Levy distanced from NRA for Heller

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/29/sunday/main4217235.shtml

Targeting The Supreme Court

How A Libertarian Who's Never Owned A Gun Brought The Decisive Case On The Second Amendment

June 29th, 2008

(CBS) Supreme Court decisions always have the potential to make headlines and provoke debate. Case in point: Its ruling this week on the right to own a gun. It's a cause one man worked long and hard to bring before the court, as we hear in our Cover Story reported by Martha Teichner.
Outside the Supreme Court the battle was still being fought as the decision was announced - the 5-4 ruling overturned Washington, D.C.'s ban on handgun ownership and explicitly stated for the first time that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun for self-defense.

Washington mayor Adrian Fenty's disappointment was palpable. "More handguns in the District of Columbia will only lead to more handgun violence," he said.

Chicago mayor Richard M. Daley, bracing for an attack on his city's gun law. He said the Court's decision in District of Columbia v. Heller is "very frightening" for America.

"Why don't we do away with the court system?" Daley said. "The old West - you have a gun and I have a gun and we'll settle on the street."

Within 24 hours, the National Rifle Association and like-minded groups had filed lawsuits against Chicago and San Francisco. Their aim: to test whether the court's decision has implications for all 50 states, not just the District of Columbia.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA, said, "The NRA views this as the opening salvo, as a step-by-step process of bringing relief to citizens all over the country that have been denied access to that freedom.

"The Second Amendment as an individual right now becomes an important part of the American constitutional law, and that's monumental," he said.

How did it happen? Why this particular case? Why now? It took exactly the right cast of characters, perfect timing, and the determination of a lawyer named Robert Levy who knew just how to play the game.

"The financing for this came out of my pocket," he told Teichner.

Levy's story is remarkable: He got rich in finance, but cashed out and went to law school at the age of 50. (He's now 66.) This is the only lawsuit he's ever litigated.

He's never even owned a gun.

"The gun part of it is, I don't know that I'd say it was incidental, but certainly my primary interest was in vindicating the Constitution and the meaning of the Second Amendment."

Levy is a libertarian, a senior fellow at libertarianism's philosophical brain trust, the Cato Institute in Washington.

"We believe in free markets, individual liberty, private property and, most of all, strictly limited government," Levy said. "We don't like the government in our wallets, and we don't like the government in our bedrooms, so we're very happy to be a bridge between the left and the right, particularly on this issue, which has separated so many on the left and the right."

Levy deliberately distanced himself from the NRA.

"We didn't want to be identified with the usual gun lobby groups," he said. "This was the case that we brought because of our interest in the Constitution."


Levy hand-picked his plaintiff, security guard Richard Heller, and then calculated that the Supreme Court would move to the right before the case managed to get there.

"When we filed the case, in 2003, Justices Alito and Roberts had not yet joined the Court, but it did appear that over the near term there would be replacements of Chief Justice Rehnquist, and Justice O'Conner suggested that she might retire, and of course that did come to pass," he said.

And in Justice Antonin Scalia, who wrote the majority opinion, Levy had the perfect match with his own strict originalist views of the Constitution - in other words what the founding fathers intended.

Recently on 60 Minutes, Scalia said, "Sometimes people come to me and in, you know, 'Justice Scalia, when did you first become an originalist?' You know, as though it's some weird affliction - 'When did you start eating human flesh?'"

"What you're saying is, 'Let's try to figure out the mind-set of people back 200 years ago, right?'" asked Lesly Stahl.

"Well, it isn't a mind-set, it's what did the words mean to the people who ratified the Bill of Rights or who ratified the Constitution," Scalia said.

The D.C. gun ban suit was a chance to take on the Second Amendment, with its reference of militia … its awkward commas … its ambiguity.

"I don't think the Supreme Court was backed into a corner to decide this case," said CBS News legal analyst Andrew Cohen. "I think there was enough folks on the court now with the change, with the addition of Samuel Alito, so that they wanted to do it.

"The problem is you have a horribly drafted Second Amendment," Cohen added. "The people who drafted the Second Amendment were just as addled and just as conflicted and contradictory as modern day politicians are when it comes to these tough issues."

Which may not be surprising, according to R.B. Bernstein, a constitutional historian at New York Law School, who said. "Constitutions are political documents and constitutional amendments are political documents. They're written by politicians. They're shaped by the forces of politics."

"I'm tempted to say to originalists sometimes, that you may believe that there is a Santa Claus bringing neatly wrapped packages of original intent, understanding or meaning for good little consitutional interpreters," Bernstein said, "but just as there is no Santa Claus, there is no originalist Santa Claus. We do the best we can with the language we've got."

In fact, in this case, the Court's interpretation of the Second Amendment is very much in line with public opinion.

