Obsession with velocity

The only time velocity is critical is having enough energy to expand the hunting bullet at range.

I got into to hand loading over 4 decades ago because I wanted more accuracy than the factory ammo gave me. I still load for accuracy and normally don't care what the velocity is. I did not buy a crony till several years ago, so up to that point I had no velocity data. All I knew was that my ammo was the most accurate I could produce for that gun/ammo combo. Still load for accuracy the crony data is just another tool to help me develop the load. A lot of time I will not even set it up till after I have the load finish.

In my experience, the highest velocity loads are rarely the most accurate. Standard deviation can measure the consistency of loading technique, but often doesn't have a lot to do with accuracy. I once had a phenomenally low SD, using Varget in 405 gr .45-70 loads, but the bullets were going through a 200yd target sideways.
Some overbore cartridges (including the ubiquitous .223).......... all they really have going for them is velocity, so one has to make the most of it.

Hokie_PhD said:

Can someone explain this to me?

I was watching a video yesterday and the guy was obsessed with velocity. His reloading techniques were ok, but he's a bit sloppy and careless. In this video he forgot to zero his calipers then dismissed it. He adjusted his scope in the middle of testing his groups for accuracy, and then went on about the groups where he didn't dismiss a flyer when it was clear his group was otherwise the tightest.

he then went on and on about standard deviation of the velocities.

So I ask this as is it me or are too many folks hung up on the velocity of their ammo over the accuracy?

It seems to me that form what I'm learning min and max velocity aren't the most accurate. In many cases there are two spots where the ammo groups better and they're some place in the middle.

Now I understand that high figures are cool. I understand that in theory faster does more damage. But isn't reality that if you're not hitting where you're aiming then the extra velocity isn't worth the trade off?

I guess my understanding is there are trade offs, and we make them to meet our goals. So I'm real curious why the obsession with velocity?

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I want both and search through as many powders as it takes to get there. I wanna knock the nuts out of a squirrel's hand at 300 yards, flatten the big game as far out as is needed and still be within my ethical standards, and poke holes in varmint vitals (I.e. coyotes) as far out as is needed to protect the calving herd. This means accuracy is paramount, but if loads x,y,z, all shoot .75moa at 500 yds, but load z is getting there sooner than x and y, load z becomes my favorite.

The max load data point is usually just before the pressure exceeds SAAMI specs or shows other problems. There are some that always load for full tilt or more and want this to work. I find that most often the most accurate/low SD/temp stable load for me is the first accuracy node. I am all about accuracy and repeatability in rifle rounds. With hand gun ammo I go for flawless cycling and the tightest group/temp stability. An added bonus is not beating up the shooter or the firearm unnecessarily. YMMV

Hokie_PhD said:

So I'm real curious why the obsession with velocity?

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When I was first starting out I wasn't the best shot yet. Thus it seemed better that my hand loads were much faster than my peers factory loads. After all, their rifle, my rifle, factory or handloads, they all shot very similar in my hands.
After a few years learning and shooting, my form is much better. As a result I am able to differentiate between factory fodder and a finely hand loaded round built for the firearm in mind. And lately becoming frustrated when some handloads seem to defy accuracy, when common Winchester white box bullets seem to be drawn to the same spot in the target.
I think this is mostly a natural progression many humans go through in the shooting sports. When small groups were unattainable, large numbers were. Now the numbers are to help me understand the load and to put the tight groups where ever I choose to place them. Usually...

I really didn't get the folks that pushed for the highest velocity from their reloads. You see a lot of it on forums like Snipers Hide. I figured it was just a lot of internet vibrato. I was perfectly happy with loading .308 on the slow side for my M1A because I had a good accurate load and I was saving some wear and tear on my brass and rifle.

All of that started to change when I began loading for rifles built for performance at longer ranges. Trying to hit a gong at 1,000 yards with a .308 is hard enough for me. Trying to do it consistently with a bullet flying at a lazy 2,400 FPS is even harder.

Having said that, I'm still looking for the best accuracy when working up a load, I just have more appreciation for the node on the higher end of velocity now.

Personally im looking for the highest velocity with acceptable accuracy for my needs. With some guns and loads that well below max, BUT if its much less than i expect its on to a new powder and or bullet combo.

