Help Selecting Extended Long Range Caliber

I'd go with the Creedmoor. Heavier bullets than .243, so ostensibly better stopping power way out there. Shoots flatter, stays supersonic further than .308.

And a whole crapload less recoil than either of the magnums. I used to have a .300 WinMag and it was no fun any more after the third round.

While not quite the power or ultimate range of the Creedmoor, I have a 6.5 Grendel. It out shoots both my .308's

None of the calibers you listed will be supersonic at 1,500 yards. Just something to think about.

burrhead said:

None of the calibers you listed will be supersonic at 1,500 yards. Just something to think about.

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The 300 Win Mag cartridge will. It's got an accurate barrel life of about 1000 rounds at 1500 yards. The 7 Rem Mag has about a 700 round life and might be supersonic at 1500 yards. Accuracy spec is 90% of all shots inside 1 MOA for 10-shot test groups in calm conditions properly tested with match grade barrel correctly installed using hand loads.

I'd use a Winchester 70 action. They're near 3 times stiffer than Rem 700's and it's flat surfaces resists twisting loose from epoxy bedding. Round receivers can shoot loose and have done so every 150 to 200 rounds or so shooting 28 and 30 caliber magnum ammo.

For 1500 yards, a long action receiver and the Swiss 6.5x55 ... I'm far from being any kind of expert, but that's where I'd start.

Bart, I misspoke concerning the 300WM. As the OP isn't reloading, is there any off the shelf ammo that's will have a high enough BC and velocity to do that? Not being argumentative, I honestly don't know. I can't wrap my mind around shooting long range and not rolling one's own.

I don't believe there is commercial ammo capable of supersonic 1500y shooting at sea level in any caliber short of maybe .338 Lapua.

If you handload, I'd look at a 7mm magnum (pick your fave...) shooting the new 180gr ELD-M from Hornady. Supersonic range at 2800 ft/s muzzle velocity is 1725 yards. No loaded ammo yet (if ever) though. A 1:8 or faster twist barrel is probably required.

The new Hornady 6.5mm 147gr ELD-M in a 6.5-284 or a .264 Win Mag would also do well. Probably a bit more reach than the 7mm actually. But you might need a 1:7.5" barrel.

Point is, there's no turnkey solution for this. Extreme long range is a handloading/custom rifle game. You have to pay to play...

burrhead said:

As the OP isn't reloading, is there any off the shelf ammo that's will have a high enough BC and velocity to do that?

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Hornady has 300 Win Mag match ammo with BTHP 195's that'll leave a 28" to 30" barrel at about 3100 fps then stay supersonic through 1500 yards in cool weather at sea level. Should be pretty accurate with a 1:12 twist barrel.

http://www.hornady.com/store/300-WIN-MAG-195-GR-BTHP/

What accuracy level do you need at 1500 yards?

Not handloading does limit your choices.

The 6.5x55 will let you use some quite high BC bullets. That's important if you want your trajectory to be relatively less affected by the wind. As mentioned, the same is true of the 264 Mag and a 6.5x284. I don't think the 6.5 Creedmoor is going to provide the MV you're going to want.

A press, scale, digital caliper, and die set is a pretty small investment and gives you a lot of versatility.

A 12 pound scoped 300 Win Mag is pleasant to shoot when properly slung up in prone.

Go with the creedmoor. Same trajectory as the 300wm with way less recoil.

I would personally go with the 6.5mm Creedmoor to start with. Reasons why:

1) Ammunition costs are low enough you will be able to shoot more for the same $$$ as with a .300 Winchester (the only other logical choice here). Shooting more will be much better money spent to build skill than a slightly flatter shooting round you only get to shoot 1/2 as many of at first.

2.) Recoil is low enough that you will be able to concentrate on fundamentals, learning how to build stable positions, refining natural point of aim and all the other stuff you'll have to develop to play the long range game. A rifle that recoils more is a distraction at first.

3) Rifle cost will be lower, and selection will be wider. For around $1500 you have a whole slew of chassis system bolt guns that will flat out shoot in 6.5mm Creemoor. No need for a custom gunsmith to build you a gun, or pay near $3K or more for a magnum action tactical rifle. A Ruger Precision Rifle, Savage equivalent, Tikka T3 equivalent etc will all do what you want with money left over to put towards good glass and a rock solid scope mount.

