Robet Levy of Cato Institute believes 21 year old purchase age will withstand challenge

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Aim1

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It appears, if I'm reading it correctly, in his article that he thinks the 21 year old age limit to purchase a rifle will withstand legal challenges.


What do you think?



Levy's a smart guy so it also suprised me when he also made the mistake in saying that adding a bump stock will turn a semi-automatic rifle into an illegal fully automatic one.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/28/opin...econd-amendment-wrong-levy-opinion/index.html



Why the Stevens gun manifesto is beyond irresponsible

By Robert A. Levy

Updated 7:25 PM ET, Wed March 28, 2018

So far, the only Second Amendment challenge (from the NRA) relates to the higher age limit for buying rifles. Many, if not most, legal experts expect that challenge to fail.
 
If there is any age minimum allowed by the courts, then 21 will surely meet their approval. 21 is the dividing line between adult and not for other things like drinking alcoholic beverages. I don’t see gun ownership being much different. There has to be some lower limit. You aren’t going to maintain the 2A legitimizes selling guns to 5 yr olds. So we have established the principle. We are just discussing the details. 21 makes as much sense as 18.

The real issue is whether a parent buying a child a gun as a gift can be construed to be a straw buyer. But considering that under 21s should have no trouble “borrowing” a parent’s or sibling’s firearm, what is the real problem here?
 
If there is any age minimum allowed by the courts, then 21 will surely meet their approval. 21 is the dividing line between adult and not for other things like drinking alcoholic beverages. I don’t see gun ownership being much different. There has to be some lower limit. You aren’t going to maintain the 2A legitimizes selling guns to 5 yr olds. So we have established the principle. We are just discussing the details. 21 makes as much sense as 18.

The real issue is whether a parent buying a child a gun as a gift can be construed to be a straw buyer. But considering that under 21s should have no trouble “borrowing” a parent’s or sibling’s firearm, what is the real problem here?


If you can vote at 18, than you should be able to purchase a gun at 18.


If they want to raise the age to purchase a gun to 21 than do the same for voting.....I bet that wouldn't fly.
 
If you can vote at 18, than you should be able to purchase a gun at 18.


If they want to raise the age to purchase a gun to 21 than do the same for voting.....I bet that wouldn't fly.
Why are the two connected in any way? You are just drawing a false equivalence. Convenient, but still false. I don’t really care what the age is, but I know that 18 is no more sensible than 21.
 
Why are the two connected in any way? You are just drawing a false equivalence. Convenient, but still false. I don’t really care what the age is, but I know that 18 is no more sensible than 21.


How can you say the legal age for adulthood is 18 to vote but 21 to own a gun? It should be one age for adulthood.
 
At one time the legal voting age and the age for the military draft was 21. My dad was drafted in 1942 at age 19. One of the 1st to be drafted after the age limit was reduced. I was 18 when I voted for the 1st time in 1976. I was one of the 1st 18 year olds to be able to vote.

I honestly think 18 year olds, as a group, are less mature than they were years ago.
 
At one time the legal voting age and the age for the military draft was 21. My dad was drafted in 1942 at age 19. One of the 1st to be drafted after the age limit was reduced. I was 18 when I voted for the 1st time in 1976. I was one of the 1st 18 year olds to be able to vote.

I honestly think 18 year olds, as a group, are less mature than they were years ago.
Now that I agree with.
 
I voted at 18 years old in 1974 in Georgia 's Governor Race ... George Busby got my vote ... Democrats hadn't lost their minds at that point in Georgia( Unlike today) ... I had purchased several guns by that time and had been reloading for nine years
 
If there is any age minimum allowed by the courts, then 21 will surely meet their approval. 21 is the dividing line between adult and not for other things like drinking alcoholic beverages. I don’t see gun ownership being much different.

Sure it is. A minor can neither purchase or use alcohol legally.
Safe firearms usage is something can start being taught in childhood. I'm sure many here had a childhood experience much like my own. First BB gun at 6, a 22 at 11 (kept in Dad's safe and used under his supervision), BP rifle at 14, cap and ball revolver at 16, shotgun, 9mm, etc as I got older, along with less and less supervision as I became more proficient and demonstrated the safe use of firearms.

Putting aside the argument whether or not a minor should be allowed to have alcoholic beverages, it's illegal for a child or adolescent to consume alcoholic beverages, let along purchase them.
 
How can you say the legal age for adulthood is 18 to vote but 21 to own a gun? It should be one age for adulthood.
The right to vote at 18 is enshrined in the Constitution (by the 26th Amendment). There is no age limit for owning a gun specified in the 2nd Amendment, so that detail is left up to legislation. Now, the "militia" is defined, in part (under 10 U. S. Code section 246), as consisting of "all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age..." If the 2nd Amendment was interpreted in such a way as to give due weight to the Militia Clause, then it could be argued that the RKBA extended to 17 year olds. Unfortunately, in the Heller decision, Justice Scalia gutted the Amendment by treating the Militia Clause as meaningless "prefatory material." This is just one more way in which we have come to regret the Heller decision.
 
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I agree with Levy and rpenmanparker. There has to be a cutoff age. For years it has been 18 for a long gun and 21 for a handgun. If 21 was legal age limit for a handgun why isn't it also legal for a long gun?
 
Why not



Because they are.

