Help me pick out an AR for a buddy, $1500 including red dot

Status
Not open for further replies.
Z

z7

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
1,202
he is new to shooting sports and wants to get a rifle. he has several handguns and shoots pretty often. he wants to get into the rifle game. he shot my Daniel Defense V11 with an aimpoint and liked it, so now he wants something similar.

$1500 total cost, cheaper is also good.

He liked the long free float handguard and wants to put a fwd grip on it, mlock/keymod doesnt matter
he wants BUIS vs traditional fixed sights,
will use a nice red dot/holographic site (aimpoint/eotech/vortex Uh-1 etc.)

how do the PSA guns do? they can be had cheaply and come with the features/furniture that meet the requirements.

other contenders are savage MSR recon, S&W M&P, CMMG, Sig, . . . and the list goes on.
Free float handguard, 16" barrel, reliable, durable, light (easy handling)
 
PSA has some great stuff. As you'll see their stuff runs from good to really really good.

I'd suggest getting one of their blemished lowers with Magpul furniture then pick out the upper that he likes. He'll have money left over for a good optic and still some left over to customize it once he uses it some and sees what he likes and doesn't like.

S&W is also a good way to go. But why not start him on thinking of his AR as a Lego so he can get into the fun of modifying them?

I know I'm getting ready to get an order together to get the parts to do my upper build. If I didn't want to do the build myself, I'd go with one of the PSA deals they have going on 18", free float etc.
 
MistWolf said:
Colt Trooper, $750
Aimpoint T1 w/mount $710
Total $1560 plus tax, license and registration. Or you can go with an Aimpoint Carbine Optic w/mount for $320 less and buy a butt-load of ammo

You're welcome
Click to expand...

What trigger does the Colt have? I'm guessing a Mil Spec? And what barrel?

I'm curious as I know Colt has a good reputation but are you paying for the name, or are you getting something better for the extra money? If so, is it worth it? And I know we all have to answer that ourselves, hence my questions.
 
1. PSA Premium Upper (FN barreled 4150v chrome-moly), Premium BCG with mid-length gas with M-LOK rail or Magpul (depending on friends personal desires) - ~$350
2. PSA Magpul lower with Geissele SSA-E trigger - ~$320
3. Aimpoint Pro - $400 (I would personally have him consider a low power optic such as a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x20 Patrol with illuminated dot - $550)
4. American Eagle 1,000 rounds of 5.56 55gr FMJ - $220 at PSA after Federal $50 rebate.
5. Sling - $50
6. 10 Magazines - $80
7. FFL Transfer - $20

With Aimpoint - $1,440
With Leupold - $1,590 (forgot about mount, add $80)

Best deal out there in my opinion
 
Last edited:
He could buy a BCM for 1500, but that wouldn't leave anything for optics. I say get an LE6920, chop the front sight base and delta ring, throw a Troy rail on it, and call it a day (no special tools required). That would leave him about 600 for optics, slings, etc.

Or... get a BCM mid length upper with a KMR rail, and put it on an Anderson or PSA complete lower.
 
Hokie_PhD said:
What trigger does the Colt have? I'm guessing a Mil Spec? And what barrel?

I'm curious as I know Colt has a good reputation but are you paying for the name, or are you getting something better for the extra money? If so, is it worth it? And I know we all have to answer that ourselves, hence my questions.
Click to expand...

The Trooper does not have a milspec trigger. None of the non-nfa ARs do. The Trooper is basically a 6920 with a Centurion free float handguard and a shaved FSB. It has a factory semi-auto fire control group and Colt 16" chrome lined M4 barrel with carbine gas system. Colt barrels deliver surprising precision. You can expect 1-1.5 MOA with quality ammo

It's been my first person, hands on experience with Colts and PSA, Colt and talking to owners of other brands (including BCM) that Colts have better quality springs and better attention to detail. That's not to say Colt never makes a mistake or that other brands only make junk. I loved my PSA but I had to send the upper back to correct feed ramp problems (which PSA did cheerfully and promptly) and upgrade springs and buffers to get the same reliability I got from a 6920 right out of the box. When I swapped the 16" Colt barrel for a 14.5" Colt barrel pinned to 16" nothing else needed to be done. Note that once the problems with the PSA were identified and corrected, it gave me trouble free performance thereafter. The PSA was traded to a younger family member who has since put a couple thousand trouble free rounds through it himself. But there were problems which added cost to the rifle in time, ammo and frustration, to find, fix and verify the problems were solved.

