The Germans' late 30's/WW2 view of .32 Auto/7,65 mm?

These sort of pistols would be intended for use by senior officers, when they need a small sidearm as opposed to being unarmed. They are for use at arm's length distance.

In other words, if you need that pistol, you have bigger problems to worry about, than if the bullet will go through a coat....because if you (likely a General or senior colonel) personally have to shoot for your life, the people whose job it was to protect you, probably just got killed.

As far as expediency, that's it exactly; .32 ACP was a very common round in pre-WW2 Europe, so they chambered guns for it because the ammo was available.

A lot of those probably went to military police and law enforcement. When the Gestapo knocked on your door you complied with them even if they did only carry a .32. Its just as effective as a 9mm when fired into the back of your head from 10 inches away too.

Assuming ball ammunition, my guess is that .32 can get the job done. My biggest worry is that the bullet isn't heavy enough to avoid deflection by ribs and such, which may explain its notoriously poor performance statistically speaking. Barriers and clothing are also a big problem, as the .32 doesn't really leave you any margin for that sort of thing.

Ignition Override

I would hazard a guess that Sauer and Mauser, and just about anyone else who wanted a government contract with the German military or police, found it expedient to chamber it in 7.65mm. Why? I believe mainly because this was the cartridge the German military had selected for their officers to have for their sidearm (the 7.65 was introduced some 9 or 10 years before the 9x17mm./.380). I doubt personal protection was really a consideration; numerous guns (as well as ammunition), were chambered for it and it was used mainly as a "badge of rank" more than anything else. If a pistol came in 7.65mm. there was a very good chance the Germans would adopt it; even if it came from another country like Belgium (FN Model 1910, 1910/22), Czechoslovakia (CZ VZ27), Hungary (Femaru Model 37M), Italy (Beretta Model 1935), and Spain (Astra Model 300).

US Military General Officers were issued .32s

http://www.coltautos.com/usgopistols/index.html

Walthers could be had in 380 thirty years before the PPK/S was created, but 32 was acepted generally in Europe as sufficient for non-military use, or for officers

Why so "weak" a round? The apparently common theory of ballistics back then allowed it. Guns were for self protection, getting shot was still no positive thing, and the theory of knocking someone down Dead Right There meant carrying a gun the size of the 1911A1 and using ammo that big to do it.

Now even that is disparaged. We have moved the ground so far up the power scale that .45 round nose is considered less than optimal. Nope, we need .357 Mag, hollow points, and 19 rounds to get the job done. What it reflects is that people were actually MORE civilized then than now. We have slipped downward toward tribes of thugs who refuse to yield at any cost, rather than accept that there needs to be some kind of authority in life to control evil.

As for use of a weapon in heavily clad opponents, I would expect that due consideration be given and that target placement be selected toward less "soft armor" and more instantly incapacitating shots be taken. Given that the .32 is a short range weapon, target exposed areas, not less optimal COM shots. Since it's a "belly gun" shoot lower in the winter and then target the eye socket as it comes down into range. There is a better chance of hitting a femoral artery, it seizes up the basic center of movement, there is a high mental regard to injuries in the groin, and a shot to the visual area will penetrate much further with less bone structure to deflect or defeat the bullet.

Gun fights are not conducted by the Marquis de Queensbury rules. Leave that to the police and our restrictions we hamper them with because "Civil Rights" and legislation. Civilian self defense shouldn't take a back seat adopting their institutional tactics. You pulled that gun out to stop someone, don't practice second best actions.

I doubt we'd get volunteers to demonstrate good shot placement at point blank range using paint ball guns, a .32 can be effective properly employed.

The Germans issued 32 automatics to many aircrew (I think the Luftwaffe gave up it's Lugers to the German Army in 1941). I believe many armored fighting vehicle crewmen got 32s instead of 9mms, too, because many German tanks and assault guns were quite cramped inside. I think, but am not sure, that 32s were issued to many rear-area troops and logistics troops in occupied countries (many more than got pistols in any other army) because almost anywhere the Germans went, they were hated.

This, to me, would account for the huge number of 32s the Germans acquired in WWII. They seem to have kept every factory in Europe that was capable of making a decent 32 or 380 going during the war.

Tirod said: Gun fights are not conducted by the Marquis de Queensbury rules. Leave that to the police and our restrictions we hamper them with because "Civil Rights" and legislation. Civilian self defense shouldn't take a back seat adopting their institutional tactics. You pulled that gun out to stop someone, don't practice second best actions.

Perhaps I should not ask, at the risk of hijacking the thread, but what are you talking about here, Tirod?

I'm thinking substituting the word "tactics" for the last word "action", clears things up. Basically I think he is saying, "the police may have to go by stupid rules, but that doesn't mean WE have to.

The Luftwaffe loved their 32 autos. One of their favorites was the Spanish Astra 300. Interestingly, the Germans didn't stamp the Astra 32s with Nazi acceptance markings, but did stamp the 380s. Go figure. FWIW my 300 will put a bullet (FMJ) through a treated lumber 2X4 and halfway through another. That stuff is pretty hard. For comparison, a Nagant revolver's bullet won't even go halfway into the first 2X4! The 32 auto is like a magnum compared to that!

Tark, thanks, that is what I thought Tirod meant, but I was curious what stupid rules he meant. I did not know of any regarding guns.

tark said:

I'm thinking substituting the word "tactics" for the last word "action", clears things up. Basically I think he is saying, "the police may have to go by stupid rules, but that doesn't mean WE have to.

