Obsession with velocity

[hdwhit]

Varminterror wrote:
There are plenty of proven loads for which the maximal accuracy is at or near max.

Yeah, agreed.

But to Hokie_PhD's point in his original post, if maximal accuracy occurs near the maximum charge, we get there by developing the load according to established reloading procedures, not acting like Tim the Tool Man Taylor and saying that if the maximum load in the manual is 25 grains that's where we start because faster is always better.

 

[RPZ]

There is velocity for velocity's sake. As an example, the velocity comparison between a .308 and a .30-06 with the same bullet (discounting the ability of the '06 to handle the heaviest .30 bullets). Using a premium hunting bullet, all other things being equal, a game animal is not going to know the difference of being struck with a bullet a hundred or two feet per second more.

Variation is another thing altogether. The less the velocity variation, the more a tighter group due to flight consistency. Higher velocities will also correspondingly reduce wind drift due to reduced flight time.

 

[Kaldor]

There is velocity for velocity's sake. As an example, the velocity comparison between a .308 and a .30-06 with the same bullet (discounting the ability of the '06 to handle the heaviest .30 bullets). Using a premium hunting bullet, all other things being equal, a game animal is not going to know the difference of being struck with a bullet a hundred or two feet per second more.

Variation is another thing altogether. The less the velocity variation, the more a tighter group due to flight consistency. Higher velocities will also correspondingly reduce wind drift due to reduced flight time.

Actually the animal might know if the bullet hits at 200 FPS more. It is entirely situational. If you are shooting the edge of the effective range on a cartridge just a hundred FPS can determine if its DRT or you go looking as it can effect bullet performance in a big way.

Take a cartridge like 300 BO. A 125gr SST bullet (proven performer) from this rifle with a stout charge of powder (W296 is my choice) will shoot about 2100fps, and at 200 yards will still maintain enough energy to drop a deer with a good shot as you still maintain about 1700fps at 200 yards which is enough energy for the bullet to function correctly. Take the same bullet but only shoot 2000fps, and at 200 yards you only have about 1500fps, which is marginal for an animal like deer if you are not getting good bullet performance. The exact same thing can be said for any cartridge, but the 300 BO is an extreme case of it because it doesnt have alot of wiggle room due to very low case volume.

 

[RPZ]

Actually the animal might know if the bullet hits at 200 FPS more. It is entirely situational. If you are shooting the edge of the effective range on a cartridge just a hundred FPS can determine if its DRT or you go looking as it can effect bullet performance in a big way.

Take a cartridge like 300 BO. A 125gr SST bullet (proven performer) from this rifle with a stout charge of powder (W296 is my choice) will shoot about 2100fps, and at 200 yards will still maintain enough energy to drop a deer with a good shot as you still maintain about 1700fps at 200 yards which is enough energy for the bullet to function correctly. Take the same bullet but only shoot 2000fps, and at 200 yards you only have about 1500fps, which is marginal for an animal like deer if you are not getting good bullet performance. The exact same thing can be said for any cartridge, but the 300 BO is an extreme case of it because it doesnt have alot of wiggle room due to very low case volume.

My point was more along the lines of two hunters. One with a .308 one with a 30-06. Both loaded with say 150 grain Nosler Partitions. I doubt that the average deer would know the difference out to 200 yards or perhaps even 300. Some people do shoot game much farther out than that, but not many.

 

[Kaldor]

My point was more along the lines of two hunters. One with a .308 one with a 30-06. Both loaded with say 150 grain Nosler Partitions. I doubt that the average deer would know the difference out to 200 yards or perhaps even 300. Some people do shoot game much farther out than that, but not many.

Im agreeing with you, as most hunters carry way more gun than they actually need. I laugh at guys carrying anything more than a 308 when they take 100 yard shot 95% of the time at deer. A 300 yard shot with a 308 or a 30-06 is pretty easy providing both you and you equipment can do it, but 400 with 308 is a stretch, and 500 with 30-06. This is where having a full power load can make a huge difference as you can buck the wind, less bullet drop, and your bullets are more effective. This is where I advocate running as hot as you can, as long as your gun is still accurate!

 

[RPZ]

I suppose a more succint way is to say the bullet is much more important - matched to the intended impact velocity range.

 

[Scooter22]

I'll take accuracy over velocity. That being said I've never loaded to max. I always stay below. If I need that extra power I;ll go to a larger round. I reload and shoot for. I don't want every pull of the trigger to be a possible boom. jmho.