By the time you burn out your first barrel you'll be ready to move up to a larger caliber if you want to, because you will have more skill. By then you'll also have a good idea of what you actually want a $3K+ custom rig or factory tactical rifle in a magnum caliber. So you'll end up with the bigger stick at some point, but you'll by then understand exactly what to get for your use because of experience.

"Sure it's not ideal when target shooting but i will be shooting at large steel plates such as ones as big as a bison"

jmar, I just ran a rough ballistics calculation using Bart's numbers. In a full value 10 MPH wind, the bullet will drift over 15 feet at 1,500 yrds not counting spin drift and coriolis force. Bullet drop is about 68 feet. That's a big buffalo. I have a feeling from some of your other posts you've not shot at distance. As I suggested in another of your posts, go out and shoot 600/1,000 yrds and see what it's like. We all start somewhere and I'm not trying to beat you up but there's a lot more to shooting long distances that just lining up a scope and letting them fly. True long range shooting (1,000 yrds plus) is a long and expensive road.

farmerboy78 said:

Go with the creedmoor. Same trajectory as the 300wm with way less recoil.

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The 300 shoots flatter and drifts less In cross winds. Read post #13 in:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bench-holds-to-magnum-rifles.821367/

If you are just starting out, then honestly I would say grab a 223 or 308 win. Neither are particularly good for long range, but they are affordable to shoot, will teach you to read wind a bit, offer good barrel life, and offer minimal recoil to help you learn to shoot properly. factory ammo is good and easy to get too.

A savage or rem in 223 will get get you a lot of trigger time. I regularly ring torso size steel at 600 yards with my 16 inch barreled 223 SPS. 69 smk going about 2750 FPS. Rifle shoots very well and probably gets the most rounds through it out of everything I have simply due to cost/performance ratio. Practice is what you need. Literally shoot the rifle until the barrel is toast. At that point you will be in a much better position to pick a caliber and actually quantify wants and needs here. Not sure where you live, but there is no where here to shoot beyond 1000 yards easily...

7mm mag or 300 mag if you want to reach out on a budget. Both are affordable and with proper loadings can really reach out there. Both give a good barrel life too. Cost per shot is more than the 308 and 223 obviously, but they WILL reach out better if you need it. Both calibers recoil enough that I like a good brake on them... but I dont like recoil lol. Fat bastard or similar brake is my absolute favorite here.

The 7mm mag purpose built for the heavy bullets is formidable. 195g berger is great for what you are describing. The 300 mag built for the long heavy projectiles will do nearly as well with the 215 hybrid. I am putting together a 300 mag for this hunting season. Will be shooting the 215 berger hybrid, hopefully around 2800 FPS. Good affordable performance for when you do not need/want the 338.

Beyond that look into a 338 edge. THEN if you want to get serious about distance and spending money go for one of the wildcats off the cheytec cases.

Should probably add... If you are shooting long range, learn to handload. Much better bang for the buck and access to projectiles that are otherwise not in play. Beyond that you get better ammo for less money AND most importantly you get ammunition that can be tuned for your rifle that will best anything factory loaded. All those little details matter at long range. A 50 FPS spread on your rounds will wind up being a nasty vertical spread at distance, where if you make your own and do it well you can hopefully get that into single digits. That will let you hit things lol.

redbullit makes a great suggestion; start small and work yourself up. When I dipped my toe in this sport, I built a simple AR with a 24" White Oak barrel, Gisela trigger and a low end 4-12 Leupold scope. Shot at 600 for a couple of years and learned a lot about reading wind and and how to really shoot prone. I live in West Texas and the wind only stops to change direction. Got good at using flags and reading mirage and that education allowed me to move up to a serious rifle and long range shooting. There's a big difference in 600 vs 1,000. I've never shot over 1,200 because of the equipment cost. You have to walk before you can run and there's a lot to learn. Good luck.

