The Germans' late 30's/WW2 view of .32 Auto/7,65 mm?

[Gelrir]

France issued nearly a million Ruby Mle 1915 (copies of the 1903 Browning) in .32 ACP during the Great War, to officers and to enlisted men who needed a pistol (such as machine gunners). Mine has the post-war "safety rivet"; it's here with the goofy triangular French army holster, and a Makarov lanyard (very similar to the French army lanyard of the period).

 

[Eugen]

I own a number of 32acp pistols, especially service pistols. They are fun to shoot, but I wouldn't want to count on one for SD. That is very small bullet, probably not traveling very fast, and probably FMJ. I have some nice ones, but they are Only For Fun.

I share your thoughts. I love my old .32's and they are delightful to shoot at the range, but I only carry one of my larger caliber compact pistols.

 

[drk1]

Maybe you should ask Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg, about the ."32s horrible stopping statistic" and "ability to penetrate ... the human body." They might offer a different perspective.

 

[Jim Watson]

The German police stuck with the .32 up into the 1970s until the Red Army Faction and the Baader-Meinhof Gang made them rethink their duty guns.
Walther tried again with the 9mm Police, similar to the 1930s 9mm Ultra, but the ballistic standards called for 9mm P.

 

[grampajack]

Maybe you should ask Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg, about the ."32s horrible stopping statistic" and "ability to penetrate ... the human body." They might offer a different perspective.

Executing unarmed people at point blank isn't exactly the best endorsement a round can have for self defense.

 

[ray15]

Maybe you should ask Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg, about the ."32s horrible stopping statistic" and "ability to penetrate ... the human body." They might offer a different perspective.

I believe Princip's 1910 Browning was chambered in .380.

 

[bannockburn]

tark

I remember reading somewhere that the Luftwaffe airmen also liked the Browning Model 1910/22; maybe because of the extra rounds it carried. I also recall that besides pistols, early on in the war, the Luftwaffe also issued some nicely made Sauer drillings, for "survival use" by downed aircrewman.

 

[grampajack]

tark

I remember reading somewhere that the Luftwaffe airmen also liked the Browning Model 1910/22; maybe because of the extra rounds it carried. I also recall that besides pistols, early on in the war, the Luftwaffe also issued some nicely made Sauer drillings, for "survival use" by downed aircrewman.

I recall reading that about US pilots who would use personally purchased .22 pistols with the idea they could use them for escape and evade type stuff if shot down. I think it was in one of the gun mags but I can't remember which one. I'm wanting to say American Rifleman.

 

[kBob]

Guys,

Practically every German Paratrooper up through Crete Jumped into battle with only a .32 ACP semi auto. For real. Honestly I am not making this up.

Keep in mind that the .32ACP was considered a sufficient Police caliber

 

[kBob]

Guys,

Practically every German Paratrooper that jumped into battle from Holland to Crete did so only armed with a .32 ACP pistol and generally with only one spare magazine all FMJ. Their rifles and crew served weapons were dropped in containers that had to be recovered by the paratroopers on the ground. Some actions in Holland and Belgium, such as at bridges and canal locks, were fought, and won, by German Falling Hunters with only .32 ACP pistols when weapons containers went too far adrift. On Crete some suffered terribly trying to fight with their .32s against Brits armed with .303 Enfield Rifles long range.

Believe it, or look it up, it is true.

They seemed to do alright.

Gelrir just posted an excellent picture of the standard French Service pistol (most common in terms of numbers) from 1917 to 1940.

Thanks Gelrir.

They Germans used .32ACP pistols because they could get them. Ammo was common for them and in production.

They also did not have the internet to tell them what an "awful" choice they were making.......

The West German uniformed police I worked with in the mid 1970s were armed almost entirely with Walther PP and the French Police I dealt with in early '76 had PPk both in .32ACP. When I returned to West Germany in 1982 I got to train with Police converting to 9x19mm and some complained of the larger pistols and even of the unnecessary additional power, while some welcomed both.

-kBob

 

[.455_Hunter]

The European loaded FMJ .32 auto has ample soft target penetration, regardless of what issue clothing the target is wearing. The same jibberish about woollen great coats providing protection from the British .380 revolver round is another common yarn promoted by the uninformed.

