Reloading Confused

Just look at one manual to start with. Follow a load recipe exactly from that to get the hang of it.
What kind of press did you buy, most of them come with some instruction manual of sorts. What comes with a Lee Press is very simple.

If you can find someone local to you to show you the ropes that would be the fast track.

I usually get info from at least 3 sources, and sort of average it out. You also need to look at the test method... some use firearms, some use test barrels, some readings are in CUP, some in PSI... so there are a lot of variances. There are also variances between types of bullets, even if they are the same weight, etc. Newer data is very often 'lawyered down' a bit vs older data, also, powder formulations have changed over the years so older data may not match newer data.

With very few exceptions, you can't be faulted with starting with the low side of your cumulative data, and working up from there.

Get another manual and average them. ;-)
Kidding! But it can be confusing. Can you post an example from your manuals? Are the bullet types and weights identical?

A little common sense is required also. For example if one of your manuals says start at 12.7 with a given projectile and powder and another manual says start at 15.3 with the same projectile and powder, but both have maximum charges of, say, 20 grains, then you can be fairly confident that 15.3 is an appropriate starting load.

Also you are probably aware of this but some data is given in maximum charges, with a note somewhere that says reduce 10% to start. So make sure that your 15.3 actually is a starting charge and not maximum.

"reading the manual" usually refers to the descriptions of how to reload.

Not to be confused with consulting the manuals for load data for a specific combination of components. Understanding the disagreements between different published recipe info is the subject of much discussion on this forum.

First of all, I'm not an expert but I agree, you're correct, they are all different. It has been a continuing source of consternation for me since I started hand loading over a dozen years ago or so. If you can find someone who will spend a few hours with you, showing you what to do, that's best. I had the advantage of attending a workshop put on by a member of a local shooting club about reloading. His advice was to follow published recipes at first. Just pick one. Go with one that you have the components for and be mindful of what firearms the published loads were tested with. Start with small batches and find out what you like best and work up. The thing about handloading is that you can customize a load for your particular firearm. Learning happens when you try out what you've read and build on it. I can't tell you more specifically than that other than to be safe, start low, keep careful records, and have fun.

Of course...read the books....

There are many ways of reloading, and people are often as different as the load recipes, but this is my basic procedure. Use it or forget it, it's worth what ya paid for it...

My biggest frustration in the learning process was figuring out the differences in primers. For simplicity sake forget the brand and go with the same type. Using a specific listed primer is of little importance, just keep using what you start with and you will be ok.

I have been reloading for 20+ years, started at about 12years old.
What I do is to have several books handy. I also have an app on my tablet which pulls data from all of the powder companies websites. I find the bullet I am loading, or something similar in shape, weight, and bearing surface (friction between barrel and bullet). I reference a few loads and make an educated guess at starting load based upon what is available. It doesn't so much matter if he book lists a hornady bullet and im using a speer so long as its really similar. If my books give me 20, 20.5, and 20.2 gr as starting loads im tuning up my scale to something in that range. Rough guess to hit inside that range, don't care where as long as I can weigh it and know what it is that becomes my starting load. Then if the max is 25.6, 25.8 and 26 then I also make an educated guess in that range as a max load.

So let's set this up... my scale dials in at 20.3 for my starting load. I have roughly 5.5 gr of room before I hit max load. So I start at 20.3 and load in fairly even increments to about 25gr because I know optimal accuracy is probably not going to be a load pushing max. So I'm loading 6 or so loads in this range. Starting at 20.3 I go to 21.1, 22, 23, 24, 25. I load 6 of each and clearly mark the case heads so I know what is what. Use a sharpie.

I go shoot starting at the bottom and working my way up. I shoot 1 round of the load and carefully check the brass for pressure signs or issues. I then shoot 4 more rounds of each load. If I know i made a badly pulled shot, I shoot that 6th round as a replacement.

My experience is that I'm happiest about 2/3 up the chain, so let's just say that the 23 and 24 gr loads shot best. I then go back and set my scale for 23 and go up in increments again to 24 and head back to the range doing the exact same as before. Carry 6 of each, shoot 5 with a flier on reserve, check your group and see what shoots best. That realistically is your load. Call it 23.6 or whatever. You can tweak forever but this is your initial load workup.