 

[joed]

Am I the only one that has gotten excellent accuracy at or very close to a max load? I go for accuracy but have found in most cases it comes at or very close to a max loading. Sure, I've gotten good accuracy at lower loadings but I see no sense in stopping there if I can get just as good accuracy at a higher velocity.

 

[tcoz]

I don't own a chronograph but I don't shoot out past 300 yards either. If I was shooting 800-1000+ I'd be more interested in velocity. I always start at the bottom of the range and rarely exceed 75% of max when developing a load.
The only time I wish I had a chrono is when plugging velocity into a ballistic calculator but I can estimate it pretty well and adjust from there.

 

[Captcurt]

Am I the only one that has gotten excellent accuracy at or very close to a max load? I go for accuracy but have found in most cases it comes at or very close to a max loading. Sure, I've gotten good accuracy at lower loadings but I see no sense in stopping there if I can get just as good accuracy at a higher velocity.

I have had several guns that liked hot loads. A Ruger 77 270 comes to mind. It liked a 130gr Nosler Solid Base, forerunner of the Ballistic Tip, with max load of IMR-4895. It was hot, but the hotter it got the tighter it grouped. Then there was a Ruger 77 Compact 260 that loved a 120 Speer HotCor over a max load of IMR-4350. It would make a whitetail wilt. The last few years I have taken more deer than most people get to see. The guns varied from a 7 mm TCU Contender Pistol, GP100 357, through 300WSM but none of them liked it hot.. The deer never noticed the difference.

 

[Varminterror]

These threads always suggest an “either or” relationship for precision and velocity. I have never found this polarity to be true. Finding a precise load at near max, at max, or even over book listed maxes - but without sticky bolt lift or primer flattening - has never been something I found difficult. If a node falls too far below the speed I want, I swap powders. If the case can’t hold enough powder to get the bullet as fast as I’d like, I look at a different case.

We spool ourselves into thinking there’s some magical trade off, and act like only well-moraled and high principled reloaders will choose the right path of precision over speed... it’s way easier than that.

Just to drop a bit more flame bait - look how many guys are pushing 6.5 creeds and 6 creeds at max speeds, or 6BR’s and Dashers at blistering speeds, and delivering supreme precision. The entire sport of precision rifle competition is inundated with guys running max, near max, or over book loads, delivering itty bitty groups.

 

[GRIZ22]

Most of my loads are a bit slower than factory ammo with a given bullet weight. If I need more power I go to a bigger caliber.

JMO, it all works for me.

 

[Toprudder]

I sometimes get a little hung up on velocity, but not necessarily max velocity. If I am making loads for 9mm or 45, I want accurate loads (within reason) and reduced recoil. If I am loading for my 44mag revolver, I have some slightly reduced recoil plinking loads, but I also like full-tilt boogie loads as well - as long as they all are reasonably accurate. But my S&W 460, that can shoot 45LC if I choose - well, go big or go home. I don't load to max pressure, though, I load so that the cases extract without problems.

When I was first starting out I wasn't the best shot yet. Thus it seemed better that my hand loads were much faster than my peers factory loads. After all, their rifle, my rifle, factory or handloads, they all shot very similar in my hands.
After a few years learning and shooting, my form is much better. As a result I am able to differentiate between factory fodder and a finely hand loaded round built for the firearm in mind. And lately becoming frustrated when some handloads seem to defy accuracy, when common Winchester white box bullets seem to be drawn to the same spot in the target.
I think this is mostly a natural progression many humans go through in the shooting sports. When small groups were unattainable, large numbers were. Now the numbers are to help me understand the load and to put the tight groups where ever I choose to place them. Usually...

You have pretty much described my journey thus far.

All other things being equal, a the load with the lowest standard deviation should be the most accurate. If all the rounds are leaving the barrel at the same speed, then they should all end up in one tight little cluster. However this requires reloading practices that produce identical cartridges, shooting technique that is flawless, and co-operating weather. So in the real world a low standard deviation is a great indicator, but not that end all.

I agree - "All other things equal". It seems that, more often than not, a low SD and ES are more accurate - but not always. I guess it has to do with barrel harmonics and "barrel time" with the bullet exiting at the right moment. But until we can figure out how to get an ES of exactly zero, and velocity not vary with temperature, then we want the bullet to exit around the moment when the barrel is at the end of its "whip" where slight variations won't move the POI up or down on the target. Sometimes this takes an adjustment in charge, other times it takes a completely different powder and/or bullet.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I am just sick in general of so much crap on velocity, gel test, penetration test, denim test, Pig skin test, watermelon test, orange test, water jug test, " test test", bullet size, bullet weight, caliber wars, my gun is bigger than your gun, Why you should crap, why you should not crap, what cops carry, what the military carries, what Navy Seals carry, Internet experts, IDPA experts,certified instructor experts, 99% is redundant, Gun Rags have become a joke, mass advertising is a joke, most popular is a joke, polls are a joke.
Sometimes is is just nice to go out on a nice day and just shoot.

