Police chief squashes idea that gun owners might fight terrorists [Britain]

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Since those mass shooters commited suicide after being interrupted by an armed civilian, civilians should not think about being armed nor intervening?

Never said that.

The Sandy Hook murderer, the Columbine muderers (and others) committed suicide after being interrupted by armed police.

Wasn't there an armed guard at Columbine? Pulse nightclub? Also, the shooter at Clackamas mall was wearing body armor, right? Which is something that is almost guaranteed now with these shooters.

And then there's the Dallas tragedy last year, which really blows up the whole narrative of the mythological armed civilian stopping these types of events. The place was the opposite of an NPE or gun free zone; dripping firearms of every flavor. If there every was a case that the NRA could hang their hat on, it was that one. The robot saved the day, however.

One last time, none of that has anything to do with the crux of this thread though.
 
The only incident I can source where this actually happened as you state was in an airport in Istanbul where the attacker was shot and wounded .....by Police.
Airports are easy targets as citizens usually are completely defenseless.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll look into it.

You raise another point with the airports that hasn't been mentioned yet. It seems abundantly clear to me that supreme awareness training would be the number one skill set in this day and age, in regards to personal protection. Followed by CQC skills (for the able), particularly knowledge of improvised weapons, and solid first aid training. Because like you said, what about the airports, ballparks, places where firearms for the civilian will not be an option.
 
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Links to stories 10+ years ago? Let me see.....in one a teacher ran from the school to his car, retrieved his gun and went back, and the shooter surrendered. In another it was a adult student at a college who ran to his car for his gun and stopped the shooter.
I don't have time today to sort through a decade of Internet sights for old links. I'm not even saying stopping mass shootings is a common thing. It might not be common, but I reject arguments that claim that people rarely use guns in *insert event of choice here* so we should accept restrictions on our second amendment rights.
Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 incidents happen each year in which law abiding citizens employ a firearm in defense of self and or family. As of now there have been very few terrorist attacks in America, so I highly doubt there's even been opportunity for an armed citizen defense.
The stats regarding terrorist attacks on U. S. soil could change in the future, though.
 
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Thanks for pointing that out. I'll look into it.

You raise another point with the airports that hasn't been mentioned yet. It seems abundantly clear to me that supreme awareness training would be the number one skill set in this day and age, in regards to personal protection. Followed by CQC skills (for the able), particularly knowledge of improvised weapons, and solid first aid training. Because like you said, what about the airports, ballparks, places where firearms for the civilian will not be an option.

I think you may have missed the point.
The exact tactics you said wouldnt work, (due to the vest bomb) are exactly what LEOs world wide are doing.

Armed citizens do need training.
Hard to do when your elected goverment disarms you and tells you to run and hide.....and wait for a guy with a gun to save you.
 
I think you may have missed the point.
The exact tactics you said wouldnt work, (due to the vest bomb) are exactly what LEOs world wide are doing.

Why didn't you include the link? It would prevent the misunderstanding.

Are you saying that an armed citizen shot and stopped a suicide bomber with a dead man's switch?
 
Are you saying that an armed citizen shot and stopped a suicide bomber with a dead man's switch?
Have we seen suicide bombers with suicide switches? Or is it guys who pop their vests in train stations, or (like last week) guys wearing fake suicide vests who are just stabbing folks?

I'll concede that there are situations where you won't find an acceptable outcome, so what then? If a guy is wearing what looks like a suicide vest and he's just stabbed a young mom through the heart and now he's about to go to town on her infant, do you not stop him because his vest might go bang if you do so? If so, do you just let him keep going, when you're likely the only one in the crowd with the mindset and training to step up?

What's at the core of your argument here?
 
Have we seen suicide bombers with suicide switches?

