Why it's time to stop recommending 308Win, tips for new "long range" shooters.

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I've never felt handicapped by having a 6.5x55 instead of a 6.5 Creedmoor.

You would IF you were trying to feed it VLD 140grn bullets AND stuff it in a mag the size of an AICS or PMAG LR/SR..............

6.5 x 55 case length = 2.165"
6.5C case length = 1.920

Right off the bat that's .24" in bullet seating depth in favor of the 6.5C.

Chuck
 
There is simply no advantage to having a ballistically superior cartridge for LEARNING long distance. It just increases the size of the range you need to have access to in order to learn. Shooters would be well served to spend lots of time on a .22 trainer followed by a .223. Quantity of practice matters, and at 7c per round for the .22 and about 25-30c/reload for the .223 with varmint bullets (high BCs are NOT your friend here but accuracy is) you can get practice for between a third and a twentieth of what it costs to shoot a "real" long range rifle.

When it comes to shooting competition, or hunting, or even just trying to achieve personal goals on paper (hits at a mile or whatever), THEN it makes sense to look at higher powered cartridges, and the 6-7mm range comes into its own.
 
Good thread. I think it's funny how the 6.5mm is the rage these days like it's something new. Considering many of the popular hunting and military cartridges were 6.5mm over 100 years ago. Whats new is old.:thumbup:
 
That's the way I feel about my .260 Remingtons.
There is absolutely nothing the latest 6.5mm can do that cannot be done with a 260 and other case choices.
Also, the 260 geometry and shoulder angle is pretty good for easy feeding and it would be an advantage with auto-loaders and machine guns should that be required.
Like @cdb1 said, of course he can use a 6.5 Swiss if that chamber and rifle is accurate for him. The case and rifle choice doesn't matter because we are not launching
the rifles nor cases but the bullets.
 
Don't get me wrong guys, I like the 6mm and 6.5mm bores myself and I think these departments provide amazing bullets for target work and some hunting too but I also
think we have to be pragmatic and careful with what the sports magazines, internet,and marketing guys are trying to sell us.

The problem with the Internet and youtube calibers and fashions is that we loose a bit sight of what is important here.

The most important component often overlooked and rarely discussed is getting professional training and half of the work is done outside the range studying the ballistics,
loads, calculations, and then later interpreting the results. Then having access to a good location or installations where one can practice a lot like Llama mentioned.
Having training and perhaps some one on one coaching from a professional is probably the most important investment the average shooter will ever made.

You can apply ballistics calculations and principals to whatever you have to work with and regardless of the choice, consistency is more important than power, reach or
whatever the marketing and sales folks and enthusiasts are trying to sell us.

The 223 loaded with 70-90gr VLD bullets is a great way to train long range on a very reasonable budget. The black-hills 77gr TMK has a transonic range past 1000 yards
in most locations and conditions so this is more than plenty to learn in pretty challenging distances. Even shot from a compact 16" AR will stay supersonic to 1000 yards
with 10.7 mils that is amazing for such small round.

But, like I said, the 7mm-08 for the same or even less cost than the latest 6.5mm fashion will leave any of those 6.5mm behind in terms of performance and reach.
For fans of hornady even this mid budget 7mm bullet is launched by the 7mm/08 at 2,800fps from a 24" barrel...

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/7mm-284-162-gr-eld-match#!/

For those who own a 308, don't worry because this is an amazingly versatile round that can extend the average 800yards effective range to 1300 yards w/o much trouble if one doesn't
mind paying a bit more for high end bullets.

In fact a load that can be shot from AI magazines and many 308 gas guns at a max COAL of 2.8030 can achieve similar trajectories than the 6.5 but shooting from a
20-21" compact rifle vs a longer 24" 6.5mm barrels. Not only the trajectories will be nice but it will put more energy and momentum on the targets.

Of course one needs to spend more than the average Sierra Match King.

Beware of the salesman and study the science of ballistics. In the end all starts and ends with a good bullet choice for the work required, the rest is just part of whatever
the delivery recipe.
 
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One cartridge that doesnt get the respect it deserves for long range shooting is the plain 'ol .243 Winchester. Which is a 6mm. We get caught up in more exotic cartridges, but the .243 can hold it's own.

A few of the guys I regularly shoot long range with use the .243. And they hold their own against anybody else at the range.



FWIW: I have almost zero interest in hunting. I love to read about, and learn about long range rifle shooting. But, every thread turns into a hunting thread.

A certain unnamed idiot that shall remain my brother uses a .243 Win as a coyote cartridge with good effect. The "longest" (successful) shot I ever took was right at 500 meters with a .303 Brit in a Lee Enfield rifle. However I was told then it was more luck that skill. What Gramps could do at long range with his old Garand was nothing short of magic. It all comes back to the farm country standard, it ain't the machine it's the operator.
 