Assuming your groups get better as the load gets hotter, you can keep going to the max listed load in any of the books. You can go beyond that if you choose to, but realistically you will see a trend of better shooting groups until it goes to trending worse (usually near max load so no reason to keep going, if you do go higher understand your going against data published by professionals and your liable for your injuries if you blow up a gun). Just before the accuracy trend flips you will have a nice tight group. Find that point, preferably inside the confines of printed data. It's usually somewhere in the middle, and every gun is different.

This works the same for handgun, or rifle. The only notable difference in any platform realistically is between manual operated guns and semiautos. Manually operated guns you do exactly as stated above. For semiautos you do exactly as above but also note when your gun reliably cycles the action and don't go below that point again (for frustration reasons).

The difference in charge weight for the same powder in a given cartridge is typically reflective of different bullets used for each respective book's load. When you see grossly disparate charge weights in different books for the same powder and cartridge, it is almost always because the bullets are different. For example, Hornady XTP's use very different charge weights than typical JHP's, and lead bullets run different data than jacketed... if the powder charges are way off, either you're looking at different bullets, or you're holding at least one unreliable source for data (aka, a reseller who doesn't pressure test their loads).

Match powder charge to your specific bullet, regardless of what another book says about a different bullet. There are commonly only two sources which could ever conflict for the same particular bullet - in which case, it's the powder manufactures data against the bullet manufacturers data, and also in which case, both are typically safe, the differences small, and only driven either by slightly different pressure standards or more commonly, different equipment. Again - both of these are safe.

Again - Match your powder charge to your specific bullet. Don't try to average data from multiple sources regarding multiple unrelated bullets.

Do your load work up, and learn how to look for pressure signs. It's only a few powders in which starting too low is a danger, whereas all of them are dangerous when loading too high. Match your charge weight to your specific bullet. Start low, work up. Stop and back up when primers, cases, or extraction tells you it hurts.

What caliber are you trying to reload? Do you already have bullets and/or powder? If you post some specifics the people here can either tell you from direct experience what the charges and dimensions need to look like or point you to a reliable source of load data.

I recommend using the data published by the powder manufacturer, unless you are using a bullet whose maker publishes their own. Either way as a beginning reloader obtaining load data for the exact bullet you are using is what you need to eliminate as many variables as possible and be safe. If you are doing a rifle round I'd definitely pick a popular bullet for which solid data exists. Many here use less expensive bullets from small manufacturers in pistol applications that are similar enough to the big-name makers' products that their load data can be used or easily adapted.

Varminterror just proved my point on how differently some people approach reloading. He is clearly reserved in what data he uses by using data only for that particular bullet, which is admittedly best, but sometimes a bullet is not listed anywhere. You heard about Whizbang Doomaflotchie and somehow aquired a box in the correct caliber for whatever you are loading...do you sit and wait for data as some folks do, or do you know that this bullet is nearly identical to the one Hornady makes. Your calipers tell you it’s the same, all of the specs are the same, it’s just got a square hollow tip rather than round. Do you load based on Hornady data (starting light working up etc) or do you wait for data that specifically lists that fancy new bullet from Whizbang?

All Reloaders are a bit obsessive compulsive about their process, and everybody does something a little different. Varminterror seems like he is a bit OCD about selecting his data from published sources, ok, that’s probably a good thing to focus on. I know my personal OCD is in verifying powder drops. I charge most cases in the 50rd plastic trays pistol ammo comes in. If I’m using a drop I always weigh the powder from the front left case after weighing every 5th in the first tray, then dumping it back into the hopper and recharge it in case the tiniest amount of powder fell out when I dumped it to weigh it.

My point in this is to explain that there is not one single specific way to reload. Your initial question led me down my original path and then Varminterror also weighed in with sound advice and experience. You have read the books and you have your basic information in front of you. Go slow, do things the way that makes sense in your mind (verified by the books)(preferably). Ask questions until you get the hang of things. We are here to help you, the only way we can do that is if you ask.

By the way One3, where are you from and welcome to this addiction...aka hobby. I have met folks a couple times and essentially gave them an evening lesson on reloading. If your close, my garage is open for your learning experience.

What caliber are you trying to reload? Do you already have bullets and/or powder? If you post some specifics the people here can either tell you from direct experience what the charges and dimensions need to look like or point you to a reliable source of load data.

Click to expand...

A good idea, I would just mention to always check data from the internet against published data. People here are very good and the mods do an excellent job but it is easy to make a typo.
Some powder companies list start and max charges for their powders Western (Ramshot/Accurate Arms, Hodgdon) are examples, some just list Max charges Alliant is an example.
If all that is listed is a Max charge general rule is to reduce by 10% to get a start charge.
I always like to check the powder companies web site, they did make (or do market) the powder.

