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Help with choice between two specific AR's?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by skeptical_in_Ohio, Jul 22, 2014.

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  1. TrailWolf

    TrailWolf Member

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    I read a horror story about them on another forum.

    The fit and finish was horrible and the rifle did not function properly - buds was not helpful and it had to go back to AA.

    Why risk it when there are so many better choices for not much more.
     
  2. skeptical_in_Ohio

    skeptical_in_Ohio Member

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    Hi all-

    First, thanks to everybody for the input. A lot of stuff to digest.

    Here are my take-aways for now.

    PSA good, offer I saw not so much.
    Core15 is not necessarily bad but there are unknowns.
    Better options can be had (e.g. Colt, S&W), including ordering the bits from PSA and building.
    The market is a bit of a buyer's market now (as opposed to about a year ago).

    My course of action - at some point I will need to "place my bets and takes my chances" but for the moment I'm still in think and seek mode, although I'm now better-informed as a result of everybody's kind responses and can be ready to move with dispatch if the right thing came along.

    The good news for me is that as long nothing too stupid comes out of DC (admittedly a bit hopeful) I've probably got until at least November before anything changes fundamentally in the market, and a lot of rifles that got bought when things were weird may still be coming available between now and then.
     
  3. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    Perhaps going to M4Carbine. net and doing some reading would really be helpful to you.
    Read and research and you might be surprised at what you find.
    For your own well being and sanity, read and research a lot before posting, you'll fair much better there.
     
  4. highpower

    highpower Member

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    My impression of M4carbine.net was that a great many posters there were gear snobs. If you weren't rocking a Noveske, LMT, Colt, or other high end AR, they were full of dire predictions of doom and gloom about your less-than-high end rifle.

    There is some good info there though, you just have to wade through the BS to find it. I will say that the general attitude left me a bit cold so I haven't visited the site for a few years.

    I have been shooting a PSA M4gery built on one of their premium kits with a chrome lined barrel from FN since 2010. Not a real long time I'll admit, but still long enough for me to give what I would consider a fair review. I have had zero problems with it. Out side of cleaning it from time to all I have done is shoot it. It eats steel cased ammo without a hiccup. I don't shoot off the bench as I find that to be as exciting as watching paint dry, so I have no real current accuracy figures. but when I first sighted it in I was getting about 1.5" to 2.5" groups at 100 yards with iron sights using some of my match ammo.
     
  5. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    My impression of M4carbine.net was that a great many posters there were gear snobs. If you weren't rocking a Noveske, LMT, Colt, or other high end AR, they were full of dire predictions of doom and gloom about your less-than-high end rifle.

    With current prices as they are I would consider the Colt or perhaps a BCM to be some of the greatest deals out there.
    Gear snobs, perhaps?
    A lot of the folks who post there are industry guys or actual .mil end users. I would see how they might appear that way, but then they use thier stuff a bit differently than the average M4 user/owner.
     
  6. highpower

    highpower Member

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    I would point out that someone who is trying to sell a product is always going to say that you need their gizmo no matter what the cost. As for those in the military vs everyone else, just how many average gun owners do you think are prepared mentally or physically, to leap out of their back door and go to war?

    With the normal use that a average owner is going to put there rifle, they will likely never wear it out. Heck, when I go to the range, nearly all of the shooters are sitting at a bench with their gun on sandbags. For most, their rifle will never even get a scratch on it.

    Hey, if you want to spend a chunk of dough so you can say that you have this uber expensive AR with a laundry list of cool parts on it, then more power to you. I have a AR that I built back in '89 out of a commercial lower and a bunch of surplus parts. I can't count the number of rounds I have through it, but it still shoots accurately and reliably. Good thing I didn't have all the internet sages around back then to tell me what a POS I was building.
     
  7. TrailWolf

    TrailWolf Member

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    BCM just started a promotion yesterday - free bcg and Mod 0 comp with their uppers. Like $260 worth of freebies.

    You'd be silly to not jump on a 16" middy for $452 shipped right now.
     
  8. TBH

    TBH Member

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    I hope you are kidding! I know we all make mistakes, but... Barrel nut?
     
