DA/SA and "Learning Different Triggers"

If a glock has "2 pulls", the first shot out of the holster and from reset... I think a beretta had 3?

There is a difference between the reset position and "I ran to the next box to shoot" SA.

I generally shoot revolvers so no dog in the fight but DA/SA is more complex and there's a reason you don't see them in the winner's circle at major matches.

HB

^I mean CZ's are represented decently well but nothing in comparison to other guns. Especially in service pistol classes.

I don't own any striker fired guns anymore and really don't like them for carry... But you can't deny striker fired guns are vastly more popular for gamer guns.

HB

HB said:

But you can't deny striker fired guns are vastly more popular for gamer guns.

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Not within the last few years. DA/SA has become the dominate type you see in "stock" type division like production - largely due to Ben Steoger I'd wager. He seems to win every Production nationals originally with a Beretta 92 and now with a Tanfoglio. I say that as someone who when they shoot production does so with an M&P (I'm used to it).

That said - I'd say that the reason they've gotten popular is because of the "SA" part of the equation and the "DA" is just something they live with. They take the aggravating first shot simply because for the rest of the course of fire having a single action trigger pull is so nice. If the rules allowed it you'd see a near complete switch to straight up single action guns, much like you see in other divisions.

^Interesting.

I guess I need to shoot bigger matches or Missouri needs to keep up with the times.

The USPSA page on the NRA site said 33% of last year's nationals shooters a used CZ in production. I guess by volume striker fired is still more popular but likely because they are more popular currently as a whole.

That being said, I don't think I'd use one and have eyeballed the m&p line actually.

Everything I have said on the matter, I based on observations from the military, not competition or any specific sponsored competitor. The people winning in those matches can outshoot most any military personnel or police officer, regardless of weapon type.

You hit the nail on the head of why we teach our cadets NOT to shoot off the reset with our issued M&P's. If you work with large groups of non gun people (ie your average 100 cadet police academy class), you will see people shank the initial round of on a striker fired pistol just as often as you do with a DA/SA gun. They then suddenly start shooting lights out, as they operate off the reset. Why? There's a laundry list of reasons, and I have had several cadets almost fail out until I got them to stop using the reset.

Also before anyone thinks I'm too crazy, both the Rogers School and Mid South teach the same concept. The trigger goes all the way forward but contact is maintained and then it is smoothly stroked reward again. What happens under actual real stress is that people stroke the trigger a lot shorter, but not to the point of short stroking the trigger. Short stroking the trigger is an issue which we have had 2 OIS that this factored in, no good guys hurt, but it sure scared one officer that his gun "broke" when it was in fact his trigger finger. Since we implemented not teaching reset we haven't had any issues with it in training, or in the field to my knowledge.

Can you do perfectly good work with the trigger reset, absolutely. However it is as mentioned a different trigger position then the normal full forward trigger position.

-Jenrick

9mmepiphany said:

The only nod he really has to them is to start the trigger press, from the holster, before you gun reaches extension. That isn't very new, because Bruce Gray and Ernest Langdon have been teaching the same thing for years

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This thread needs a video

HB said:

I generally shoot revolvers so no dog in the fight but DA/SA is more complex and there's a reason you don't see them in the winner's circle at major matches.
HB

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What? In USPSA, the Production division sees more winners with DA/SA guns (usually CZ's and Tanfoglios) than striker-fired guns over the last 5 years.

HB said:

The USPSA page on the NRA site said 33% of last year's nationals shooters a used CZ in production. .

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That number doesn't include the Tanfoglios which are often called CZ clones, but are no such thing these days.

Ben Stoeger won a bunch of consecutive national USPSA production titles with a Tanfo. Last year, he finally got beat... by another guy with a Tanfo'.

^I corrected myself in my follow up post. I guess I do not frequent big enough matches to see this trend. I'll stick to what I got until I feel my scores are limited more by my gun than my performance.

HB

I noticed that as I read through the thread.

And, to be sure, there are some Glock shooters that still end up high on the leaderboards. It's not the "new hotness," but still a gun you can absolutely win with. If you like it, no reason to change.

As a guy who competed hard with both, I understand the appeal of both, but I won't be going back to striker.

I went from M&P to Tanfo. The DA pull is easy to thoroughly train up in dryfire. From my very first live fire day with the Tanfo onward, after a week of dryfire leading up, the DA pull was never much of an issue for me since I could cover it so well in dryfire.

Unexpectedly, it took longer for me to get the single action pull under control coming from a striker gun. "Prep" levels of pull weight on the M&P were "bang" levels of pull weight on the Tanfo. This lead to several sessions of fairly poor accuracy at speed, since I was breaking a lot of those shots just a hair earlier than I wanted to, until my brain was retrained on the lighter trigger.

So, my opinion, it can take a little more effort to learn DA/SA, yes, because of the two different pulls. Is it insurmountable, no. It just isn't that hard. If you aren't willing to train enough to become moderately proficient with DA/SA, you aren't going to be very good with a striker either.

HB said:

The USPSA page on the NRA site said 33% of last year's nationals shooters a used CZ in production. I guess by volume striker fired is still more popular but likely because they are more popular currently as a whole.

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Well, think of it this way.... if you walked into your LGS and took a look in the counter, what percent of the guns do you suppose would be CZs? Unless you happen to find a very odd gun store, my guess would be 0%-5%.