Yes, Brussels. That is why they were wearing gloves.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...mbers-were-wearing-black-gloves-a6947971.html



I will say this…if you decide to shoot the bomber, you must expect to die. Remember that danger zone of 400 meters I talked about earlier? How many of you can make a head shot at 400 meters with your concealed carry pistol? If you can’t, you are in the kill zone. If the bomber detonates you may be seriously injured or killed. By definition, if you are close enough to take a shot, you are going to be within range of the bomb’s blast. If you do shoot the bomber, you must go for a head shot. If he is wearing a bomb vest, your bullet will likely detonate the bomb if you hit it.



The biggest problem is that you don’t know how the bomb is set to go off. Even if you instantly incapacitate the bomber with a brain stem shot, the bomb still may detonate. It could be on a timer, it could be command detonated by another person watching discreetly from afar, the terrorist could have a “dead man switch”, or your bullet could cause it to blow. The possibilities are endless. Like I said, if you engage you have to expect to be blown up.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/all-about-bombs
 
What's at the core of your argument here?

That arming the Brits with firearms will do nothing to stop the types of attacks that they are experiencing. Manchester, Nice, Boston Marathon, etc. That other skills, tools, and methods would be much more valuable.
 
http://www.newsmax.com/World/Europe/EU-Britain-London-Bridge-Attack/2017/06/04/id/794068/
The most onerous surveillance state in the world didn't preclude the attack.
Depending on gubmint to "fix it" is like an alcoholic trying to detox by drinking themselves sober.
a case could be made that they allow these attacks to keep the billions flowing for wars and police state because every guy that killed people was being watched with nothing done. next day in Britain May says she wants to regulate the internet and urging people not to reject the "paradise" they created there with die-versity
 
Why didn't you include the link? It would prevent the misunderstanding.

Are you saying that an armed citizen shot and stopped a suicide bomber with a dead man's switch?


Nope. A LEO shot the BG and he detonated.

The LEO used the exact same tactic we are suggesting that a responding armed citizen would: shoot the BG.

You are adamant that its a bad idea for citizens, yet it is the preferred tactic for trained responders.
Pick your poison.

The point is this:
The only difference in Bob and Officer Bob's response is training...
Which Bob may have.

I can advocate training.
I cannot advocate disarming citizens who are obviously at risk of attack.
 
That arming the Brits with firearms will do nothing to stop the types of attacks that they are experiencing. Manchester, Nice, Boston Marathon, etc. That other skills, tools, and methods would be much more valuable.
Well, the most common attacks I'm seeing are vehicle attacks that transition into mass-stabbings. What would be a better response than a populace ready to respond to that in the most effective way possible?

(Note that I'm not necessarily arguing with you re: gun-wielding Londoners. England seems to have lost their martial heritage, and I don't know that it can be recovered. However, men carrying canes, or people carrying cricket bats, or something comparable seems better than nothing. Your argument seems to be "explosives suck, and you'll die, so do nothing.")
 
Well, the most common attacks I'm seeing are vehicle attacks that transition into mass-stabbings. What would be a better response than a populace ready to respond to that in the most effective way possible?

(Note that I'm not necessarily arguing with you re: gun-wielding Londoners. England seems to have lost their martial heritage, and I don't know that it can be recovered. However, men carrying canes, or people carrying cricket bats, or something comparable seems better than nothing. Your argument seems to be "explosives suck, and you'll die, so do nothing.")

Read the link I quoted in post 86 above! Good info thefe! Geeeesh I did my own cofveve.... :D I meant "there."
 
Nope. A LEO shot the BG and he detonated.

The LEO used the exact same tactic we are suggesting that a responding armed citizen would: shoot the BG.

Bad Ninja,

All that does is prove what I've been saying the entire time.

Read the link in post #82 and then you decide what you would do. There's really nothing more that I can add to this discussion.
 
Read the link I quoted in post 86 above! Good info thefe!
I'll refer you back to my post #81 above.

Guy wearing vest that might be loaded with explosives, shouting Allahu Akbar or this is for Syria or some such has just stabbed Mommy and is about to start carving up a little girl. Do you not engage because he might explode?