 

[drk1]

You're absolutely correct! Please forgive my error. According to the museum in Vienna that currently houses three of the remaining pistols, including Princip's, they were all 9mm/kurz (aka .380). I just finished one supposedly well researched book dealing with the assassination, The Month Than Changed the World, in which the author went on and on about "revolvers" and another book on the history of FN when stated the pistols were .32 cal. There is obviously enough bad info. out there; thanks for catching that!

 

[bannockburn]

grampajack

I remember reading something similar to that in "Soldier of Fortune" magazine about what some U.S. pilots carried during the Vietnam War. Most carried the standard issue 1911 but there were some who carried high capacity 9mm.s, like the Browning Hi-Power, and mention was made about a pilot who carried a .22 (Colt Huntsman maybe?), as he thought it would be more useful in an escape and evade situation.

 

[kBob]

Actually Army pilots carried mostly the K frame S&W that we call today the Model 10 and was when bought by the government called the Military & Police. Generally left over pistols from WWII.

My OH 58 pilot in West Germany in 1982 was issued such as well. Even had the butt lanyard loop. When flying as an artillery observer with him I initially wore a M19 six inch that stuck out the bottom of my vest holster as a joke. You have to keep Gun Ship/ scout pilots under control as they tend to have a "fighter pilot mentality" Having a two inch longer barrel seemed to help.

-kBob

 

[Panzerschwein]

You guys have the bigger picture. As always, interesting.

At the huge Wanenmacher's Tulsa show over a week ago, you might not believe how many Mauser Hsc's, Sauer 38Hs (original bakelite grips) and Lugers were avail.
Never mind WW1 rifles and Garands plus Carbines et cetera. Just imagine what else...and most of it at silly prices.

Silly high or silly low prices?

 

[MikeInOr]

The .32 acp was the first cartridge John Browning designed... around the early 1900's and it was widely adopted. This was a period of great change in the firearm world as weapons were transitioning from black powder to much more powerful smokeless powder. I would imaging that a small smokeless pistol cartridge was looked at as equivalent to a much larger black powder cartridge. Metallurgy at that time was also not what it is today and much softer steel was the material of those days. Semi auto pistol were also in their infancy. All these factors made the .32 acp a popular cartridge in the early 1900's. I would guess the Sauer 38H in .32 was just a hold over from this era and made use of a widely available ammo supply. Magnum fever hadn't evolved yet.

But most of all there weren't a bunch of arm chair hand gun yahoos speculating what size ammo is needed to properly kill some one posting all over the internet yet!

 

[444]

But most of all there weren't a bunch of arm chair hand gun yahoos speculating what size ammo is needed to properly kill some one posting all over the internet yet!

FWIW: I have seen a bunch of people seriously wounded or killed with .22s and .25s. I can't say with any certainty that I have ever seen someone shot with a .32 ACP (if they were, I didn't know it) but I am fairly certain based on my other experience that it would have very little problem killing someone. Never mind penetrating clothing.

I get it, as a military handgun it would be questionable at best.

 

[Ignition Override]

Cooldill: Items which I was familiar with at Wanenmacher's had silly high prices. I only checked a very limited number of tags, spending my time mostly in a steady walk, to avoid missing any Warsaw Pact milsurps.

A buddy who has attended other, shows there reminded me about what happens at all gun shows-some people have no interest in selling (even if a wife Says to sell something) and only want to show their "museum" to the show's visitors, and socialize.

 

[Dr.Rob]

.32 Mauser HSC stashed more easily in a pilot's pocket than a Luger or P-38. Not a lot or room in a cockpit.

No one was shooting his way out of England or Russia with that.

 

[Jim K]

"Badge of Office" may be a cliche but most of those German officers of what we would call field grade and above carried small pistols more as a symbol than as serious weapons. And of course, Germany in WWII had thousands of officials of every kind, many of whom were allowed to be armed. In terms of numbers, Nazi Germany was probably the most heavily armed society in history (Jews, of course, were an exception).. Most of those small pistols were in 7.65 Browning (.32 ACP); the 9mm Kurz/Short was known, but was not in the military/police supply system so anyone who owned a pistol in 9mm Kurz was on his own for ammo..

Jim

 

[lysanderxiii]

Maybe you should ask Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg, about the ."32s horrible stopping statistic" and "ability to penetrate ... the human body." They might offer a different perspective.