The Colt has been trouble free right out of the box. All I did to it before shooting is clean the preservative and lube it. It has been run hard, both unsuppressed and suppressed. Yes, the Colt is worth it and the Trooper is an amazing bargain, especially with AR prices being what they are today
 
MistWolf said:
The Trooper does not have a milspec trigger. None of the non-nfa ARs do. The Trooper is basically a 6920 with a Centurion free float handguard and a shaved FSB. It has a factory semi-auto fire control group and Colt 16" chrome lined M4 barrel with carbine gas system. Colt barrels deliver surprising precision. You can expect 1-1.5 MOA with quality ammo

It's been my first person, hands on experience with Colts and PSA, Colt and talking to owners of other brands (including BCM) that Colts have better quality springs and better attention to detail. That's not to say Colt never makes a mistake or that other brands only make junk. I loved my PSA but I had to send the upper back to correct feed ramp problems (which PSA did cheerfully and promptly) and upgrade springs and buffers to get the same reliability I got from a 6920 right out of the box. When I swapped the 16" Colt barrel for a 14.5" Colt barrel pinned to 16" nothing else needed to be done. Note that once the problems with the PSA were identified and corrected, it gave me trouble free performance thereafter. The PSA was traded to a younger family member who has since put a couple thousand trouble free rounds through it himself. But there were problems which added cost to the rifle in time, ammo and frustration, to find, fix and verify the problems were solved.

The Colt has been trouble free right out of the box. All I did to it before shooting is clean the preservative and lube it. It has been run hard, both unsuppressed and suppressed. Yes, the Colt is worth it and the Trooper is an amazing bargain, especially with AR prices being what they are today
Click to expand...

@MistWolf Which PSA did you buy PTAC, Freedom or Premium line? That makes a difference, I wouldn't consider their PTAC or Freedom line, but their Premium line has great stats. It uses an FN barrel which is the same make as Colt IIRC.
 
<*(((>< said:
@MistWolf Which PSA did you buy PTAC, Freedom or Premium line? That makes a difference, I wouldn't consider their PTAC or Freedom line, but their Premium line has great stats. It uses an FN barrel which is the same make as Colt IIRC.
Click to expand...

The thing about their premium line is that it's only marginally cheaper than Colt, and Colt is still closer to full milspec, whereas PSA cuts a few corners in that regard. With Colt, you get milspec parts wherever legal (from the same bins that contract rifles are built from), and the SA parts are up to the same quality standards.
 
MistWolf said:
Colt Trooper, $750
Aimpoint T1 w/mount $710
Total $1560 plus tax, license and registration. Or you can go with an Aimpoint Carbine Optic w/mount for $320 less and buy a butt-load of ammo

You're welcome
Click to expand...

This! Or he could get a Colt oem without the fsp and put on his rail and stock of choice. Aimpoint Pro or trijicon MRO and have money left over for ammo or a better trigger. Larue MBT is a great value for 125 if he prefers 2 stage. Velocity trigger is about same price for a really good drop in single stage
 
thanks for the feedback, I think he will be pleased to hear that the rifle is cheaper than planned, I will show him some options and go from there

I hand load, he doesn't. What is your favorite source for bulk .223 ammo. (anything but Independence brand due to some issues we have seen)
 
<*(((>< said:
@MistWolf Which PSA did you buy PTAC, Freedom or Premium line? That makes a difference, I wouldn't consider their PTAC or Freedom line, but their Premium line has great stats. It uses an FN barrel which is the same make as Colt IIRC.
Click to expand...
I bought a PSA kit before they had PTAC, Freedom & Premium lines. The barrel on mine was a 16" stainless government profile middy made by Wilson. Colt doesn't use FN barrels. Colt makes their own.

The majority of "other brand" ARs can be made to be reliable and durable, but the buyer has to know what to look for, what to upgrade and with which parts. For example, one of the most common problems with off brand ARs is extraction, but most shooters don't know how to diagnose the problem properly. When it's finally realized that the problem is a bad extraction spring, an inferior quality spring is usually installed and the problem soon returns
 
<*(((>< said:
@MistWolf Which PSA did you buy PTAC, Freedom or Premium line? That makes a difference, I wouldn't consider their PTAC or Freedom line, but their Premium line has great stats. It uses an FN barrel which is the same make as Colt IIRC.
Click to expand...