You would IF you were trying to feed it VLD 140grn bullets AND stuff it in a mag the size of an AICS or PMAG LR/SR..............

6.5 x 55 case length = 2.165"
6.5C case length = 1.920

Right off the bat that's .24" in bullet seating depth in favor of the 6.5C.

Chuck

Short action vs long action. Your post doesn't make sense.
 
There is absolutely nothing the latest 6.5mm can do that cannot be done with a 260 and other case choices.
Also, the 260 geometry and shoulder angle is pretty good for easy feeding and it would be an advantage with auto-loaders and machine guns should that be required.
Like @cdb1 said, of course he can use a 6.5 Swiss if that chamber and rifle is accurate for him. The case and rifle choice doesn't matter because we are not launching
the rifles nor cases but the bullets.

6.5 Swiss?
 
Why would you say that?

I'm having great success with the 180g SMK out to 1,000 yards

Of course they are nice bullets ... we were talking about improving traditional trajectories and long range performance so
I was saying in order to reach 1300yards-1500yards supersonic with the 308. One cannot do that with the traditional match bullets.
Berger 185gr Juggernout can push 1100-1200 at best.
 
View attachment 763726

View attachment 763727

Barrel is a Bartlein 1:10 MTU profile 26"

Please note: that load is almost 2g over Sierra published max. Do not assume it is safe in your rifle. Always work up and observe for signs of excess pressure.

12 SD!!... very very good! ... that is not going to fail you when scoring on heavy gates.

When I made the comment above I had the flat line 160 and 180gr in mind but those are 1.3 to 1.4 dollars each. ..ouch!!! ...unless one competes at the high level, I see no point.

The nice thing about the 308 with the 160gr FL is that it still feeds great from AI and also gas guns like the AR. 10.5 mils at 1,200 yards is pretty impressive for these bullets and one
more reason why the 308 is still going strong regardless of what the 6.5mm Internet Sales & Marketing folks say.

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for any shooter, new to guns or just new to long range, i would always recommend a 6.5CM over 308 except for 2 specific exceptions:
1. they get duty ammo in 308 from their dept (i.e. they are LEO or mil sniper that uses a 308 for their duty gun and the gov gives them free ammo)
2. they are specifically interested in palma or F-TR

6.5cm is better to learn on than 308win

i disagree with the statement that a lot of crap 2moa ammo is better to learn on
i disagree with the statement that a lot of time needs to be spent at short ranges before shooting 1000 yards.

i disagree that 243win, 260rem, 6.5swede etc are just as good.

i disagree with the statement that 12 SD is very very good. 1-3 SD is very very good. 5-8 SD is acceptable
 
No one shoot 7.62x39 long range? If you hit the target at 1000 yds with x39, everyone bow to you.:)

I consider 300 yards "long range" with my 7.62x39, and I think it would surprise people what that round is capable of at that distance in a good bolt gun.
 
i disagree with the statement that a lot of time needs to be spent at short ranges before shooting 1000 yards.
I disagree with a lot of things across this entire thread...as well a some of the other things in this quote...but this probably the most...Maybe...depends what you say... because there are methods I use and are aware of that do require spending more time at long range than short...but because this thread...at least originally was oriented towards newbies...

I am very interested to know how you obtain your dope. How do YOU get around to shooting 1000y?
 
I am very interested to know how you obtain your dope. How do YOU get around to shooting 1000y?

competent instruction helps. but ballistic calculators are pretty good these days. as long as you have a 100 yard zero and know your bullet and MV, you can get on target at 1000 pretty dang fast. (unless you live somewhere with switchy winds and are shooting a 308 haha)

to be perfectly honest, it's been years since i collected "data" to determine dope. that's probably a whole nother thread.

I'm not recommending everyone go from 100 to 1000 yards right away. just that you don't have to spend days or hundreds of rounds at short ranges before moving back to long. my experience taking new shooters to the range and teaching classes is consistent over many years that i can let them shoot my gun and give them a wind call and they will instantly hit targets at 1000+. in fact, that's normally what i do, since they usually don't own their own stuff yet and i'm helping them pick out what they want. they tend to enjoy hitting long range targets the most.
 
For shooting enthusiasts (by this I mean people shooting for enjoyment, not survival) interested in a centerfire bolt-gun for casual target and any kind distance work there is no reason to choose 308 Win.
This was the original statement, the one I disagreed with. Way to broad a blanket statement.

The .308 still has a lot going for it, and shooting enthusiasts can certainly do well with it and get a great deal of enjoyment out of it.

Is it being suggested for competing at the highest level where any caliber can be used these days? Not much, but that doesn't lead to to original conclusion by the OP. As stated I can't agree with it.

Perhaps the OP should have stated his opposition differently.
 
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