That's a bad situation, and I don't argue there are some no-win situations in life. In a lethal force incident you might die - own that now, get comfortable with it, and don't worry about it. If the answer is stop some evil bastard from doing evil things to people who can't defend themselves or running away to protect my own life and allowing him to continue (and later choose an optimal place to detonate where it will maximize casualties), I'd like to think I know how I'll respond. That's my choice, and I'll take the consequences. Hell, it's why I have life insurance.

But I'd rather stop him cold, right there, even if doing so means I'll be in contact distance of a few pounds of high explosive when it's detonated. That's better than the alternatives to me, and I'd rather be armed well if I have to make that choice some day.

You seem to be arguing for another, better alternative. I'd like to know what your alternative is.
 
I'll refer you back to my post #81 above.

Guy wearing vest that might be loaded with explosives, shouting Allahu Akbar or this is for Syria or some such has just stabbed Mommy and is about to start carving up a little girl. Do you not engage because he might explode?

That's a bad situation, and I don't argue there are some no-win situations in life. In a lethal force incident you might die - own that now, get comfortable with it, and don't worry about it. If the answer is stop some evil bastard from doing evil things to people who can't defend themselves or running away to protect my own life and allowing him to continue (and later choose an optimal place to detonate where it will maximize casualties), I'd like to think I know how I'll respond. That's my choice, and I'll take the consequences. Hell, it's why I have life insurance.

But I'd rather stop him cold, right there, even if doing so means I'll be in contact distance of a few pounds of high explosive when it's detonated. That's better than the alternatives to me, and I'd rather be armed well if I have to make that choice some day.

You seem to be arguing for another, better alternative. I'd like to know what your alternative is.
No.....the article in the link pretty much covered what might happen in an encounter with a bomber, and what might happen if you shot the vest wearing or bomb carrying terrorist, to you, or others.
 
No.....the article in the link pretty much covered what might happen in an encounter with a bomber, and what might happen if you shot the vest wearing or bomb carrying terrorist, to you, or others.
So what is your solution to the problem?
 
No.....the article in the link pretty much covered what might happen in an encounter with a bomber, and what might happen if you shot the vest wearing or bomb carrying terrorist, to you, or others.


That is exactly what trained LEO do.
Shoot the attacker.
Vest or no vest.
If you have a better proven tactic, please enlighten us.
Every LEO on the planet would love to have a more effective, safer way to deal with these horrible attrocities.
 
And here's the comment lots of people are ignoring here:

From Fox:

But make no mistake. Amid the carnage and mayhem of this latest Saturday night massacre, England’s third terrorist attack in less than three months, the British police responded impressively. Their counter-assault was swift, and deadly. The knife-wielding perpetrators, wearing fake suicide vests, were quickly neutralized.

There will be no more pussy-footing around what this was -- no more endless debates about the motive and nature of such attacks. The attackers yelled: "This is for Allah." And they shouted in English. So even at this early stage of the investigation, it’s a safe bet that this was probably a home-grown militant Islamist attack, despite no immediate claim of responsibility.

What's the likelihood you'll run into fake vests versus real vests? How does that change your scenario, and your likely response?

And I'm still waiting for a better answer than "shooting someone is a bad idea if they might explode." Granted. What's the better idea? Wait 10 minutes and let a cop shoot him after 30 people get stabbed?
 
:confused: Did you READ the linked article?
Twice now. I didn't think it was terribly informative, but maybe it's because "some kids I knew" were making improvised pipe bombs and mortars back in elementary school and "explosives" aren't a new idea to me and I've been watching their usage in insurgencies worldwide with some interest.

But I still don't see how the possibility of explosives changes the optimal response in an active shooter/stabber/truck-running-over-crowds scenario. Either you get involved and stop the threat, or you allow a really bad guy to keep doing really bad things while you work to get safe. If you think you're likely to intervene, you try and have the best tools possible available. You do this knowing there's a possibility you won't live through the encounter, and we know after last week that sometimes "explosives" are actually empty water bottles taped up with silver tape to look scary, for better or worse.

You, on the other hand, have had an epiphany reading that article, and you would apparently respond differently than I would to an active stabber (the most common terrorist incident) making his way through defenseless people.