Bart B. said:

The 300 Win Mag cartridge will. It's got an accurate barrel life of about 1000 rounds at 1500 yards. The 7 Rem Mag has about a 700 round life and might be supersonic at 1500 yards. Accuracy spec is 90% of all shots inside 1 MOA for 10-shot test groups in calm conditions properly tested with match grade barrel correctly installed using hand loads.

I'd use a Winchester 70 action. They're near 3 times stiffer than Rem 700's and it's flat surfaces resists twisting loose from epoxy bedding. Round receivers can shoot loose and have done so every 150 to 200 rounds or so shooting 28 and 30 caliber magnum ammo.

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I have a question about the Model 70 action being stiffer. I think I understand why, but, want clarification. A tube resists crushing because it is an arch and as such naturally distributes the force placed on it. A tube is fairly easy to flex because you have less surface area to resist the flexing. With a square action you end up with flat planes that are very resistant to flexing in one direction. Since you have planes at angles to each other you end up with high resistance to flexing in multiple directions.

#1 learn to handload, in precision rifle rounds it pays off. $.7 per shot vs $1.5 per shot, and you have a better choice of bullet

#2 have you ever shot at 1000? It it not easy to just walk outside, point, shoot anf HIT the target. Any gun can lob lead down range, but getting a hit requires much more

308 with good hand loads will run out of steam at around 1200, 6.5 maybe a little further.
300 win mag kicks like a mule and the barrel life is only about 1500rds on a good day. I imagine you want to shoot your rifle

Recoil management plays a role, do you want a bench rest style target gun? Will you be shooting more of a tactical/sniper type shooting from improvised positions? Will you shoot alone?

If alone, 6.5 creed. Lowest recoil, if you manage recoil you can see your shots and make corrections

If you dont mind rebarreling after 1500rds, have a spotter, and MUST get to 1500, the 300 win mag
There are factory options with a 230g berger hybrid target bullet at 2800 fps, that is 1200fps at 1500yds. It is $50 per 20 shots, but it is available (applied ballistics ammo)

I'll agree with two statements above, which effectively yield the purchase of 3 rifles:

1) A low cost, low recoil round to be used as a training rifle is one of the best investments which can be made. As Bart referenced, a 22LR at 100yrds is relatively good practice for a centerfire rifle like 308win at 600yrds. A 223rem fired at 600-800yrds is a fantastic trainer for a larger cartridge like 300wm past 1,000. In this case, a 223rem is my recommendation, as ammunition is incredibly cheap and readily available, and even if you DO reload, it only becomes cheaper. By getting a 223rem, you save on recoil, ammo cost (whether factory or reloaded), and barrel life, as you'll go 3000rnds+ on a barrel. This is the rifle with which you'll do the most of your shooting, as you'll need to practice more than you play. Consider this your trainer and short to mid range precision rifle. You'll not be in a bad spot if you don't reload this one.

2) Stepping up slightly, getting a cartridge which is capable of a little more range, but doesn't require a super heavy rifle nor a lot of powder (or high factory ammo cost) is another good investment. For most folks, this should be your "A rifle," where most of your "serious shooting" is done. Something on the order of a 6.5 Creed, 7-08, 260rem, even a 308win, 25-06, 243win etc. Nothing with a lot of recoil yet, but something which will push a .500-.600 BC bullet to 2800-3200fps, without beating you to death (i.e. 100-160grn bullets). This rifle is highly capable of hunting at mid-range, but will run out of steam for big game at long range. The disadvantages of using a 300win mag for THIS rifle are the high cost of ammo and high recoil (or high rifle weight), whereas the advantage unless you run a 30"+ barrel really isn't significant. The price of ammo here for 300win mag will pay for a new rifle in a more appropriate Extreme Long Range cartridge in a few short years if you're doing much shooting. This is your long range rifle, and ELR trainer. You CAN get away with not reloading this one, but generally the cost savings starts stacking up fast in this weight class. In this class, you're best off to choose a rifle with substantial barrel life and relatively low powder use, as you can over-spend on ammo and barrels quickly here and end up spending more on both than you would have on another rifle - like one chambered in the next step above this. If you need to kill game at 1,000, a guy could justify a 7rm or 300, but recognize you'll spend a lot more time on the training rifle above, or spend a LOT more money on barrels and ammo if you train with your magnum.