Since your starting out be aware that OAL will affect pressure. The deeper a bullet is in the case the less space there is in the case, less space in the case = higher pressure with the same charge.
To give quick example going form a 9mm round with the QAL a 1.10 to 1.06 inccreased velocity about 50 fps. About the same as if I had increased the powder charge .1 or .2 gr on the 1.10 load.

Different thoughts on varying start/max charges in manuals.
Lots of things can be the reason they vary, a few are different lots of powder may be a little different, different test temps, different barrels, lots of bullets, bullet type/hardness/bearing surface, primers etc...
1. Line of thought is say I have start charge 10 from one source an 11 from another source with a max of say 13 and 15. OK average 10 and 11 and get 10.5, average 13 and 15 and get 14.
2 A different line of thought is use the lowest numbers, err on the side of caution. So say 10 is your start and 13 is your max.

What is really the MAX for you gun will be different than what is published because all guns/ barrels are different.
Start low and work up. Erring on the side of caution is not a bad plan here.

Not directly addressing your question but it is always a good idea to only have one type of powder out at a time.
Mixing up data and powders is a recipe for an accident.
Simple example say some .223 load calls for 23.5 gr of H335. 23.5 gr of some pistol powder say HP38 (which sort of looks like H335) would more than likely blow up the gun with possible shooter injury or death.
(I say more than likely because I have not tried it to see, but I doubt the rifle would survive it.)
Be careful, come up with a plan to prevent this from happening. It does happen.

Usually the most accurate load is less than a MAX charge as other posters have noted.

Be safe, have fun.

I focus on the bullet because the bullet is the asymmetric aspect... the manipulated variable... When case, primer, and powder are the same, but the bullet changes, and the resulting powder charge to reach the same max pressure changes, it tells you something.

When I coach new reloaders, I encourage them NOT to start with obscure bullets, because it leaves them lacking support in a phase where they need it. Experienced reloaders take for granted their learned ability to evaluate bullets for form to make assessments which are beyond that of the newbie as they're trying to learn EVERY aspect of reloading at once.

Varminterror said:

I focus on the bullet because the bullet is the asymmetric aspect... the manipulated variable... When case, primer, and powder are the same, but the bullet changes, and the resulting powder charge to reach the same max pressure changes, it tells you something.

When I coach new reloaders, I encourage them NOT to start with obscure bullets, because it leaves them lacking support in a phase where they need it. Experienced reloaders take for granted their learned ability to evaluate bullets for form to make assessments which are beyond that of the newbie as they're trying to learn EVERY aspect of reloading at once.

Click to expand...

I totally agree about it's the bullet. And with powder companys putting out data for various jacketed and plated bullets by name, makes it easier for a new reloader to aquire the proper components without breaking the bank.

Welcome to THR, you will not find a better group to help you alone in your quest to learn how to hand load.

It's a daunting task for some one new starting out due to there is no 2 sources that match. It all gets into the details, which you have to look closely. In a lot of cases it's the OAL that is used, bullet, barrel vs test chamber..... Some use the MAX OAL which would bring the pressure down for the same load if it was shortened to a normal usable length (pistol). One of the first things you need to determine is the working OAL if this is hand gun. Chambers are all over the place. Then like everyone indicated, pull your load data from several sources and average the low and high. If there is only a High, you reduce 10% as a rule. But there are exceptions with at least 1 powder (H110/W296) which is a full magnum powder that does not like be reduced. Hopefully you not starting out with it. On handguns I would recommend a powder that is easy to meter and fills the case making it easy to see. Some powders like Tightgroup (TG) are high density and you could very easily do a triple charge and would not notice it. For this case I do not recommend TG for anything. There are better choices to make life simpler. TG does have its place but I think its more for the experienced hand loader. Once you have your OAL test function with your gun. It should feed and eject without hanging. If good proceed to load workup. I like to make 5-10 rounds of each for handgun, stepping up normally in 0.1gr or 0.2 gr increments depending on the spread from low to high. Then go test these starting at the low and step up. With a simi-auto your gun may not function properly till you hit mid range. Look for pressure signs as you go. This is something you will develop over time with experience. Primers are a poor indicator of pressure for once they start showing it you already over max pressure. Soot around the outside of the case normally indicates low pressure. As you step up this should clear. With simi-autos the directions it throws brass can be a indicator too, when you compare it to factory. Your most accurate load will be some where between mid range and max, but very seldom at max.