  9. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Member

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    I purchased a Core15 M4 last year just like you are considering. I have probably only put 400 rounds through it, but I am very happy with its functioning and accuracy. I bought it because several of the younger guys at the gun shop where I bought it had also purchased one. They felt it was the best AR on the market at that price point. I too have heard good things about the S&W M&P line of AR's, but I think a forward bolt assist is a must have. I also got rather crappy treatment from S&W about their so-called warranty service. My favorite gun to shoot is my M&P 15-22...when it is working. Sent it for warranty because of feed/eject failures. They sent it back, said NPF. When I got it back, it wouldn't even accept a magazine. Called them again, lady I spoke to talked down to me, basically said I didn't know how to use the rifle, but finally agreed to take it back again after a lengthy discussion. Got it back with a replaced magazine latch and other parts and seems to be working. S&W will not see any more of my money. I'll take my chances on Core15 staying in business or just pay a local gunsmith.
     
  10. ohbythebay

    ohbythebay Member

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    Just thoughts....

    The CORE is great...and so is the M&P15 ...

    I chose the M&P over a host of others because of the reliability and to be honest, where I disagree here is you should NEVER need forward assist. If you do - something is wrong and your just pushing bad into worse.

    I have never had a single fail to feed, fail to fire. Never needed a forward assist (though actually the M&P does have one, people just don't always realize it) . The forward assist is the knob on the right side and if you had to you can push it forward ...but have never needed to nor would I use it. If I had a fail to feed, I would eject and move on.

    Its really about usage. If you are going to be shooting 300 yard targets and looking for total accuracy...then maybe you build or spend big bucks. I would probably still stick with S&W on a higher end.

    But if it is for range plinking, 100 yards or less..then what is the advantage ? I have a 3-9x scope on mine an at the range, its almost cheating as I cut the red out of the bull

    Best yet..try a couple and ignore all our advice...LOL
     
  11. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    Skeptical, I'm going to come at this from a different direction. What about the AR-15 your wife fired did she like about it? It seems like you and she want a fairly simple / basic rifle or carbine for range use, but I don't want to assume anything.

    In other words, if you can tell us more specifically what you want from the rifle then we can better help sort the myriad options.
     
  12. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Member

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    Not all the M&P rifles have a forward assist, but I agree there are people out there doing dumb things with them. The gun range video of a guy literally hammering the bolt into battery (apparently with the wrong ammunition) and then blowing up his rifle comes to mind. But, if you are hunting and trying to be very quiet, you can ride the charging handle home slowly and then use the forward assist to quietly close the bolt.
     
  13. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    Adams Arms does OEM the gas piston system that lots of other makers use and they have a good reputation AFAIK. I think Core 15 piston guns use the AA system. I know PSA has a great reputation but I don't see why anyone here is steering people away from Core 15. Their guns are mil-spec and the BCG is MPI'd, from everything I have ever seen or heard they make great guns especially for the money. I suppose S&W has been around longer and may be around after C15 is gone but if you don't have a problem within the first few months you probably won't have one at all. And virtually everything on an AR is user replaceable anyways.

    I don't have any better advice to offer. Lots of great options out there. Certainly a BCM or DD would be a great rifle but not everyone needs a Tier One fighting rifle. Especially if you're just looking for a range toy that you might not even use much.
     
  14. skeptical_in_Ohio

    skeptical_in_Ohio Member

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    Hi again all-

    Thanks much for all the great input. Since there was a direct question to me I thought I'd address this first...

    Actually, I never saw it. We were at the local indoor range with the kids; I had our girls on one bay and she had our boy in the other. Somebody in the bay next to her asked if she wanted to try one; I didn't hear about it until we'd left the range. She said she liked it and could see why people would want one. As mentioned above, they've not necessarily been my thing but since she's intrigued I figured now is a good time to figure this out (as opposed to when something happens and everybody panics).

    So in essence, the assumption is pretty much right - I could see getting more serious than range/field, but for home defense it's a bit much - given the layout of our house a handgun (easily locked when not in use) or a shotgun (preferred, but less easily lockable). If things ever got where it would need serious SHTF use there are a lot more problems than currently anticipated. Hence, simple, basic, works, allows us to learn the platform and identify what we might really want - these are the goals.

    Good to hear about the Core15. I'm not locked in at all, but I kept seeing prices that were in the pretty low range ($650 for a new one with chrome-lined barrel), and the reviews I had seen (albeit not of the particular model I'm curious about) were favorable. This said, I may have come across a less expensive option that allows me to ease into things (see below).

    On Adams, I've noted that some mentioned issues, but I've also noted that Palmetto State Armory sells Adams uppers so they must have some degree of quality.

    Over this weekend past a friend mentioned that he's got a stripped PSA lower he'll sell to me cheaply and he's built more than a few of these. That plus one of the good kits that PSA has (not right now - it appears that everything is sold out) may put us at a good starting point. For sights, I noticed that somebody's selling some pieces off a S&W for $65 which includes both the front and rear sights (if I'm right on this - rear one that mounts to the rail and front one that mounts to a rail on the gas block - if not I'll get some more advice). Short term iron sights to get used to things - later a good red dot either with flip-downs or to co-witness.

