Why the 6.5 Creedmoor and not the 30 tc?

[444]

From American Rifleman :


"During the matches, Demille formulated a list of requirements for his ideal High Power competition cartridge:

• Be magazine-length for use during the rapid-fire string in competition.
• Have significantly less recoil than the .308 Win. to enhance performance during rapid-fire strings, and for general shooter comfort.
• Shoot flat with accurate, high-ballistic-coefficient bullets.
• Promote good barrel life.
• Use readily available components, including powder, so that it can be easily replicated.
• Include the reloading recipe and data on the packaging of production loads.
• Be manufactured in sufficient quantity to meet demand."

 

[Varminterror]

I don't think those things helped to launch it but they are certainly helping it gain momentum.

My original statement said what I meant, but it also implied something I did not.

I MEANT - the popularity of the Creedmoors has nothing to do with the particular brands of rifles or ammo available, as match ammo and rifles do not alone sell popularity. The OP had posited the question - what if the creed were available in different models... the specific brands/models had nothing to do with the growth. One of my points in my above post, however, does specifically reflect the fact the massive market support has helped launch the creedmoors. The rifles and ammo are available, so people will buy them if they want them.

 

[Walkalong]

consistency in velocity and accuracy over hundreds or thousands of rounds. "inherent accuracy" of cartridges has been fiercely debated here over the past decade. lots of people will show some 5 round one hole groups from crazy cartridges like 7,62x39 to prove that anything can be accurate... but for some mysterious reason, the cartridges that always seem to win match after match after match have a few things in common.

Exactly. The match winning calibers do it time and time again, consistency wins matches.

 

[Newtosavage]

The fact luddites don't care for the 6 & 6.5, favoring the older cartridges somewhat like them...

ots of people will show some 5 round one hole groups from crazy cartridges like 7,62x39 to prove that anything can be accurate...

Why could I feel a finger pointing at me when I read those statements? LOL

I wanted to get on the 6.5 CM bandwagon. Haven't found a reason to yet though.

And a good group from a 7.62x39 crazy? I think not.

Sometimes us gun enthusiasts can have blinders on, in both directions.

I'll add that if even the fancy-schmancy 6.5 CM had first been chambered in an AK platform, nobody would think much of it's accuracy either.

 

[taliv]

i wasn't thinking of anyone in particular. several have done it. but the point is there's a big difference between one good group and a long history of winning benchrest matches.

 

[bme27]

So this is probably another dumb question to ask, but other than following what the winners of matches are using, how can you tell what an inherently accurate cartridge would be? How would one be able to say this cartridge will be consistently more accurate than this one?

 

[bme27]

I also see how the Creedmoor has clear advantages over the 260 with seating depth and magazine problems, and I am assuming that any seating problems the 308 win has is not resolved by the 30tc case as 30 cal bullets are more “football” shaped compared to the long 6.5’s

 

[LoonWulf]

Honestly unless you very good, and shooting benchrest, or extreme long range, my belief is that there isnt a huge advantage in cartridge design. Having a well built rifle and ammo is more important to intrinsic accuracy.

This is just what i understand from what ive been told, and read. Honestly im not nearly a good enough shot with any of my rifles for it to matter to me. The theory is the short fat cartridges are generally considered more accurate, as are those with a reasonably long neck. The short fat powder column is supposed to be more efficient and consistent. The longer, but not too long, neck promotes better bullet bore alignment.

Actually the shorter 30tc does mitigate the magazine constraints with realy long .308 projectiles to a degree.
Again its not a bad design (take a look at the very similar 300 savage from the....20s?), but its capacity is just too low to drive the really heavy .30s fast enough to compete with the larger and established cartridges.

Actually the 30tc might be at its very best with the 155 palmas they tend to have unusually high bcs for 150 class bullets.

 

[VoodooMountain]

So this is probably another dumb question to ask, but other than following what the winners of matches are using, how can you tell what an inherently accurate cartridge would be? How would one be able to say this cartridge will be consistently more accurate than this one?

Those of us mere mortals wouldn’t ever be able to tell.

308 and most of it’s derivatives, 22-250, and the ppc cartridges all come to mind when someone says inherently accurate.

I’ve heard theories about primer ignition (ppc cartridges), length of neck, shoulder angle, and bore to shoulder ratio.

For the average person a low recoiling rifle with good ammo that can consistently shoot .75-1 moa is as good as it gets because that’s about as good as the average shooter.

 

[Walkalong]

Honestly unless you very good, and shooting benchrest, or extreme long range, my belief is that there isnt a huge advantage in cartridge design. Having a well built rifle and ammo is more important to intrinsic accuracy.

A lot can be said for that.

 

[Varminterror]

So this is probably another dumb question to ask, but other than following what the winners of matches are using, how can you tell what an inherently accurate cartridge would be? How would one be able to say this cartridge will be consistently more accurate than this one?

For me, the litmus test for inherent potential for precision is revealed in load development. I've never met a cartridge I thought was hard to load, but I've certainly met cartridges which are easy to mess up, AND cartridges which seem like you couldn't trip up if you tried.

