coloradokevin
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- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
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I felt this was more appropriate for a new thread, but the questions I have about these sections of law came from the story about the arrest of Douglas Haig for selling Armor Piercing ammo to Stephen Paddock (the Las Vegas shooter).
Here we go:
1) What qualifies as "manufacturing" AP ammo?
2) Are the projectiles considered ammunition in this sense, or just the loaded cartridge when complete and ready to fire?
3) Is it legal to possess AP ammo?
4) Is it legal to personally load, for personal use, an AP bullet into a completed cartridge, or is this "manufacturing"?
5) What is the exact legal definition of "armor piercing ammo"?
Honestly, I never really looked into these laws before, because it really didn't matter a whole lot for anything I was doing. But, after reading the affidavit for arrest of Douglas Haig, I sort of feel like I had a misunderstanding of this law, and I'm guessing that a lot of gun show sellers I've encountered were probably in violation of these laws.
My understanding had always been along the lines of:
It's lawful to have/buy/sell surplus AP ammo, and it's legal to reload AP bullets for personal use, just so long as this isn't pistol ammunition (which was somehow illegal in any AP form).
But, that italicized and summarized version of my understanding came from information told to me over the years by various individual sellers. I never really researched it, because I don't really shoot AP ammo (it's a wasteful way to destroy the steel plate targets I paid good money for).
Anyway, it has been a while, but during the mid and late 1990's and early 2000's I used to frequent a lot of gun shows. It seems like every show I attended had someone (often multiple folks) selling AP ammo, though much of this ammo was surplus stuff. Selling surplus AP ammo wouldn't seem to violate section a(7) of 18 USC 922, but it still appears to violate a(8).
There were also a lot of people at these shows selling bags of black-tipped AP bullets (projectiles only), mostly in the .308 size. These were clearly being sold to reloaders. A lot of these vendors would even keep magnets on their sales tables to prove to people that the bullets had steel cores.
So, where's the real legal line in all of this?
The sections of law I mentioned above seem pretty clear that "armored piercing ammunition" is illegal to manufacture or sell (save for people doing so to the government), but it doesn't really define what "armor piercing" means. Also, the definition of "manufacturing" that seems to be associated with these laws implies that someone is doing so for commercial purposes.
Does that mean that a buyer of a bag of AP bullets is legally allowed to load them for personal use? I'm having trouble believing that's the case when a person who is building an SBR for personal use is still "manufacturing" that rifle in the legal sense, and must comply with NFA laws and file a Form 1 as a manufacturer of such a gun.
After seeing this stuff sold for a decade or more at dozens of gun shows, I kind of wonder how this could all be so illegal!
Here we go:
1) What qualifies as "manufacturing" AP ammo?
2) Are the projectiles considered ammunition in this sense, or just the loaded cartridge when complete and ready to fire?
3) Is it legal to possess AP ammo?
4) Is it legal to personally load, for personal use, an AP bullet into a completed cartridge, or is this "manufacturing"?
5) What is the exact legal definition of "armor piercing ammo"?
Honestly, I never really looked into these laws before, because it really didn't matter a whole lot for anything I was doing. But, after reading the affidavit for arrest of Douglas Haig, I sort of feel like I had a misunderstanding of this law, and I'm guessing that a lot of gun show sellers I've encountered were probably in violation of these laws.
My understanding had always been along the lines of:
It's lawful to have/buy/sell surplus AP ammo, and it's legal to reload AP bullets for personal use, just so long as this isn't pistol ammunition (which was somehow illegal in any AP form).
But, that italicized and summarized version of my understanding came from information told to me over the years by various individual sellers. I never really researched it, because I don't really shoot AP ammo (it's a wasteful way to destroy the steel plate targets I paid good money for).
Anyway, it has been a while, but during the mid and late 1990's and early 2000's I used to frequent a lot of gun shows. It seems like every show I attended had someone (often multiple folks) selling AP ammo, though much of this ammo was surplus stuff. Selling surplus AP ammo wouldn't seem to violate section a(7) of 18 USC 922, but it still appears to violate a(8).
There were also a lot of people at these shows selling bags of black-tipped AP bullets (projectiles only), mostly in the .308 size. These were clearly being sold to reloaders. A lot of these vendors would even keep magnets on their sales tables to prove to people that the bullets had steel cores.
So, where's the real legal line in all of this?
The sections of law I mentioned above seem pretty clear that "armored piercing ammunition" is illegal to manufacture or sell (save for people doing so to the government), but it doesn't really define what "armor piercing" means. Also, the definition of "manufacturing" that seems to be associated with these laws implies that someone is doing so for commercial purposes.
Does that mean that a buyer of a bag of AP bullets is legally allowed to load them for personal use? I'm having trouble believing that's the case when a person who is building an SBR for personal use is still "manufacturing" that rifle in the legal sense, and must comply with NFA laws and file a Form 1 as a manufacturer of such a gun.
After seeing this stuff sold for a decade or more at dozens of gun shows, I kind of wonder how this could all be so illegal!