I have nothing against PSA and own one, but why get even a PSA premium when the price is as close as they are right now. They are both fn barrels but not too the same specs. The Colt gas port on the barrel is better specd as well as the BCG and the lower components will all be true milspec. It will also come with the correct H buffer and not a carbine buffer. Resale value will be more than double if he would ever want to sell it
 
For ammo I think wolf gold is a good value. It's the brass cased stuff. Can find for under $300/1000. I have never had an issue with it. Sgammo is a good site for ammo. AIM surplus has sales on the wolf gold frequently
 
MistWolf said:
I bought a PSA kit before they had PTAC, Freedom & Premium lines. The barrel on mine was a 16" stainless government profile middy made by Wilson. Colt doesn't use FN barrels. Colt makes their own.

The majority of "other brand" ARs can be made to be reliable and durable, but the buyer has to know what to look for, what to upgrade and with which parts. For example, one of the most common problems with off brand ARs is extraction, but most shooters don't know how to diagnose the problem properly. When it's finally realized that the problem is a bad extraction spring, an inferior quality spring is usually installed and the problem soon returns
Click to expand...

I thought I had heard that FN made Colt barrels. The only reason I would buy a Colt these days would be for resale value however. But to each his own.

I don't think they are a bad carbine, I just think they have rested on their laurels and the whole idea of milspec is a base standard that nearly everyone has moved passed.

Personally, I would look at specifications rather than brand alone. For a do all first AR15 I would prefer 1:8 twist, mid-length gas, and a better trigger, none of that is mil-spec but in my opinion are improvements.

That LaRue kit above is a great deal, I have their trigger one of my ARs and it's sweet.
 
Last edited:
<*(((>< said:
...the whole idea of milspec is a base standard that nearly everyone has moved passed.
Click to expand...

Not even close. There are only a handful of companies doing full milspec, and Colt is by far the cheapest in that category. I don't understand the point of doing fancy coatings and stuff when you can't even get milspec right. Well, I do, it's marketing, but it still doesn't make good sense. Milspec is the absolute minimum standard to produce a consistently reliable rifle. It's just basic quality control standards for the platform.
 
z7 said:
I hand load, he doesn't. What is your favorite source for bulk .223 ammo. (anything but Independence brand due to some issues we have seen)
Click to expand...
Check out freedommunitions.com, factory reloads for .29¢ / rd, if you catch a free shipping deal.
 
You should look at CBC Industries. They make some nice rifle. I have used their upper on four different builds.
https://www.cbcindustries.com/collections/rifles
I am always reading where people are saying how Colt builds better ARs. But other then stating that they use a heavy buffer and true milspec parts , they really don't say why or what makes them better. And doesn't milspec stand for, Good enough for Government use?
Now I do know that Colt inspects all parts, but other companies like Spikes, LaRue and others do the same.
One of the things you pay for on upper end ARs is the quality of the finish.
The things I have found on ARs that I like best is a Nitrited barrel, mid length gas system, 1/8 twist and a 223 Wylde chamber.
 
grampajack said:
Not even close. There are only a handful of companies doing full milspec, and Colt is by far the cheapest in that category. I don't understand the point of doing fancy coatings and stuff when you can't even get milspec right. Well, I do, it's marketing, but it still doesn't make good sense. Milspec is the absolute minimum standard to produce a consistently reliable rifle. It's just basic quality control standards for the platform.
Click to expand...

Well we'll have to agree to disagree at the necessity of an AR15 being mil-spec. Fancy coatings are no more a marketing term then milspec is, you said it yourself mil-spec is a minimum standard. Great so if I buy a Colt I'm getting the minimum standard that meets the military, whom is consistently behind today's commercial AR15 market. Just this last year the military adopted the "non-milspec" PMAG, or talks of them including the "non-milspec" keymod or m-lok. The military is also rumored to be considering adjustable gas blocks for use with suppressors. But only the Colt version of all those standards will be milspec.