I remember when I first started loading .300wm, I spent a lot of time, money, and energy finding a couple particular combinations which didn't have some tell-tale sign of one or another issue. I solicited advice and magic loads from experienced guys, read every data book for insights, and loaded bed after bed of test batches. I ended up with incredibly consistent ammo, but I had to work out all of the kinks to find the sweet spots.

Comparatively, when I first started loading 6 Dasher, life was incredibly boring... it just wants to shoot tiny groups, seemingly no matter what I fed it. I'm fairly certain you couldn't sprinkle Varget into a Dasher case from a salt shaker, then seat a random dozen of the 100-105grn bullets left over from someone else's load work up, then go shoot a sub-MOA 12 shot group...

So THAT is largely my gauge for what makes an inherently precise cartridge - how easy it is to find a broad spectrum of happy loads with different bullets.

 

[wahsben]

I think he and the rest of us are aware of that

Yes from his comment he is but there are others that think it's based off of a .308

 

[444]

To add to what Varminterror said: I have owned several plain old .308 rifles. Load development was difficult because it was almost impossible to find a load they didn't shoot good to great.

When I got the last .308, I shot over 40 different loads before I had one that shot over an inch at 100 yards. And at that point, I was almost getting silly just trying stuff to see if I could find something that wasn't a tack driver.

On the other hand, I spent a lot of this past summer playing with a couple rifles in another caliber that eventually shot pretty good (not great), but it took me many many hours to get there. Hundreds of loads.

All that being said, I think that seeing what serious competitors use is THE best way find accurate cartridges. These guys are shooting for serious accuracy, they have something at stake (not sentiment), and a lot of them are willing to spend whatever it takes to win. You look at what is popular with them, and you narrowed things down quite a bit. The 6.5 Creedmoor is one of those cartridges and they arn't shooting it because it is popular or because some guy on the internet told them it was good: they are shooting it because they feel it gives them the best chance of winning.

 

[Dr T]

The second part of the OP question regarded the TC Icon. I have also puzzled over why it never took off. I suspect that the answer is in the marketing. Or maybe it is because TC is owed by S&W.

I have a TC Icon in .243 that is beautifully finished and very, very accurate with every factory load I have pushed through it. I have shot sub .75" groups with everything from 75 gr varmint loads to 100 gr. Federal Blue Box hunting loads from Walmart. However, the gun is so pretty I don't want to take it out in the pickup when I go hunting. My solution was to buy a Tikka in .243 with a synthetic stock. The actions are virtually identical and the Tikka is nearly as accurate as the TC--and I don't worry that the stock will get bunged up.

I consider the TC Venture (same action as Icon) to be a superb buy--especially with the $75 rebate until the end of this year. I am currently agonizing between a Venture in 6.5 CM and a CZ457 in 6.5 Grendel. BUT, that is another story...

 

[Dr T]

In a hunting context for whitetails, the 6.5 CM has a lot going for it. For example, my brother and sister-in-law both use one at this time. They are both a bit north of 70 yrs and greatly appreciate the soft recoil (SIL observes that hers kicks less than her 257 Roberts), accuracy, and bullet performance. Shots are rarely over 200 yards and the deer have not been going far once hit.

 

[eastbank]

I,m not a bench shooter any more just a hunter and don,t have a 6.5 CM, but my friend has one and a 6.5x55 howa. I do have several .260,s and 6.5x55,s . I have a rem 700 sps with a 24" barrel 1-8 twist and a CZ-550 America in 6.5x55 with a 24" barrel and a fast twist, loading them to the best-safe loads we have found the 6.5,s are great deer killers , but we have also found the the .260 and 6.5x55 give up nothing to the 6.5CM and all have killed deer ,with a few killed out to close to 300 yards. as reloaders we don,t worry about factory ammo for any of them, however the .260-7mmo8-.308 share the same parent case and we have them also and have ton,s of cases. just remember time stands sill for no one or thing and the 6.5 phase will pass with the so called discovery of new cartiges-bullets.. eastbank.

 

[Txhillbilly]

Eastbank,I hate to tell you,But the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge isn't a phase. It's here to stay,just like all of the older favorites that we also love to shoot
I'm a big fan of all the 6.5 mm cartridges,and shoot quite a few of them - 6.5 CM,260 Rem,260 AI,6.5-06,and a 6.5 x 6.8 wildcat AR. I also shoot a bunch of other cartridges in .224 - .257 - .284 - and .308 calibers.
I've built four rifles in 6.5 Creedmoor,they are all some of the most accurate rifles that I've ever shot. I spent yesterday shooting the two that I still have out to 1793 yards. They are a hell of a lot more fun to shoot long range than the 300 WM that I used to shoot at distance.

 

[Walkalong]

the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge isn't a phase. It's here to stay

Many folks thought the same way about the .260, but I agree, the 6.5 CM is looking really good right now with a ton of market support.

 

[eastbank]

and along came the 6mm CM, I didn,t knock the CM or the .260 or 6.5x55. just saying other calibers and cases will come along in the future. I do have a soft spot for the common 7mm08 and have found it to be a fine long range cartage and able to take the rams down at 500 yards even with less than perfect hit. eastbank.

 

[Walkalong]

I do have a soft spot for the common 7mm08

A lot of people do.