According to a recent Gallup poll, more than seven out of ten Americans agree with the Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment does guarantee the right to own a gun.

But here's another statistic: Approximately 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year.

We asked Robert Levy, who brought about the Supreme Court decision, does it matter to you that people might die because of it?

"Well of course, it matters," he said. "And I think it's indisputably true that there will be people who die because of this ruling. There will be other people who would have died were it not for this ruling, and so one has to take into account not just the cost but the benefits."
 
I think that's what scared many in the NRA and the gun groups in general.

This was almost a philosophical argument for the arguments sake.

If Levy had lost this the rest of us would have paid the price and he'd simply have found another hobby to amuse himself.

That's why many of the pro gun rights groups were unsure of this, shooters had skin in the game and the person fighting on our behalf didn't.

But since it's worked out in our favor we can all breathe a sigh of relief and move on.

It's great that this worked out the way it did and Levy is now a hero of the gun folks, deservedly so, but it could certainly have gone the other way.
 
"When we filed the case, in 2003, Justices Alito and Roberts had not yet joined the Court, but it did appear that over the near term there would be replacements of Chief Justice Rehnquist, and Justice O'Conner suggested that she might retire, and of course that did come to pass," he said.

Yes, that was a pretty big bet to lay down considering that both left the Court after the 2004 election and nobody knew how that was going to turn out in 2003. Just thinking about what might have happened had that gone the other way makes my stomach churn.
 
According to a recent Gallup poll, more than seven out of ten Americans agree with the Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment does guarantee the right to own a gun.

But here's another statistic: Approximately 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year.

We asked Robert Levy, who brought about the Supreme Court decision, does it matter to you that people might die because of it?

"Well of course, it matters," he said. "And I think it's indisputably true that there will be people who die because of this ruling. There will be other people who would have died were it not for this ruling, and so one has to take into account not just the cost but the benefits."
So, what's the US population right now? And leftists want to deprive every single one of us our 2nd Amendment rights because a fraction of those people die, without any refrence to if they were the criminals who were killed or the innocent?

I would think that more innocent people's lives will be saved, and more criminal scumbags will die because of this, as opposed to disarming the innocent and law-abiding to the mercy of those who ignore the law.
 
Gun violence in the District of Columbia may, or may not, increase.

But some of the violence involving handguns will be homeowners shooting home intruders. Or a business owner defending himself during a felony robbery.

The MSM won't make a differentiation between those two scenarios and a banger shooting a banger.

They will just report another shooting on the evening news, with a photo of a GLOCK17 on the blue screen behind the anchorman.
 
In some areas of the country, being affiliated with the NRA is a bad thing as far as politics are concerned. DC and MD is one of those areas.

Kharn
 
If Levy had lost this the rest of us would have paid the price and he'd simply have found another hobby to amuse himself.

Pay WHAT price? Before this case was brought almost no laws, and no bans, had been overturned by ANY court on Second Amendment grounds. We started from ZERO. That's what I find so infuriating about these arguments. Before Heller WE HAD NOTHING IN THE COURTS! A few circuits and district courts had played with the Second in a favorable way, but nothing on the magnitude of Heller. A clear majority of circuits and legal authority considered the Second dead letter.
 
I believe that only a portion of that statistic are gun deaths.

The last injury mortality report statistics I can muster from CDC are from 2005. 12,352 homicides are firearm related.


Yeah, the like to include suicides in the "Gun Violence" category.

And teen gang bangers are called "children".



News: "11 children die from gun violence every day."

Actuality: 11 members of the Crips and Bloods shoot each other every day.
 
Of far greater concern is that most gun owners distance themselves from the NRA and other legitimate organizations that defend their rights.

So what these gun owners need is a pool of wealthy lawyers who will defend the Second Amendment rights of everyone at their own expense. Most gun owners want it, expect it, and deserve it.

Then those gun owners can be hard hitting gun rights activists by taking an anti shooting once in a while, sending some tough e-mails to their congresscritters, buying guns to bury in their backyards, and posting messages complaining that nobody is doing nothing to help them.

About those 11 children who are killed every day: that's got to hurt. Maybe they can get a day off every now and then?
 
The fact that someone felt they needed to distance themselves from the NRA in front of the supposedly impartial supreme court shows just how bad the publics image of pro-2A lobbies have eroded. Even my dad, a staunch conservative, has referred to the NRA as "radical". The MSM, bowling for columbine, liberal reporters and activist "scientists" that consistently cherry pick statistics have all but defecated on the image of freedom.

We have the upper hand now. Maybe would should double up or efforts on fighting on these fronts.

Freedom needs it's own movie, one with similar impact that Moore's does.
Freedom needs it's voice in print.
Freedom needs it's voice on TV news.
Freedom needs scientists (easily found in the engineering community) that will expose these 'violence prevention' researchers.