    There is no huge imperative right now - the more I learn the more I realize two things - I still need to learn more but that putting one together is pretty straightforward - I am reasonably mechanical and have done fairly simple things like replaced internal parts in a 10/22, and can field strip anything I own. Hence, with the range of "how to build your AR" videos online and a good resource nearby I feel reasonably comfortable and that's where I'm leaning.

    Again I thank all respondents - you have added greatly to my knowledge.
     
  15. HexHead

    HexHead Member

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    Good advice here. Two other points. The S&W Sport, at 6.4 lbs, is one of the lightest weight ARs around. Your wife may like that.

    The S&W comes with a lifetime warranty from a company that's already been around over 150 years. Should there ever be another AWB, all these little companies that just make ARs will disappear and so will your warranty. S&W's product mix is diverse enough that would be unlikely.
     
  16. HexHead

    HexHead Member

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    Since you're obviously talking about a cold bolt, you can also do that with your thumb using the relief notch on the side of the bolt. That's why it is there.

    The forward assist wasn't on the original design. It was added during the Vietnam war when M16s were having serious malfunctions due to the Army changing the powder in the round without testing causing fouling and issuing the rifles without cleaning kits. It was a quick fix for the full auto select fire rifles. It is completely unnecessary in modern civilian use scenarios.
     
  17. tiamat

    tiamat Member

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    I don't think we're specifically steering people away from the Core 15, just that at that price point we're offering other equal or better options.

    I went through the specs on Core's page, and it does look like a nice rifle, especially the 1-8 twist option they offer. I'm sure they make a fine product, but they just don't have the exposure and name recognition as some others do. I'm sure PSA was the same way when they started out, but over time gathered a pretty healthy following. Perhaps the same will happen with Core. Someone's got to be first, right? Of course, in the world of AR's, a company's reputation can flip 180 degrees almost in an instant for a variety of reasons, and not always related to the product they produce.
     
  18. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

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    se fla i love claymores 01/sot
    http://www.jadeshooting.com/shop/for-ar-15/54-tactical-intent-pink-ar-15-furniture-set.html if your wife doesn't like the color,you can also build it with pink furniture.

    if you do decide to build your own,get a chrome/nickel boron carrier group.easier cleaning.
    permatex anti seize compound for the barrel nut.(aluminum compatible).keeps the nut from seizing to the aluminum,and also gives a better torque reading.my personal experience with extraction issues,get an extractor spring/oring upgrade kit.eliminates feed/extraction issues off the bat.
     
  19. skeptical_in_Ohio

    skeptical_in_Ohio Member

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    :eek: My EYES!!!

    Wife would like purple. Let's not encourage this. :)

    At any rate, given another recent project (painting a composite 10/22 stock for my daughter), we've got enough pink around here as is. For the curious, if you see black it was either removed (barrel/receiver and red dot) or masked (the checkering on the side; butt end). I have another black stock and a wood one as well when this phase passes.
     

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  20. tiamat

    tiamat Member

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    hey, whatever gets them shooting, I say.

    My wife also likes the purple S&W M$P15-22's, but those painted ones all seem to demand an extra $100 premium on the already sky-high price of a semi-auto .22.

    Back to the topic, make a decision yet about which AR you're going to end up with?
     
  21. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    Skeptical,

    Don't know where in Ohio you are, but one of the most respected vendors on M4carbine.net is located in your state and is a great source of info. I've followed his posts and I can tell you he is a big proponent of the M&P Sport, and while he sells it, I've read enough of his posts to believe he has integrity to post what he believes, and carry only quality gear.

    Check his prices out...

    www.gandrractical.com
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  22. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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  23. skeptical_in_Ohio

    skeptical_in_Ohio Member

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    Looks like a good site; sounds like a quality individual. He's NE and I'm SW (of course, than isn't like being NE and SW from each other in Texas - about 3 hours).
     
  24. tcoz

    tcoz Member

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    My son and I both have the $599 PSA carbine and we couldn't be happier. I bought mine in the local PSA store and he ordered his online and had it in his hands in ten days. This is our first AR so we wanted a quality rifle but didn't want to spend over about $750. There are "better" ones out there, but I doubt there are too many better ones at this price. Consider ordering one. You won't be sorry.
     
  25. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    This right here. All of their parts are top notch and that comp really works.
     
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