So, the fact that 33% of top shooters are using them means that at that level of shooting, they are vastly over represented in comparison to their normal market share. One might even want to ask what they know that everyone else doesn't. Shhh... It's a secret.

Mostly they know that a heavy steel frame makes guns easier to shoot fast with good accuracy, IMO. Plastic guns have less mass, and the shooter has to do more work to hold them "flat."

The nicer trigger on 95+% of shots taken is just a bonus!

Jenrick said:

You hit the nail on the head of why we teach our cadets NOT to shoot off the reset with our issued M&P's. If you work with large groups of non gun people (ie your average 100 cadet police academy class), you will see people shank the initial round of on a striker fired pistol just as often as you do with a DA/SA gun. They then suddenly start shooting lights out, as they operate off the reset. Why? There's a laundry list of reasons, and I have had several cadets almost fail out until I got them to stop using the reset.

Also before anyone thinks I'm too crazy, both the Rogers School and Mid South teach the same concept. The trigger goes all the way forward but contact is maintained and then it is smoothly stroked reward again. What happens under actual real stress is that people stroke the trigger a lot shorter, but not to the point of short stroking the trigger. Short stroking the trigger is an issue which we have had 2 OIS that this factored in, no good guys hurt, but it sure scared one officer that his gun "broke" when it was in fact his trigger finger. Since we implemented not teaching reset we haven't had any issues with it in training, or in the field to my knowledge.

Can you do perfectly good work with the trigger reset, absolutely. However it is as mentioned a different trigger position then the normal full forward trigger position.

-Jenrick

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At the risk of total thread drift, I just wanted to acknowledge Jenrick's post and say that I completely agree with him. We also issue M&Ps; the older versions with the mushy, indistinct reset and later models with better triggers. Chasing the reset works for simple precision shooting on the static range, but not so much during speed drills and shooting on the move. We've also noted noted that chasing the reset will incur short-stroking and "no bang" under stress ...

And absolutely, folks tend to shank the first round on a striker-fired pistol at least as much as with a TDA. In fact, knowing one has the TDA long first pull, at least during quals, folks tended to be more precise and careful ... with the M&Ps, seems more folks get "surprised" when they break the first shot prior to getting sights on POA or otherwise flinch, push or pull that first shot.

This article from Darryl Bolke is an interesting look at the different options in triggers for pistols.

https://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

I have absolutely no use for DA/SA or DAO semi-auto handguns, as I've never seen one that didn't have [to me] a simply wretched trigger pull.

All of my carry semi-autos are either "safe action" (Glock) or single action (M1911, Browning Hi Power).

To me, "You can learn to do x" doesn't equate to "You OUGHT to learn to do x".

DA/SA and DAO hammer fired guns offer me absolutely nothing of any benefit compared to a Glock with a 3.5lb. Ghost connector or an M1911 with a 4lb. trigger job.

Deanimator said:

DA/SA and DAO hammer fired guns offer me absolutely nothing of any benefit compared to a Glock with a 3.5lb. Ghost connector or an M1911 with a 4lb. trigger job.

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Absolutely nothing? Are you sure about that?

A lot of the old school guys have the ingrained habit of placing their thumb on the back of the hammer as they holster up. A nifty little helper with a DA gun.. not so useful with a Glock. So, there is at least one benefit on the table.

ClickClickD'oh said:

Absolutely nothing? Are you sure about that?

A lot of the old school guys have the ingrained habit of placing their thumb on the back of the hammer as they holster up.

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I also do that.

A nifty little helper with a DA gun.. not so useful with a Glock. So, there is at least one benefit on the table.

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That option is now available. Though I still like seeing a hammer.

https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com/products/striker-control-device

That's actually pretty cool. I hadn't seen that before.

It's discussions like this one which serve as a reminder of how much I miss the days when a handgunner considered it normal to be able to competently handle, manipulate and shoot a DA revolver, a SA revolver and a SA pistol (aka:1911 or Ruger Standard).

The advent of the variable DAO-ish plastic pistols has, in a way, lowered the bar for acquiring a good foundation handgunning skillset.

For example, As a long time 1911, SA & DA revolver shooter, who was carrying a service revolver, I was less than enthusiastic when I had to turn in my revolver for a then-new S&W 5903 (alloy framed, traditional double action, meaning DA & SA function). As a long time 1911 and DA revolver shooter, though, it was a pretty easy acclimatization to using DA for the initial shot, and SA for subsequent shots (unless decocked back into DA). Just a new way to use existing trigger control skills and experience.

Fast forward about 27 years later, 26 of those years having served as a LE firearms instructor, and my retirement CCW handguns are comprised of a smattering of Glocks, M&P's, SW99's, S&W 3rd gen pistols (TDA), 1911's ... and DA/DAO revolvers and a couple of Ruger LCP's. They each feel familiar and comfortable in my hands, and they've all been used for training, quals, casual drills, etc.

My "favorite" triggers will remain both a 1911 and DA revolvers (tied for first, so to speak), followed by the TDA (DA/SA, if you'd rather, which includes a couple of my SW99's), followed by the "striker-fired" DAO-ish.

One thing that seems to have remained consistent over the years that I've served as a firearms instructor is that handgunners who are well versed and skilled with DA revolvers, seem to be able to shoot other handguns, of other designs, more easily than folks who learned their handgun skills on just plastic pistols.