 

[Nature Boy]

I am just sick in general of so much crap.....Why you should crap, why you should not crap.....

The older I get, the more important this has become for me.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

The older I get, the more important this has become for me.

Oatmeal vs fiber supplements, what gives the most velocity? Any certified Instructors care to comment? What do Old Navy Seals use?

 

[Varminterror]

Oatmeal vs fiber supplements, what gives the most velocity?

Prune juice.

 

[Legionnaire]

That's funny!

 

[Toprudder]

Oatmeal vs fiber supplements, what gives the most velocity? Any certified Instructors care to comment? What do Old Navy Seals use?

I want to find out what lube the proctologist uses, and start using it for bullets. I can say that it definitely increases muzzle velocity.

 

[cheygriz]

By the same token, some folks are obsessed with accuracy.

Why is a rifle used to hunt elk and moose required to shoot 1/2 MOA, when 2 MOA is more than adequate?

I won't give up a couple of MOA to get an extra 150 FPS.

But I won't give up 200-300 FPS velocity to get an extra 3/4 MOA of accuracy.

 

[Nature Boy]

By the same token, some folks are obsessed with accuracy.

Why is a rifle used to hunt elk and moose required to shoot 1/2 MOA, when 2 MOA is more than adequate?

I won't give up a couple of MOA to get an extra 150 FPS.

But I won't give up 200-300 FPS velocity to get an extra 3/4 MOA of accuracy.

I’ll give you my answer to this. I squeeze as much accuracy as I can from my hunting rigs because:

1. I can. Developing loads taylored to individual rifles is one of the reason I reload.

2. The time I spend shooting a hunting rifle at the range adds to my proficiency with it and gives me an increase level of confidence that comes in handy at the moment of truth when buck fever kicks in.

 

[cheygriz]

I’ll give you my answer to this. I squeeze as much accuracy as I can from my hunting rigs because:

1. I can. Developing loads taylored to individual rifles is one of the reason I reload.

2. The time I spend shooting a hunting rifle at the range adds to my proficiency with it and gives me an increase level of confidence that comes in handy at the moment of truth when buck fever kicks in.

You would have gotten along qwell with one of my hunting buddies a few years ago.

He bought a high grade .340 Weatherby Magnum, even though there are no Elephant or Cape Buffalo in Wyoming.

He probably spent $300-$400 on components trying to work up a load.

One day he told me that he sold the Weatherby because it wasn't accurate. He said that the best 3 shot group he could get was 1.5 MOA, and that was unacceptable.

I guess you can't hit a moose or bull elk with that kind of accuracy!

 

[Nature Boy]

Best accuracy is a relative term. I’m perfectly happy with 5 shot / 1 to 1.5 MOA accuracy from my hunting rifles.

My sporterized 03A3 is an example.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/30-06-hunting-load-work-up-2-0.827446/

 

[Arkansas Paul]

It's all a balance.
I admit I chase groups and I am also aware that it is not necessary.
1.5" groups is more than adequate for hunting purposes, but I am in the Townsend Whelen camp. Only accurate rifles are interesting.

I don't get all hung up on velocity, because the kind of hunting I do, any published load is plenty. I hunt whitetails which are not particularly hard to kill and the farthest I've ever shot one is about 220 yards.
Any published .30-06 load will do the job nicely.

If I were a long range target shooter, or I hunted pronghorn in Wyoming where 500-600 yard shots were common, I would probably care a little more about velocity and getting the flattest shooting round I could.

For my purposes, a 165 grain SGK going 2500-2600 fps is fine.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I can understand in some regards why velocity is a concern. I load 10mm auto, and while accuracy is by far the more important factor to me, if it is occurring at 40 S&W velocities, I don't really care for it. I'll note it as a fun round to shoot and may make some easy plinking rounds in the future, but I want 10mm velocity from my 10mm guns. Otherwise why didn't I just get a 40 cal?

As Toprudder mentioned, I plan to start loading 460 S&W mag. I may not load to max velocities on that cartridge, but I'd like to keep it in 454 velocities at least, otherwise I really should have just got a smaller gun.