Right now the military is talking about creating the M4A1+ which will include several improvements that have been used in "non-milspec" commercial AR15's for the past decade. So I guess all the Colt milspec fans won't be milspec anymore until they upgrade to the new milspec. Tough work keeping up with all those changes to be considered in compliance with milspec.

Milspec is specifications, measurements, materials list to make the rifle, it's not some miracle label that everyone makes it out to be.

I'm guessing the only 1911 worth having is a Colt as well?
 
<*(((>< said:
I thought I had heard that FN made Colt barrels. The only reason I would buy a Colt these days would be for resale value however. But to each his own.

I don't think they are a bad carbine, I just think they have rested on their laurels and the whole idea of milspec is a base standard that nearly everyone has moved passed.

Personally, I would look at specifications rather than brand alone. For a do all first AR15 I would prefer 1:8 twist, mid-length gas, and a better trigger, none of that is mil-spec but in my opinion are improvements.

That LaRue kit above is a great deal, I have their trigger one of my ARs and it's sweet.
Click to expand...
I have come to my conclusion about Colt ARs not because of the brand, but because how they shoot, tuning ARs to shoot and taking various ARs apart and putting them back together.

Other than cosmetic changes, such as barrel profile, coatings and furniture, there isn't much than can be done to the Colt AR to improve it. Better triggers are nice, but whether or not they are improvements is a matter of opinion and I'd rather buy an AR with a standard trigger and decide for myself if I want to replace it and with what.


Barrel twist is a matter of preference as well. I don't think there is enough difference in performance between a 1:7 and a 1:8 to be bothered with.

Colt makes their own barrels using the button forged method. Diemaco (Colt Cananda) uses cold forging. Tests by Molon, an individual who uses very precise methods to test precision of rifles, have shown Colt AR barrels deliver impressive precision, especially for barrels that are chrome lined. Molon tests precision by firing 3 ten shot groups.

Bottom line, Colt is getting it right
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: RPZ
Just an observation. The reason why Colt is the benchmark for mid priced ARs is what comes standard; things like chrome lined barrel, properly staked gas tube on the carrier, magnetic particle inspection, shot peened bolt, barrels coated before gas block/sight added etc. As stated by others, it is not that Colt never has any lemons, but QC is usually pretty good.
 
<*(((>< said:
Well we'll have to agree to disagree at the necessity of an AR15 being mil-spec. Fancy coatings are no more a marketing term then milspec is, you said it yourself mil-spec is a minimum standard. Great so if I buy a Colt I'm getting the minimum standard that meets the military, whom is consistently behind today's commercial AR15 market. Just this last year the military adopted the "non-milspec" PMAG, or talks of them including the "non-milspec" keymod or m-lok. The military is also rumored to be considering adjustable gas blocks for use with suppressors. But only the Colt version of all those standards will be milspec.

Right now the military is talking about creating the M4A1+ which will include several improvements that have been used in "non-milspec" commercial AR15's for the past decade. So I guess all the Colt milspec fans won't be milspec anymore until they upgrade to the new milspec. Tough work keeping up with all those changes to be considered in compliance with milspec.

Milspec is specifications, measurements, materials list to make the rifle, it's not some miracle label that everyone makes it out to be.

I'm guessing the only 1911 worth having is a Colt as well?
Click to expand...
While mil spec is a "minimum standard", the bar is still set pretty high. Remember that when dot gov awards a contract there is an expectation that the firearms, be it rifle or pistol, will often be used in the worst conditions for prolonged periods of time.

Any rifle, in this case, that might be touted as "better than that", needs to prove itself beyond what the manufacturer claims on paper. Whether it is reliability, durability, corrosion resistance et al.

Historically, most mil spec weapons have performed according to needs provided they have been properly maintained.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

G
  • Locked
AR-15 Red Dot
Replies
16
Views
876
kfgk14
K
S
  • Locked
AR scopes and red dots
Replies
12
Views
846
gotigers
G
D
  • Locked
Critique my AR-15 plan
Replies
15
Views
804
Zak Smith
Zak Smith
U
  • Locked
Assistance picking out parts for ar15
Replies
10
Views
1K
Sheepdog1968
S
Acera
  • Locked
Red Dot help needed.
Replies
24
Views
3K
Acera
Acera
Back
Top