Panzerschwein
member
Remy already has the TAC-14 out in 20 bore. Come on Mossy!!
I bought a Shockwave today. Do I need it? No, but it should be fun. Planning on mounting a rail, LaserLyte CM-MK4, and a TacStar side saddle. If it proves to be accurate in this configuration it might become the car trip gun (to supplement my normal CCW).
I don't like the fact that most scabbards are either too short, exposing the trigger guard, or too long so that you have to go fishing to find it. Also, they scream "GUN!". Have any of you come up with a more discreet option?
I'd think with a good laser sight, that becomes an entirely different-and far more effective-weapon. All of a sudden, aiming from the hip is viable, the handy size is no real drawback (since you don't have to index it on a shoulder or cheek) and it becomes (IMHO) a hell of a house gun.
Does it? In reality? Generally we know that aiming anything with a laser sight is noticeably slower than with iron sights or a red dot. That's provable quickly on your own range, if you have a shot timer. You're never going to be as fast at "follow the bouncing ball" looking for that glowing dot to be printed on ... the wall, the couch, the ceiling, the floor, and, whoa there it is on the target! (wait, whoops, now it's gone again) -- as you are shouldering a shotgun or rifle and seeing that bead or front sight right there at the end of the gun where it always is. Iron sights are always faster. Optics are even a bit faster than that.
So laser sights are only a good idea if you really can't see your sights at all (maybe older folks with bad eyes, shooting small guns with bad sights) or for whatever reason you can't get the gun up to index in your line of sight. (Maybe you're shooting with night vision gear on, or using a riot shield.)
But if you're in your HOUSE, why would you not just use a full-stocked shotgun and get all the benefits of fast pointing that real shotguns have evolved for centuries to give you? Why would we say a PGO shotgun with a laser sight is a "hell of a house gun" when the most plain-Jane traditional shotgun would be FAR better?
There isn't, in that case, ANY benefit to not having a stock...so the Shockwave is a lousy "also-ran" in comparison.
Not if you've already put a lot of time into it and have proved how the systems work relative to each other. Which, we have. (And have a very long, detailed thread on it.)It seems easier to poo poo the idea than it does to learn something new.
But no where near as easily and accurately as a simple shotgun bead on a full-stocked shotgun. YES, you CAN line up sights and fire a PGO shotgun and hit what you're aiming at. Of course you can. But it is slow and hard to track accurately on a moving target (like a bad guy). It is the opposite of what you most need, when you most need it.With a vertical foregrip you can easily and accurately use iron sights.
As Dave McCracken's long write up and "challenge" showed, if a user practices a lot with a PGO they can get a little better with it. They can NOT approach the speed and accuracy they'd achieve with a full-stocked shotgun.If a user practices as much with a PGO as they do with a regular shotgun they would likely see the benefits at typical indoor ranges.
When was the last time you shot a number of skills drills on a shot timer with each? Also were you using defensive ammo? I don’t have a tac 14 but I do have an SBS and a raptor grip for it. I have done some shooting with it and a shot timer doing a direct comparison to other shotguns I own.Like I said. Subjective. I don't find the overwhelming compromise you seem to To each their own.
When was the last time you shot a number of skills drills on a shot timer with each? Also were you using defensive ammo? I don’t have a tac 14 but I do have an SBS and a raptor grip for it. I have done some shooting with it and a shot timer doing a direct comparison to other shotguns I own.
Threads like this make me really curious how many people have even used the items they are discussing and of those how many have done any kind of objective performance evaluation.
I believe you need to do a variety of drills to get a sense of each. I can game the results in a comparison between two guns by picking a drill that doesn’t really invoke the weaknesses of one gun or allow the strengths of another to be a factor. If my drill is 15 yard shots at 6” plates placed 5 yards apart from each other the difference in split times might not show as much as if he drill is firing hammers at single target at 5 yards.