Within my expected usages .5" is as good as 1.5"
If i can get another 150-200fps within that range i generally will. That isnt to say that i wont drop 50fps to get an bit more accuracy from a load, but offten i can usually find a bullet powder combo that gives me near moa or better performance and close to top velocities.
Im also quite willing to exceed published data as long as im not seeing pressure with any of the ways i can check.
Ive found some rifles will shoot as well at the higher end as they do lower, some much better, and some wont...this is of course component combo oriented, perhaps more so powder oriented. Slow to really slow powders in overbore cartridges generally do better closer to max from my experience.

Again this is all specific to my taste, and usage.

Thought about this late. Something else that needs to be taken into account as well is bullet performance, especially when talking about taking game.
I tend to shoot long heavy lead core bullets, so my launch velocity are usually somewhere between 2700-3100fps. The game I generally shoot is fairly light bodied, and at ranges from 50-200yds, longest shot im willing to walk for is probably double that. My bullets almost always exit except on the lightest calibers, or dead on/dead away shots. Ive had to change my loads to deal with specific hunts, to get the correct bullet performance (like my stw for cows at sub 100yds).

The obsession with velocity comes from the gun rags. The assorted writers have been prattling on about velocity out of the rifles that only ever shoot itty-bitty sub, sub MOA groups for eons.
"...min and max velocity aren't the most accurate..." Usually not, but they can be. S'why you have to work up the load from the start load.
And calipres that constantly need calibrating you throw away.

All other things being equal, a the load with the lowest standard deviation should be the most accurate. If all the rounds are leaving the barrel at the same speed, then they should all end up in one tight little cluster. However this requires reloading practices that produce identical cartridges, shooting technique that is flawless, and co-operating weather. So in the real world a low standard deviation is a great indicator, but not that end all.

-Jenrick

Heh, I am on the other end of the spectrum. The vast majority of what I shoot is targets and small game. High velocity and recoil are a big negative out of my pistol caliber rifles. So I started reloaded to get accurate rounds that keep velocity low so as to avoid them picking up a lot of speed in a rifle barrel and blowing up game. Since these rounds double as target fodder very nicely, I can achieve my aims without a lot of replication. Fast stuff I rarely need. For the amount of shooting I do at big game, I can buy a box of factory every year or two and call it done.

Hokie_PhD said:

Can someone explain this to me? I was watching a video yesterday and the guy was obsessed with velocity. His reloading techniques were ok, but he's a bit sloppy and careless. In this video he forgot to zero his calipers then dismissed it. He adjusted his scope in the middle of testing his groups for accuracy, and then went on about the groups where he didn't dismiss a flyer when it was clear his group was otherwise the tightest. he then went on and on about standard deviation of the velocities. So I ask this as is it me or are too many folks hung up on the velocity of their ammo over the accuracy? It seems to me that form what I'm learning min and max velocity aren't the most accurate. In many cases there are two spots where the ammo groups better and they're some place in the middle. Now I understand that high figures are cool. I understand that in theory faster does more damage. But isn't reality that if you're not hitting where you're aiming then the extra velocity isn't worth the trade off? I guess my understanding is there are trade offs, and we make them to meet our goals. So I'm real curious why the obsession with velocity?

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You can have a good SD and Good ES, bad SD and good ES or good ES and bad SD. Accuracy nodes are just a series of combinations that the barrel likes, and the tools you have to measure it, which a lot of these chronos will have different results as they measure.
Like mentioned above, the only useful thing is terminal performance with velocity. Although if you are pushing a bullet to its max, it might give you extra come ups and b.c as well. I've never had a problem with loading to round about factory muzzle velocities. No real reason to stress your gat or your brass for a few (maybe) hundred FPS that wont make a difference anyways at long range.

Hokie_PhD wrote:
...are too many folks hung up on the velocity of their ammo over the accuracy?

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Yes.

We all know them; the guys who can't parallel park but still have to have "the ultimate driving machine". Dilettantes, obsessed with externalities rather than actual performance.

But isn't reality that if you're not hitting where you're aiming then the extra velocity isn't worth the trade off?

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If you're not hitting what you're aiming at, then it's all a waste.

There is no reason that both accuracy and high velocity can't be achieved. I'm not one to hot rod anything, I won't try to turn a 30-06 into a 300 magnum. But if I'm loading for a 30-06 I want 30-06 velocities, not 300 Savage. If you can't get a 30-06 to shoot 150's at 3000 fps and get sub MOA accuracy you're doing something wrong. Why settle for a load at 2700 fps. My most accurate loads have always been very near max loads. If you're not getting good accuracy at those speeds then maybe you need to try another powder.