The Luftwaffe loved their 32 autos. One of their favorites was the Spanish Astra 300. Interestingly, the Germans didn't stamp the Astra 32s with Nazi acceptance markings, but did stamp the 380s. Go figure. FWIW my 300 will put a bullet (FMJ) through a treated lumber 2X4 and halfway through another. That stuff is pretty hard. For comparison, a Nagant revolver's bullet won't even go halfway into the first 2X4! The 32 auto is like a magnum compared to that!

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A lot of the Sauers, Mausers and Walthers do not have Waffenampt stamps because they were not accepted by the military, but privately purchased pistols. The little eagle over an "N" is just the civilian proof mark. 9mm were next to impossible, or impossible to purchase privately, as the production was allocated to the military. Remember, most officers purchased their own sidearms.

And, while a .32 ACP is considered weak by today's standards, at 25 yards they will penetrate a winter coat and ruin the day of the wearer.

One of the most influential sources of our time was told that 7.65mm has a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window.

Jonesy814 said:

A lot of those probably went to military police and law enforcement. When the Gestapo knocked on your door you complied with them even if they did only carry a .32. Its just as effective as a 9mm when fired into the back of your head from 10 inches away too.

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No comrade, you're confusing NKVD and SMERSH with Gestapo, SIPO,..... The Germans preferred to lock them up in internment camp where they would work themselves to death to benifit the Reich. The 7,65 was rear echelon thing issued to police, paramilitary units, postal service, and higher party members not used to guns.

Tark: A bit off topic, but what ammo did you shoot in your Nagant? The commercial stuff is wimpy, the surplus is considerably more potent.

RON in PA said:

Tark: A bit off topic, but what ammo did you shoot in your Nagant? The commercial stuff is wimpy, the surplus is considerably more potent.

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It was the commercial. I have some surplus. I'll have to try it.

PabloJ said:

No comrade, you're confusing NKVD and SMERSH with Gestapo, SIPO,..... The Germans preferred to lock them up in internment camp where they would work themselves to death to benifit the Reich. The 7,65 was rear echelon thing issued to police, paramilitary units, postal service, and higher party members not used to guns.

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It did the job well enough on Hitlers head- by his own .32 PPK. Best thing he ever did for the world was removing himself from it.

grampajack said:

Assuming ball ammunition, my guess is that .32 can get the job done. My biggest worry is that the bullet isn't heavy enough to avoid deflection by ribs and such, which may explain its notoriously poor performance statistically speaking. Barriers and clothing are also a big problem, as the .32 doesn't really leave you any margin for that sort of thing.

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I wonder if part of the .32s horrible stopping statistic is that it was likely to be carried by those least likely to be adequately trained. Most "gun people" carry something bigger- and are probably more effective with regards to shot placement.
The German ranking officers probably didn't get in any more range time than our current crop of Annapolis or West Point grads- and from what some of our veteran members here have related, that ain't much!

NIGHTLORD40K said:

I wonder if part of the .32s horrible stopping statistic is that it was likely to be carried by those least likely to be adequately trained. Most "gun people" carry something bigger- and are probably more effective with regards to shot placement.
The German ranking officers probably didn't get in any more range time than our current crop of Annapolis or West Point grads- and from what some of our veteran members here have related, that ain't much!

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I've often wondered that. That's the problem with statistics is that there are too many variables in the real world for them to be useful. I think a lot of it though has to do with the .32 not having any margin for error, and it's rare in the real world for the target to stand square and present their chest unobstructed. Either they're going to be presenting a weapon of their own, in which case their arms will be obstructing their chest, or they're going to be taking some kind of defensive posture, in which case they'll be presenting their shoulder. Even the best .32 probably can't cut it under those circumstances.

To be fair, though, .380 and .38 HPs fall into the same category, and even a lot of duty loads in 9mm, .45, etc. wouldn't cut it because they expand too aggressively and barely make it past the 12'' mark in plain gel. That's why I like my carry loads to error towards the 18'' mark and don't even mind if the occasional one goes a little over. Even the 12-13 inchers are probably still a far sight better, as the higher energy duty rounds should be far less likely to be deflected, theoretically.

Replicas of the 1908 Sears and Roebuck catalog have been popular since I was a kid in the 70s. I used to pour over the gun section and marvel at the number of small autoloaders, nearly all of them 'pip squeak' chamberings by modern standards. Especially in pre-WWII Europe, most private citizens made do with a variety of calibers most here would label unsuitable for defense purposes.

Even during WWII, a really powerful handgun was simply unknown to many combatants. I don't think Japan ever produced anything worthwhile, but like most saw the handgun as much a status symbol for officers as a weapon likely to be used in battle.

I always chuckle when I see people decrying 9mm Luger as too weak, that they will only bet their lives on .40 or .45 caliber solutions. In the context of what a handgun was for the first 40 or 50 years of the metallic cartridge, 9mm Luger is rather powerful and served as a real look forward at its introduction.

If you give a lieutenant a useful weapon he might be tempted to go forward and get himself killed playing private. Give him a popgun and he'll stay where he belongs doing officer things.

For some odddd reason.


German officers were in a competition to get the smallest pistols.....and the CZs in .25 and .32/380 auto were highly prized.

Funny how they were all chambered in Browning inspired calibers.

I own a number of 32acp pistols, especially service pistols. They are fun to shoot, but I wouldn't want to count on one for SD. That is very small bullet, probably not traveling very fast, and probably FMJ. I have some nice ones, but they are Only For Fun.