I want to keep testing and working with the raptor grip shotgun because I like to have my own knowledge base based on my own abilities rather than parroting internet chatter that may or may not be true.
My opinion at this point is something like a tac 14 is a poor choice as a general purpose fighting shotgun. For most people it is not going to be an ideal HD weapon or as good of a choice as a number of other shotguns. It is also not as useless as many on the internet would like to claim. It is helpful to have some understanding and practice in how to properly shoot the thing. I personally view it as a niche weapon that is useful in that niche. However, it seems like many people don’t understand that niche and many also don’t really have a need for it. If people haven’t actually used both and haven’t done so with some form of objective measure of performance they may want to try and become more informed and less opinionated.
There's a world of difference when navigating hallways and transitioning to the non dominate hand.
http://www.humanityorganics.com/Hemp-Yoga-Mat-Bag_p_69.htmlI bought a Shockwave today. Do I need it? No, but it should be fun. Planning on mounting a rail, LaserLyte CM-MK4, and a TacStar side saddle. If it proves to be accurate in this configuration it might become the car trip gun (to supplement my normal CCW).
I don't like the fact that most scabbards are either too short, exposing the trigger guard, or too long so that you have to go fishing to find it. Also, they scream "GUN!". Have any of you come up with a more discreet option?
I think of a long gun in a home defense scenario, as a "barricade weapon"; something to cover the door with while waiting for help. I can do that much better with my full size riot gun than with a little stubby PGO. But if I'm riding my Harley across a couple states and decide to stop at a motel, it might be nice to have a 12 gauge with me instead of just my pistol, and the only one that I could reasonably carry would be a little one like the shockwave or the tac-14.And in order to decide that the PGO gun is a good choice for home defense one would have to establish that the relative ease in moving through a hallway is more important (actually, is WAY more important) than the deficit one experiences in hitting the threat as fast as possible, as accurately as possible, and tracking a moving target. That seems a bit like saying you'd choose to race at Monte Carlo in a car with a nicer, bigger back seat and a good air conditioning system, even though it doesn't have a lot of power or good brakes.
To the points raised specifically, a bit of practice (and maybe training) with a full stocked shotgun can easily overcome the perceived difficulty in moving in a structure or transitioning to the support shoulder, to the point that those factors become unimportant.
A bit of practice and training WON'T, however, make you as good and fast a shot with the PGO as with a stocked gun. One deficiency is surmountable. The other isn't.
Further, if you really do feel that ease of maneuvering in tight quarters and hand transitions are crucially important, one would be miles ahead to use a handgun, which has massive benefits over any shotgun (PGO or otherwise) in those areas, and is actually 10 times easier to get fast hits and transitions with than a PGO gun. Plus being fully operable with only one hand, leaving the other free for flashlights, opening doors, warding off grabs, etc. AND having a higher capacity.
Hence my "worst of both worlds" comments.
But if I'm riding my Harley across a couple states and decide to stop at a motel, it might be nice to have a 12 gauge with me instead of just my pistol
The ability to roll it up into a bedroll and bungee it down onto the back.Why? What do you prefer about the PGO 12 ga? The low capacity or the relatively poor aiming, tracking, follow-up shot speed, need to use two hands...?
It's not "instead of", it's "in addition to"..... I'm not going to leave my pistol at home just because I have one of these with me. But if some drunk ex-con is beating and kicking my motel room door at 1am because he's convinced his old lady is in the room with me (she wasn't), and swearing he's going to kill me when he get inside, I just think a load of 12 gauge buckshot is more likely to make him stop and leave me alone if he gets through the door, than any handgun round. I have shot a number of people but always with rifle rounds and even with those, they didn't always stop right away, handgun rounds are even less effective. 12 gauge buckshot at close range OTOH, has a pretty good track record of making people stop doing whatever they were doing that convinced us to shoot them.And you can't do that with a handgun? The question was which of those detriments makes you wish you had a PGO shotgun instead of the more usable and capable handgun you already did have?