That was a .380 ACP....

 

[lysanderxiii]

by German Falling Hunters

"Fallschirm" translates to "parachute" not "fall"

Breaking down the compound word 'Fallschirm', you get: 'falling shield', similar to 'Regenschirm' for 'rain shield' or 'umbrella'.

'Fallschirmjäger' is quite literally 'parachute-rifleman', using the traditional military definition of 'Jäger'

Oh, and photographic evidence shows a preponderance of P-08 Lugers in the hands in the German paratroopers in Crete.

 

[lysanderxiii]

.32 Mauser HSC stashed more easily in a pilot's pocket than a Luger or P-38. Not a lot or room in a cockpit.

No one was shooting his way out of England or Russia with that.

Well, even with a P-08 or a P-38, you probably aren't shooting your way out of England or Russia....

 

[kBob]

lysanderxiii,

Thank you for correcting my German. I do not actually speak more than enough than to order a beer and "get in trouble" I was miss lead by some of the German Airborne troops I worked with in '74 I guess that seemed to think the best English translation was "Falling Hunter", and some green bill less flopy hatted German troops with oak leaves on them that said that Jager meant "Hunter" ,and by some German Alpine Jager that said their name meant "Mountain Hunter"

I do realize that in the Napolionic Era that units armed with rifled guns were often referred to as Jager.

Funny story time though.......in 74 while at Stettin Training area one class I was giving to French and German troops was on the US M60 Machinegun. on the approach of an older , as in why hasn't that guy retired yet, German NCO my German counter part warned me of the approach of the old man, one that could find anything wrong with whatever one did.

With a grumpy look on his face he watch the basic class and then stayed for the show and tell on disassembly. When I pulled out the oprod and bolt he stopped me. Picking up the bolt and op rod he said, "I know this gun. You stole it." I was a little confussed but went on to remove the feed tray cover and he picked it up. "I know this as well. You stole it from another gun."

A little light went off over my head and viola it came to me. Yes the feed tray cover on the M60 IS basically the feed tray from the MG42 and yes the gas operating system IS basically the system from the FG42. I explained that the original proto type was in fact an FG42 with an MG42 feed cover slapped on its side and that development went from there.

I then said that if one were to steal, one should endeavor to steal THE BEST. We then got along great and I found out why they called him the old man. He was a WWII vet...of German Paratroops. He actually used the FG42 in Italy. and the MG42 as well.

-kBob

 

[lysanderxiii]

lysanderxiii,

Thank you for correcting my German. I do not actually speak more than enough than to order a beer and "get in trouble" I was miss lead by some of the German Airborne troops I worked with in '74 I guess that seemed to think the best English translation was "Falling Hunter", and some green bill less flopy hatted German troops with oak leaves on them that said that Jager meant "Hunter" ,and by some German Alpine Jager that said their name meant "Mountain Hunter"

I do realize that in the Napolionic Era that units armed with rifled guns were often referred to as Jager.

Funny story time though.......in 74 while at Stettin Training area one class I was giving to French and German troops was on the US M60 Machinegun. on the approach of an older , as in why hasn't that guy retired yet, German NCO my German counter part warned me of the approach of the old man, one that could find anything wrong with whatever one did.

With a grumpy look on his face he watch the basic class and then stayed for the show and tell on disassembly. When I pulled out the oprod and bolt he stopped me. Picking up the bolt and op rod he said, "I know this gun. You stole it." I was a little confussed but went on to remove the feed tray cover and he picked it up. "I know this as well. You stole it from another gun."

A little light went off over my head and viola it came to me. Yes the feed tray cover on the M60 IS basically the feed tray from the MG42 and yes the gas operating system IS basically the system from the FG42. I explained that the original proto type was in fact an FG42 with an MG42 feed cover slapped on its side and that development went from there.

I then said that if one were to steal, one should endeavor to steal THE BEST. We then got along great and I found out why they called him the old man. He was a WWII vet...of German Paratroops. He actually used the FG42 in Italy. and the MG42 as well.

-kBob

Chasseur - Jäger - Hunter - Ranger . . .




Of course, if you just wanted to piss him off, you could have told him the FG-42 was nothing more than a simplified Lewis machine gun. The first proto-types even had the same clock spring in a lump under the receiver....



I do like me an FG-42, by the way: