye box" is very large. The eye relief is longish. What that means is that you can be close to your preferred cheek weld and it will still work. In the rush of things, sometimes that's as good as you can get ...

It has a "fire dot" in the center. And a dark crosshair with circle when the fire dot is not selected. What this means is in bright daylight at the range, you can dial it up to 4X and use it like any other scope,

When it's dim, or you want it ready for HD, dial it back to 1.25 which looks a lot like 1:1 to the human eye. Turn on the fire dot and let it go to sleep. Anytime you grab the rifle it will be awake (motion sensitive) and you use it just like any red dot. Both eyes open and using all your visual acuity. That fire dot will be in the picture and you do not need to worry about anything else. You are working home distances. If the dot is center mass and you know it's not the wife, or kids, or neighbor - pull the trigger.

I know this is pricey after just paying something similar for the rifle. That is often the way optics work out. First, just go find one on display somewhere and play with it. See if you are interested...

I'm not a Leupold fan boy. I have lots of optics and none are Leupold. But this one really made me think again. I was so impressed that I will be installing one on an AR build underway. And, maybe on an older 06 too...

Do yourself a favor and go look at one. Then think about how it might be useful ...

Hard to beat an M&P 15 Sport II for under $500.

$498: https://www.slickguns.com/product/smith-wesson-mp-sport-ii-58999?mobile=true