Assuming your starting off on handgun, determine your OAL, load up some test loads and go test them. The very first time will be frightening not knowing if they will shoot or blow your gun up.

If your starting off on rifle you have a lot wider load range to work in. Most of your time will be brass prep, the loading part is the easy part. The procedure is in general the same. You need to determine the MAX OAL that your gun can handle with the bullet your planing on using. This is where some special tools come in for measuring but can be done old school. The reason you want to check this first is that some rifles have min spec chambers which can limit the Max OAL you can use. You do not want to be jamming the bullet into the rifling. This will send the pressure very high quickly. In most all cases I start with book value (OAL) that the mfg suggested. I do have several rifles that can not take this length for it's 0.030" into the lands. The reason for checking. A old school way is load up a dummy round long then chamber it by hand, pushing it in till it can't go any further, then tilt the barrel up and see it if falls free. If it does your not into the lands and can proceed to load if you like. I prefer to determine what max is just to know what my bullet jump is. If it does stick you need to knock it out with a cleaning rod, shorten the length 0.005" and test again.

This is one hobby that it's good to be OCD on for safety reasons. Just remember your playing with controlled explosions. It can go bad in a hurry if you mess up.

Enjoy

The "Big Deal" about manuals not being exactly the same is easy to explain; the manuals are not hard and fast formula. They are published reports of the results of what different lab technicians found when they used the listed data in their test equipment. I would be concerned about the validity of their testing if every manual was identical.

When you're told to read a manual, the front section/"How To" is what is recommended. I usually recommend a copy of "The ABCs of Reloading" as it's much more in depth for the how to and why.

If you are a new reloader, start with the lowest load among the manuals. There is no danger in that and nobody will call you a sissy for using "light" loads. If necessary you can go up with the charges looking for improvements and watching for excess pressure signs...

I have to confess I didn't read 100% of every previous post so forgive me if this was mentioned. Some of these variations you see manual to manual can be because of different brands of bullet in the same bullet weight. For instance a 7mm Speer 140g spitzer will require different load data than Barnes 140g TTSX. Reason being the Barnes is a solid copper bullet and the Speer a conventional lead core. The Barnes will create more pressure with the exact same load 1. due to the lack of obturation as the enters the rifling and 2. the Barnes bullet is longer because copper weighs less than lead and will have more surface area touching the lands/grooves and cause more drag. I always recommend you go by the bullet manufacture's recommendations when possible. I use Speer manuals for Speer bullets, Nosler Manuals for Nosler bullets whenever possible, using general recommendations based on bullet weight alone can get you into trouble especially when approaching max velocity

One3
I, have heard many times, read the manuals and you will learn. I have read and looked at some of the manuals. They are all different.

Click to expand...

First of all, you need to "study" not simply "read" or "look at" the manual you are going to use.

Second, when you start to "study" a manual, the part you need to start with are not the charge tables, but the bit at the front where they explain how to reload. Had you already done that, the odds are you would have already answered your own question.

Third, the loads for a particular cartridge will vary based on factors such as bullet weight, bullet diameter, bullet construction, seating depth, who manufactured the case, type of primer being used, the particular gun being tested, etc. Only if all variables are identical would we expect the loads to be identical.

Can any one tell us beginners how to do what we need to do?

Click to expand...

Yes, as I have posted on this site dozens of times over the last few years, what a beginner needs to is:

• Step away from the reloading bench. You need a quantum of knowledge before you start messing with equipment and components.
• Pick a published reloading manual. A lot of people like Lee's ABCs of Modern Reloading, orthers like Lyman. I prefer the Hornady manual myself, but they will all say the same thing.
  
• Locate the section near the front that explains "How to Reload"
• Read it thoroughly.
• Now, go back through it again a second time studying it. Remember as you study that you will be tested and whether you pass the test will dictate whether your nickname is "lefty" or "one eye jack".
• Sit down and write out a set of reloading procedures based on what you have learned that you intend to follow every time to approach the reloading bench.
• I suggest you write the procedures in the form of a checklist so that you can check off each step as you complete it to be sure nothing gets overlooked.
• Now, using the knowledge you have gained, pick a cartridge you want to reload (one cartridge type at a time), the powder, bullet type, bullet weight, primer, etc. and bring these components to the reloading bench as you need them and remove them when you are done.
• Begin with the Starting load (its called that for a reason).
  