3) The pinnacle is the long range killing rifle. This is seldom shot, but when it is, the results are awe inspiring. Many guys go with 338 Lap, 408 Cheytac, or 50bmg here, which personally, I think is typically a mistake. Personally, for this rifle, I recommend taking a jump past the 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag to super magnums with 7-300, 300RUM at the bottom, 338 Edge, 338-378, etc. Something which will push a 0.7+ BC bullet as hard as your shoulder can tolerate, or as heavy as rifle you can carry. Most guys never develop the skill to actually capitalize on the difference between this level and the one below, which is why I believe so many folks bridge the gap between these two with rounds like 7rem and 300win mag, and never really do much shooting past 700 anyway. No matter which cartridge you choose in this class, the rifles are heavy, the recoil is high, the ammo cost is high (even reloading), and barrel life is poor. These are the rifles which let a real shooter test their own limits, and which let a wannabe shooter waste a LOT of money flinging shots at far away targets.

So 3 rifles - a 223rem, a 6.5creed, and a 338 Edge...

stringnut said:

I have a question about the Model 70 action being stiffer. I think I understand why, but, want clarification. A tube resists crushing because it is an arch and as such naturally distributes the force placed on it. A tube is fairly easy to flex because you have less surface area to resist the flexing. With a square action you end up with flat planes that are very resistant to flexing in one direction. Since you have planes at angles to each other you end up with high resistance to flexing in multiple directions.

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The Model 70 action isn't necessarily stiffer than the 700 action solely due to its shape, but rather because there's about a half pound more steel in a 70 action than an equal length 700 action. At their interior, every common bolt action is round, so when you view the cross section of the 700, you have a ring, when you view a 70 or 77, you have a mottled square with a hole in the middle... Overlaying the two cross sections, you can see the extra mass, which does provide stiffness. A tube is irrefutably stronger than a parallel prism. The prism has extreme strength parallel to the planar edges (force standing on stilts), but it is less tolerant of torque or non-parallel forces. The hoop strength of a tube adds incredible stiffness - MUCH stiffer per weight than a prism... Per weight, at least. But why does the Ruger 77 get such a reputation for being an incredibly stiff and strong action, despite having so much of its action cut open for the port? Simple - because it weighs almost 40% more than the 700 action... Good design can add stiffness - that's efficiency - but more steel adds stiffness too - that's brute force.

Effectively, a tube is nothing more than a parallel prism with an infinite number of sides. So its stiffness in EVERY direction is greater than that of a square, even if its strength in ONE direction isn't as great.

I might say, I do agree with Bart's assertion about the enhanced bedding contact for square actions, however,I do remind myself occasionally: many precision records have been fired with tubes.

The 243 just isn't going to do it for the ranges you are looking at. For me, its a 300 yard and closer white tail round- even if I can hit further, due to energy bleed. As a former sniper, I can work at 1,000 yards with a 308 like my M24 or Larue OBR easily, but I'm hard pressed to do so at 1500. The 300 WM will do it, but chamber pressures and other factors led to a short service life with OUR issued 300 WM rifles. Understand that the abilities regarding all of these cartridges I'm citing involve high quality (expensive) rifles, optics, mounts, and ammunition- along with the application of a considerable amount of ballistics technology. Most of all, a lot of training provided by numerous very capable instructors and mentors and MANY rounds fired downrange, with the training being absorbed by some very experienced individuals as it applies to shooting. I'm not saying this to condescend, as I have no idea what your experience level is. Won't speak for the 7 mag or the creed as I have no experience with either.

The problem with @FL-NC's comments is the fact the OP isn't hunting. Energy bleed isn't a concern when you're killing paper. Snipers have to kill people or disable equipment at range, but paper shooters don't really have that problem.

It's a lot easier to play with other cartridges at ELR, but I can push the 115dtac with a .585 BC (think David published a .600+, but several of us have trued to .585) at 2850fps in a 26" 1:8" barrel. I'm still supersonic at 1500yrds, barely (I'm at 1225ft). I run less drop with that load than I do with a 178 BTHP in .308win, with a touch less powder and a lot less recoil. The downside for a hunter is lacking killing power. The downside for a non-hunter is terrible barrel life.