I'd like to know how your response profile changed as a result of reading that article.

Note that I'm making no moral judgements about intervening or not intervening. I don't have kids, I've got good life insurance, and I have a reasonably strict moral code that would make living with myself difficult if I abandoned people who couldn't protect themselves to the worst some deranged individual chose to subject them to. Other people feel differently. Other people have small children. We all make our own choices in life and we live with the consequences. If your goal is to get your family home above all, then I hope you succeed.

But I don't see how the possibility of a suicide bomber changes your response. And I didn't see the article providing the answer to this question.
 
Saying I had an epiphany is a rather silly exxaggeration.
I think the article gave a few good pointers on how terrorist bombings happen & what to look out for. A bomb may not change the optimum response but it may change the optimum outcome. If you manage to shoot the madstabber, end of incident. Shooting a guy with a bomb might stop him dead, but the bomb might still go off, as when a Deadman switch is used, or another terrorist sets it off demotely.

We all like to think of ourselves as Rambo. We're not. I can't tell you exactly what I WOULD do, only what I imagine I'd like to do, in a terrorist attack.
If I am ever in one, and survive, I'll get back here and post what I did....or did not .... do.
 
Logical fallacy

OC-Trainer, you are arguing from some logical fallacies, and you are also ignoring some facts.
Your assertion is:
Armed citizens haven't stopped the mass murders in (your chosen database), therefore, armed citizens cannot stop mass murder.
This is the argument from antecedent fallacy. (Note: use of a logical fallacy doesn't automatically negate the conclusion - the conclusion can still be correct, it's just a sub-par way to arrive at the conclusion.)

For example, I gave my son 160 algebraic equations, and he didn't solve a single one. Therefore my son will never solve algebraic equations. (This argument omits the facts that he is only four years old and hasn't taken algebra, however.)

What would have happened if there were more armed citizens? Who knows? There is no way to know for certain. Also, as others have said, an attack stopped early doesn't even make it into the database in the first place. This is like arguing the Pittsburg Steelers are a great team by looking at a database of their winning seasons (and not any of the losing seasons).

Or, I studied a database with 160 house fires resulting in a total structural loss, and concluded fire extinguishers are useless.

"They use special detonators that still activate the bomb once shot."
How many examples can you cite where they have actually used special detonators? It's actually rather rare, in fact. (And arguing things are so rare that they don't matter - it's kinda your thing)

Heck, there are certainly examples where the suicide vests weren't even real, so yes shooting someone with a fake suicide vest would effectively stop the attack.
They couldn't be bothered to even make a real suicide vest, much less a deadman's switch. "Oh how could they take the chance of blowing everybody up". Well, given there are fake suicide vests, and few examples of actual deadman triggers on real suicide vests, and the fact that someone with a real suicide vest is likely intent on detonating it, I'd say it's a reasonable course of action to shoot such a terrorist in the act of killing victims. (Besides, do the police have special "suicide vest disarming" bullets?)

Police might shoot the "good guy with a gun". How many examples can you cite where that has actually happened?

Will there be a clear case of an armed citizen stopping a terrorist attack? Probably not.
Certainly not in Britain, so that police chief can sleep soundly at night knowing he, at least, won't be ever be wrong about that, since Britons would never even get the chance.

If Britain suddenly reversed course and allowed their citizens the right to effective self-defense, would one of them stop a terrorist attack in progress? Probably not, but I wouldn't say "never".

There are scenarios where escape wasn't a possibility for some victims, due to the terrain (walls) or disability, so "run and/or hide" doesn't save everyone. There were scenarios where a citizen armed with a gun could well have stopped the attack.

Overall, the odds of someone stopping a terrorist attack are indeed quite low.
That's still a lousy argument for denying the populace the means of effective self defense. It's disgusting, in fact.

Now, be on your merry way to declaring yourself right (and presumably deriving great pleasure from it). Score one for keeping Brits disarmed!
 
Logical fallacy

OC-Trainer, you are arguing from some logical fallacies, and you are also ignoring some facts.
Your assertion is:
Armed citizens haven't stopped the mass murders in (your chosen database), therefore, armed citizens cannot stop mass murder.
This is the argument from antecedent fallacy. (Note: use of a logical fallacy doesn't automatically negate the conclusion - the conclusion can still be correct, it's just a sub-par way to arrive at the conclusion.)

For example, I gave my son 160 algebraic equations, and he didn't solve a single one. Therefore my son will never solve algebraic equations. (This argument omits the facts that he is only four years old and hasn't taken algebra, however.)

What would have happened if there were more armed citizens? Who knows? There is no way to know for certain. Also, as others have said, an attack stopped early doesn't even make it into the database in the first place. This is like arguing the Pittsburg Steelers are a great team by looking at a database of their winning seasons (and not any of the losing seasons).

Or, I studied a database with 160 house fires resulting in a total structural loss, and concluded fire extinguishers are useless.

"They use special detonators that still activate the bomb once shot."
How many examples can you cite where they have actually used special detonators? It's actually rather rare, in fact. (And arguing things are so rare that they don't matter - it's kinda your thing)

Heck, there are certainly examples where the suicide vests weren't even real, so yes shooting someone with a fake suicide vest would effectively stop the attack.
They couldn't be bothered to even make a real suicide vest, much less a deadman's switch. "Oh how could they take the chance of blowing everybody up". Well, given there are fake suicide vests, and few examples of actual deadman triggers on real suicide vests, and the fact that someone with a real suicide vest is likely intent on detonating it, I'd say it's a reasonable course of action to shoot such a terrorist in the act of killing victims. (Besides, do the police have special "suicide vest disarming" bullets?)

Police might shoot the "good guy with a gun". How many examples can you cite where that has actually happened?

Will there be a clear case of an armed citizen stopping a terrorist attack? Probably not.
Certainly not in Britain, so that police chief can sleep soundly at night knowing he, at least, won't be ever be wrong about that, since Britons would never even get the chance.

If Britain suddenly reversed course and allowed their citizens the right to effective self-defense, would one of them stop a terrorist attack in progress? Probably not, but I wouldn't say "never".

There are scenarios where escape wasn't a possibility for some victims, due to the terrain (walls) or disability, so "run and/or hide" doesn't save everyone. There were scenarios where a citizen armed with a gun could well have stopped the attack.

Overall, the odds of someone stopping a terrorist attack are indeed quite low.
That's still a lousy argument for denying the populace the means of effective self defense. It's disgusting, in fact.

Now, be on your merry way to declaring yourself right (and presumably deriving great pleasure from it). Score one for keeping Brits disarmed!

I've never seen someone spill so much e-ink and say nothing.

I've laid it out throughout this thread. I've provided third-party info that supports my thought process. You poo-poo the FBI study and it is the gold standard for that particular subset. I am not aware of anything as thorough on terrorist suicide bombers. This is the most up to date info on the subject. You've provided nothing to dispute or debunk anything I've said, other than insults. If fact, you won't be able to post anything to dispute what I originally stated on page one.

So since you have it all figured out, how do you survive shooting a suicide bomber or use a firearm to stop a pressure cooking bomb? Or how are you going to stop a 20,000 lb truck (possibly filled with explosives) with your 1911, Glock, or CCW? The greatest minds in the world can't figure it out, but Mr. Prijador on THR has the solution. Add something of substance to the thread. Share it with us....

Edit: Already logged off, huh? Convenient. I'll be waiting for your response.
 
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Let's be honest - history has shown (in the US, at least) that the armed, non LEO/military citizen, is almost always a non-factor in terrorist attacks and mass shootings (FBI definition).
Might be true in the US, but in Israel citizens have stopped attacks. Sometimes after one person has already been injured or killed, but at least preventing additional mayhem. My personal favorite is the guy who after being stabbed from behind, pulled the knife out of his own neck and used it to kill the terrorist before the latter could attack anyone else.
 
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