Why do you think they are not connected in any way?
Don’t try to manipulate me. You asserted a position. I asked you to defend it with your reasons. So your reposnse is “why not”? That will convince a lot of people.
 
The right to vote at 18 is enshrined in the Constitution (by the 26th Amendment). There is no age limit for owning a gun specified in the 2nd Amendment, so that detail is left up to legislation. Now, the "militia" is defined, in part (under 10 U. S. Code section 246), as consisting of "all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age..." If the 2nd Amendment was interpreted in such a way as to give due weight to the Militia Clause, then it could be argued that the RKBA extended to 17 year olds. Unfortunately, in the Heller decision, Justice Scalia gutted the Amendment by treating the Militia Clause as meaningless "prefatory material." This is just one more way in which we have come to regret the Heller decision.
Every 2A advocate should wipe the word militia from their memories. It will only bring you grief.
 
Don’t try to manipulate me. You asserted a position. I asked you to defend it with your reasons. So your reposnse is “why not”? That will convince a lot of people.


You're wrong. If anything you have that backwards.

Reread the thread.

You just quoted my 1st post in this thread so therefore I could not have asserted any position before then for you to ask me to defend.

Simply put, I can't defend a post/position I never made.

Again, reread the thread. You asked someone else to defend their position.

Ive heard the other posters position.

I'm asking you to defend yours because you haven't given any reasons why you hold it.

If you have a contrary opinion, I'd like to hear it.
 
As a matter of law, age is a strange category where some discrimination by government on the basis of age is allowed while other applications are not. What complicates matters is that states have the general police power to regulate for the health, safety and welfare of its citizens, the federal government does not.

For example, legal age of contract in all the states is 18. For that reason, A state probably could not criminalize private consensual sex between those of 18 but below age of 21.

The odd thing about alcohol regulation is that the federal government doesn't legally set the drinking age--e.g. it simply cuts off highway funds from states that set their state laws to below 21. States can and did (Louisiana comes to mind) set their drinking age from 18-21--they just lost federal funds if they set it below. The 21st Amendment repealing prohibition also grants states considerable power to regulate alcohol.

Regarding firearms, we have the strange juxtaposition of already constitutionally tested language on handgun sales limited to those of 21 under Congressional commerce clause power. However, states can and have allowed possession of handguns below 21 (not sales of these) which is a police power exercised by the state. Same thing for long arms, states probably could (depending on their constitution) limit possession and sale of firearms to those below 21.

I suspect that Caro is using that chain of reasoning to declare that the federal government has the power to ban sales of long arms to those below 21 based on stare decisis. However, I am not so sure--it depends on whether the federal courts treat the right to self defense, which is mentioned in Heller and MacDonald, as being a right that would be affected by a ban on sales of long arms. I doubt that the federal courts would hold that the government has the power to criminalize possession of long arms to for adults from 18-21 years old directly under existing precedent, law, and custom. (This is apart from firearms used to facilitate a federal crime where the power of the federal government does exist.) A considerable number of 18-21 year old legal adults could constitute a class where they could not exercise the right of self defense unless access existed to some form of firearms. Many of these are independent of their parents.

If the Supremes treat the 2nd like the contracting rights of 18 year olds, then federal laws might be held unconstitutional. If they treat it as something non-essential like alcohol, then SCOTUS might allow it. It might hinge on the vagaries of Justice Kennedy and Chief Justice Roberts. I suspect that the conservative bloc of Alito, Thomas, and now Gorsuch, are not forcing 2A issues because of the wobbly Chief Justice and the unpredictable Justice Kennedy. If Kennedy or a liberal justice retires, then you might see movement.
 
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You're wrong. If anything you have that backwards.

Reread the thread.

You just quoted my 1st post in this thread so therefore I could not have asserted any position before then for you to ask me to defend.

Simply put, I can't defend a post/position I never made.

Again, reread the thread. You asked someone else to defend their position.

Ive heard the other posters position.

I'm asking you to defend yours because you haven't given any reasons why you hold it.

If you have a contrary opinion, I'd like to hear it.
I have to first hear the reasons from the person making the assertion. That is how a discussion works. His assertion was unsupported. I actually never said in that post I disagreed with it. I just asked for his rationale.
 
Here is the conversation between us. Do you deny you said that all adulthood qualifications should occur at age 18? It is right there in the second sentence above. You made that assertion. I asked you why that was true. You replied, “Why not?”


Look at who you're quoting.

You're quoting Aim1, not me. I didn't say it.

You expressed a belief and are responsible for defending it when asked to do so.

That surely applies to yourself too.
 
Every 2A advocate should wipe the word militia from their memories. It will only bring you grief.
The next Supreme Court gun case, whether it deals with AWB's, age limits, etc., has to address the "militia" issue. Remember that Justice Scalia, in Heller, although he treated the Militia Clause as a nullity, did not explicitly overrule the Miller case. That has to be clarified. The pro-gun side needs to be honing its "militia" arguments. If we agree with the Founders that militia membership is universal, and that the militia should be as well armed as the standing army, that puts the 2nd Amendment RKBA in a whole new light. (You could not deny civilian ownership of machine guns, or set an age limit higher than the defined age for the militia, for example.)

(Congress could amend 10 U.S.C. 246 so that militia membership started at age 21, but that would mean that people younger than 21 could not be drafted, if and when the draft returned. Everything is interrelated.)
 
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