• Load some cartridges to test.
  
• Test them looking at your target for accuracy and at the spent cases for pressure signs.
• Continue increasing the charge incrementally until you get 1) a load you like, 2) you get pressure signs, or 3) you reach maximum load.

Good luck.

I'd feel a little more confident giving advice if I were a better shooter but IMHO a lot of hard work and sweat went into the development of published load data and even though the tables may vary and some publishers might go out on a limb farther than others, reloading your own ammo inherently has risks and it pays to be conservative with whatever table you settle on. Personally I like Hodgdon's.


FWIW I've found two areas that will throw a wrench into calculations based on the tables:

1) seating on, or into, the lands.

2) using a barrel that's significantly longer than the test bbl

ray15 said:

What caliber are you trying to reload? ...

Click to expand...

wag is .357

wrench459 said:

wag is .357

Click to expand...

My WAG is .308

Varminterror said:

The difference in charge weight for the same powder in a given cartridge is typically reflective of different bullets used for each respective book's load. When you see grossly disparate charge weights in different books for the same powder and cartridge, it is almost always because the bullets are different. For example, Hornady XTP's use very different charge weights than typical JHP's, and lead bullets run different data than jacketed... if the powder charges are way off, either you're looking at different bullets, or you're holding at least one unreliable source for data (aka, a reseller who doesn't pressure test their loads).

Match powder charge to your specific bullet, regardless of what another book says about a different bullet. There are commonly only two sources which could ever conflict for the same particular bullet - in which case, it's the powder manufactures data against the bullet manufacturers data, and also in which case, both are typically safe, the differences small, and only driven either by slightly different pressure standards or more commonly, different equipment. Again - both of these are safe.

Again - Match your powder charge to your specific bullet. Don't try to average data from multiple sources regarding multiple unrelated bullets.

Do your load work up, and learn how to look for pressure signs. It's only a few powders in which starting too low is a danger, whereas all of them are dangerous when loading too high. Match your charge weight to your specific bullet. Start low, work up. Stop and back up when primers, cases, or extraction tells you it hurts.

Click to expand...

Critical point, pressure signs. To add: regardless of book you use, when getting within, say .6 grains of their max load, look at cartridges verry closely. If you see a partial moon indentation, you are at critical. Would advise studying all you can about detecting pressure signs-and there are several...seriously.

just sayin'

spitballer said:

2) using a barrel that's significantly longer than the test bbl

Click to expand...

I just noticed this in the thread, and thought for the newbies, this deserves clarification - if your barrel is longer than the test barrel, your velocity will be higher. The Berger manual even gives guidance for every cartridge as to approximate change in velocity per inch of barrel length.

The maximum pressure peak created by the charge is NOT dependent upon barrel length, however, so I don't want new reloaders to get confused into thinking adding barrel length means they have to run lighter charge weights.

quest4perfection said:

regardless of book you use, when getting within, say .6 grains of their max load, look at cartridges verry closely.

Click to expand...

Agreed, when a guy gets close to the edge, care needs to be taken.

But I don't like to throw out generalizations for "how close is close?" because not all cases and not all powders are the same. So this is an area where I encourage new reloaders to really understand their cartridges and be aware of the implications of what they're doing before they take on solo reloading.

To elaborate for the new reloaders via a few examples: in small case cartridges like 221FB, we only have about 1.5grn span between starting and max loads. Each .1grn is a pretty sizable percentage of the spread. For small case pistol cartridges, the starting-to-max spread might only be 0.8-1.0grn. So for small cases, 0.6grn margin is way too much. Alternatively, when I'm loading 300RUM or Wby, let alone 338 Edge or Lapua, there might be 6 grains from min to max, I might need to start looking for pressure signs more than a full grain below max. And of course, to further complicate things, there are a LOT of older cartridges which have incredibly conservative pressure standards compared to the ability of modern firearms - as examples, someone reloading 45-70 for the Marlin 1895 or a 45colt for a Ruger Redhawk have a LOT of room in the capacity of their firearms and can press up against maximum manual data with much less concern than someone loading 300WSM or 454Casull. I think about approaching a stoplight - if you're on dry roads in a lightweight car with no other traffic, slamming on the brakes right before the light isn't very risky. If you're on icy roads with a 84,000lb 18wheeler in heavy traffic, a guy needs to start braking much earlier before the light. A reloader just needs to realize whether they're driving a Honda Civic or a Peterbilt.