There is also a flip side to the question. Why the obsession with accuracy? From field positions a hunting rifle that will shoot 1 MOA has all the accuracy that can be used. It would be foolish to give up 200-300 fps in order to try to get a rifle to shoot 1/2 MOA off a bench. In the hunting fields, without a bench, a 1 MOA rifle will be every bit as accurate as a 1/2 MOA rifle and a 2 MOA rifle will make kills on game animals at longer ranges than most people will ever shoot.

There is also a trend where hunters want to pretend they are military snipers and use rifles and optics poorly suited for hunting. There is an obsession with placing 5 shots close together, but not so much on actually being able to hit game at varying ranges where tiny group size means nothing. My goal is to be able to hit an 8-12" diameter kill zone at ranges from 50-500 yards. Faster bullets make that a lot easier than a rifle that puts 5 shots into a 1/2" group at 100 yards.

I dont know why my last post didnt come up earlier. huh.

Hokie_PhD said:

Can someone explain this to me?

So I ask this as is it me or are too many folks hung up on the velocity of their ammo over the accuracy?

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I NEVER use a chronograph when working up a load. The only criteria I use for a good load is accuracy. Once I have a load I'm happy with, I might get the chronograph out and when I've done so, the bullets have always been going fast enough.

I am guessing that this "video" was on You Tube??

If so then what can be said??

Many folks on the "tube" are idiots.

I'm obscessed with velocity.

I load for accuracy but I want to know what velocity my loads are getting. I've reduced loads when I have felt the velocity is higher than I've felt prudent.

Also, with AR in particular, if primer pocket life is shorter than I like, I have found if I reduce the velocity a little, I can improve primer pocket life. Knowing the velocity I can minimze the reduction in velocity instead of just guessing how much to reduce the load.

I will agree that one does not need to know the velocity to load accurate safe ammunition. It is another tool for the reloader's tool box. There are other "tools" that may accomplish my goals better but they come at a price and time cost.

Whats velocity?...

I dont chase velocity, but I do work well into the upper end of the load chart and will run compressed loads if that gets me the best accuracy. For the record, I do not own a chrono, but do chrono my loads once in awhile when my buddy has his out. I do practice precise and repeatable reloading, so I can duplicate an accurate load at will.

One thing people forget is that often a rifle will have 2 or maybe even 3 accuracy nodes as you increase the powder charge. So you could stop at a lower node if you are happy with the accuracy, but I also consider the purpose of the bullet. If its blammo for an AR, my loads are somewhat milder., and Im happy with a lower node. If Im hunting or shooting longer distances, I will chase a little looking for the next node. For example, in my primary AR is actually has 3 nodes. My blammo is loaded for the middle node with a 25.2gr charge of H335 with 55gr bullets. I did find a node at 23 something, and another at 26.5ish which is a bit spicey with H335. But in my hunting loads, 53gr Vmax, 55gr SPs and target loads 68-77gr HPBTs, SMKs, TMKS, ELDs etc, I will chase as it creates a more effective round either on the animal or at longer ranges or both. I will not post these loads as they do need to be worked up to and they are all close to or over chart max, but they are accurate or I wouldnt bother.

This part some guys might not approve of. When starting out I use a load chart from several locations as a guide. I will choose my powder and fill to the shoulder of the case and then weigh the charge. This charge weight will be close to the most accurate load 80% of the time. This is due to most powders are the most efficient when case fill is at 90% or better. I compare this to the load charts. So as an example, the load range for a case is 38-42gr on a chart. My case fill test to the shoulder weighs in at 41.3gr, which is within the margin of safety as its on the chart. From that measurement I will take plus or minus 1% of the charge weight and build 3 test loads of 5 shots each. So my ladder will be 39.9, 41.3, 41.7. 95% of the time this will produce an accurate load, I might fine tune a couple 10ths of a grain from one of those and may end up with a load that is over book max. So say my 41.7 gives the best accuracy, I will take that load +/- .2 gr to see what is best. Obviously book max could be lower, say 41gr in the above example, and loading to my suspected best load might be a little sketchy. At that point I do take a little more care, and build up a little slower, but unless we are seeing really heavy compression with the 41.7 load, Id still load 5 and if I dont see wicked pressure signs on the 1st round of the string would shoot all 5. This is obviously a simplified example, as smaller cases like 223 give alot less margin and require smaller jumps than something like a 30-06.

Best I can tell, there are 6 reasons to focus on velocity:

1) to increase terminal effect;
2) to flatten trajectory;
3) to minimize wind-drift;
4) to minimize vertical dispersion by seeking consistent velocity;
5) to meet some minimum requirement of a competition or hunting regulation or the like; and
6) for the fun/heck of it.

I think that's the list of why. As to whether those reasons make sense in any particular circumstance, you'd have to know which one applied and what the circumstances were.

For instance, nobody buys a 22-250 in order to shoot slow.

Hokie_PhD said:

It seems to me that form what I'm learning min and max velocity aren't the most accurate. In many cases there are two spots where the ammo groups better and they're some place in the middle.

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This tends to be an oversimplification and an often propagated colloquialism which sounds good, but really doesn't carry much water. The latter statement is effectively based on the principle of positive compensation, and the fact it "falls someplace in the middle" for many powders is no more likely than falling at either end of the spectrum with any other powder. If your node falls in the middle of a powder's load data, then you can either be satisfied with middle of the road velocities, or you can switch to a different powder.

There are plenty of proven loads for which the maximal accuracy is at or near max. 27.5grn Varget under a 55 match JHP or 50 V-max is a proven accuracy load, 24.0grn Varget under a 77 SMK (which I believe is actually a half grain over book if I remember correctly) is a proven "standard" Highpower match load. I've not found a Ruger 44mag which didn't shoot well with the 300grn XTP seated to the second cannelure over 22.0grn H110/W296 (Overbook load, proceed at your own risk). Guys have been improving cases for many years to pick up a bit of extra speed to reach the next node without pushing over the pressure cap. I've done well using a hand-me-down near max load of H4530 in 284win under the 180 Berger.

Guys tend to be happy finding a middle-of-the-road load which shoots well, as it doesn't stress the rifle nor beat up brass as much as might max loads (and saves a teeny bit on powder), and a lot of guys don't care to push around 20 different powders just to find the one which shoots as well as a lower pressure load from another powder. But you'll find plenty of max or near max loads which shoot well.

Which reminds me of a few other truths: 1) most guys shooting known distance matches don't worry much about ~50yrds difference in their trajectory, and 2) guys who are hunting aren't shooting far enough to make a significant difference in killing effectiveness - not even those 50yrds.

So what is the penalty for settling for a middle-of-the-road load which shoots well? Less rifle stress, longer brass life, less powder cost, and no practical difference? Why go hunt for the extra speed if your application doesn't call out a need for it?

When I first started rolling my own I went through the sizzle phase for a couple of years. Luckily I grew out of it and decided that if I wanted a 30 cal to run magnum velocities I should get a magnum. Since then I have taken deer with calibers ranging from 357 mag to 300 WSM with many many calibers in between. End results? They all kill when you put the bullet where it needs to go. The majority of the deer that I have taken over the last several years have been taken with starting loads. The bucks haven't noticed the difference.

Varminterror said:

There are plenty of proven loads for which the maximal accuracy is at or near max.

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That's true, and you don't have to take Varminterror's word for it. A cursory look through any reloading manual that goes to the trouble of noting their most accurate load (Sierra, Nosler) will show several bullet/powder combos that are at their recommended max.

That fact alone shows that "max" is relative, and in the cases noted in my comment above, probably a on the conservative side. Why else would the lawyers let bullet makes point their customers toward the dreaded "max".....unless there was a degree of margin in there.

The margin is for us reloaders to detrmine through responsibly working up a load toward the published "max", but never starting there.

Sorry if that states the obvious, but it took me a while before I felt comfortable getting anywhere near a published max. Now my most accurate load in .308 is almost 2g over what Sierra list as max and shoots 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups at 100/500/1000 yards with no pressure signs.

Now, I developed that load in the spring. I have yet to try it on a 100deg Texas summer day

Nature Boy said:

Now, I developed that load in the spring. I have yet to try it on a 100deg Texas summer day

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I guess that depends on the powder in use. For something like Varget, I wouldnt raise an eyebrow as its not effected by temp very much. However ball powders like 748, H335, etc, yeah, scary and fast which is why my loads with those powders are always pretty mild and I never use them in accuracy ammo.