Until we have these we are simply lying down and letting helicopter liberals and emotionally driven people trample on reason, trample on the image of the 'terrorist' heat shroud, trample on real science, trample on the NRA and trample on the Bill of Rights.

It should not be this way. We should be EMBARRASSING anti's with their own words, EMBARRASSING them on their own networks and EMBARRASSING them in their own homes. We have more than enough ammunition to do so. We should make it impossible for them to ignore what Scalia calls their "bizarre" and "Mad Hatter" mentality.
 
I don't care about Levy's association with the NRA or any previous working relationships or lack thereof.

He got the job done on the case, and opened the door for us to finish it.

Earns the man beer rights in any gun owner's house IMO.
 
Statistics

are widely misused.
First subtract felon on felon gun violence, usually drug, turf or ego related.
Then, take out domestic violence, usually occurring in the home, very difficult to police before the fact.
Now, subtract gun suicides, suicides have a tendency to find a way.
Now, you are left with a small residue of "senseless gun violence."
 
Before Heller WE HAD NOTHING IN THE COURTS! A few circuits and district courts had played with the Second in a favorable way, but nothing on the magnitude of Heller. A clear majority of circuits and legal authority considered the Second dead letter.

Certainly true, but we also had at the very least a questionable standing. If the Supremes had clearly said the Second was not an individual right do you really believe NOTHING would have changed?
 
Levy for president in 2012? I don't know what else he stands for yet but as a Libertarian he can't be all bad. Since he's already famous for this case, the media might pay more attention to him than some of the other candidates the libertarians have offered.

He may not be interested but I think someone should pitch the idea to him!
 
Another very nasty part of the statistics...

Person is stabbed with a knife while walking thru downtown DC. Person owns a gun, but it's locked away in a safe at home. It's counted as a "Gun Related Death" because the victim owned a gun.
 
It would have been nice for Gura et al. to not give validation to a lot of the anti's rhetoric in the trial. Maybe Scalia would have left it out of the decision.
 
But here's another statistic: Approximately 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year.
Yes, but remove all of the statistical noise - suicides; domestic violence; crime related, gang activity, drug wars, felon on felon, premeditated murders, etc. - and what is the number?

Driving is a privilege not a right and countless innocent victims are killed by repeat drunken drivers who have lost the privilege to drive and continue to do so. These tragedies are much more predictable and preventable than true random gun related deaths yet they occur with increasing frequency because of Judicial failure or inability to act because of issues of personal freedoms.

Unfettered access to sexually explicit material undoubtedly contributes to the incidence of sexually oriented crimes; yet, this material is protected by the First Amendment. I am not equating Second Amendment rights with pornography, and I don't mean to be cavalier, crass, or uncaring, but freedoms come with a price and that price is unfortunately sometimes paid by the innocent.
 
Wacki, until now,gunnies have been afraid to do anything to 'embarass' the antis. Collectively, we've relegated ourselves to the role of "mole" in a political 'Whack-a-mole' game. We were wary of drawing attention to ourselves for fear of giving the antis ammunition to use against us.

It hasn't just been the individual gunnies either. The NRA, that "800 pound gorilla" we keep hearing about, did everything it could to scuttle this case even before it came before the District Court. Why? Some say it was because they don't really want gun control to go away. Most though, feel it was because they (the NRA) felt the case couldn't be won.

Whatever. The case was won and gunnies all over America won too. Now we have to shake off our earlier reluctance to make waves and push the envelope of freedom beyond the boundaries the politicians have set for us.

I've been told that Ben Franklin felt the wild turkey was a better symbol of America than the bald eagle. Perhaps the turtle should have been suggested too since - like people - it doesn't get anywhere until it sticks its neck out.
 
It's a case that made many people nervous in the pro-gun rights and anti-gun rights crowd. At 5-4 it's still a decision that makes me nervous since it appeared to have split down through the ideological barriers that have been set up in this country.

From my understanding, most Constitutional scholars over the years have come to the (in my opinion) obvious conclusion that the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right.

This makes me very curious how 4 intelligent learned judges came to the conclusion that it does not.

At any rate, I was happy that this case was being heard by the Supreme Court and am relieved by the results.

However, the "reasonable restrictions" angle makes me very nervous.

For example, one can argue that free speech does not entail yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Yet that obviously contains malicious intent. Does purchasing a fully automatic rifle entail malicious intent? Of course not. So why are some going down this road?
 
If the Supremes had clearly said the Second was not an individual right do you really believe NOTHING would have changed?

Nothing on the legal front. It would have confirmed the standard, well-accepted theory that I learned in law school and those before me learned in law school.

On the political front, it would have energized the gun rights movement and probably helped McCain.
 
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